It's nice stuff ... and a heck of a show by Carl Palmer showing everyone what drumming is about ... it's not the "count" ... it's the coloring of the music itself, and the timing is somewhat secondary, depending on the quality of the expression ... and he really made it special ... and has been for some time, one of my favorite things to watch in concert ... a drummer that knows what he is doing, instead of keeping time for everyone else which is used by musicians with a lot less talent. 

Even RF has stated that it is not about the beat ... it's about listening to each other, in the film. It's hard for us to quantify that given that things in KC are so tightly knit, but you see it in concert and the quality is there ... 

thanks, mosh, it is nice.....what you say is interesting and spot on...Carl Palmer is amazing, so imaginative and creative...btw, the concert is available in complete audio on cd-called "Back In The Fatherland"-this is the only film footage of it I know of

       Don't know if you are familiar with drummer Peter Giger, but he is another "Titan of the Drums" and so creative, it's mind blowing

Re Carl Palmer he was a real drumming beast and was still playing great when ELP toured on the back of Works in 1977-78. After that he changed his style (for the worst imo) and never really got it back.

(I'll give this a shot ... and this is all ad-lib!)

The sad truth is that the drummers that did something totally different from anyone else (Moonie, Bonzo, Palmer) ... were folks that depended on the quality and design of the material they were doing ... and the more expressive it was, the better for them to find how to make the music come alive. One of my bad comments about so much "progressive music" is how the instrumentation changes ... and the dumming? Keeps the same thing going ... which is bizarre ... and you know the music is losing its touch!

Moonie and Bonzo, basically "killed their band", though the Who continued, but never could ignite the touch ... but ELP, I think had run out of gas/ideas and what Keith wanted to do, they were not exactly able to and it cost them dearly. In one special, I think that both Greg and Carl suggested that a lot of their feeling went out when they took a serious lashing for the whole orchestra thing not to mention a money loss.

On the other hand, there is also the thought/idea that physically, it is impossible to continue like that for 20 years, specially if the music no longer has the touch that allowed for it to be seen like we have in their early material. Genesis had the same issue, when Phil stopped drumming, and its touch was gone, and many times I felt it was just "keeping time" with the new material ... and not making the music better like Phil had done. PF lost the Mason touch because RW wanted just a more mechanical touch to make sure his vocals were better heard and seen, and Mason's style was much more flowing and not exactly about the 123 (thus Nick's joke ... maybe take some drumming lessons!), and not exactly dependent on the snare drum, as most drummers these days are way too much to keep time.

I also think that a lot of seventies drummers embraced the jazz thing with that particular grip on the drum sticks and also set their kits up quite low down so they were crouched over them. That way they could get more 'feel'. Then later on drum kits were being put on risers and drummers were sitting more straight up.THis culture clash was represented by the Focus drummers. Watch Pierre's footage compared to when Colin Allen joined the band. Both were good but you can see and hear the musical divide and an indication as to where drumming was going. Nowadays you can still hear and see that with some modern more percussive drummers such as Marco and then you have the insane playing of Brann Dailor (Mastadon). Both are great but represent the different approaches quite well.

Fact is the seventies isn't coming back (apart from Norway lol) but there are some nice echoes of it about if you look. 

Hi,

I lean more towards the fact that the American FM radio was playing completely new material that was not, and had not been on the previous hit bullpucky. And one of the best things to show case was the "difference", which folks like Frank Zappa was already doing, but in those days, only the LA Free Press wrote about Frank, and specified where the Mothers would play next.

Today, the Internet is hurting ... I'm against the top numbers because it tends to bury the majority of the bands and their work, besides the fact that almost no one will write anything on the new material and bands, with one or two exceptions now and then. This is the sadness of the top anything ... it gives the idea that some material is better than the other, and you and I KNOW that is not the case at all ... otherwise we would be discussing Taylor Swift now ... I'm surprised it hasn't happened!

The fact that the media was not as "visible" as it is now, meant that in 1972, you only knew who was number 1 if you listened to the hit radio (AM Radio), and by that time I can tell you that they were 2 hugely different audiences ... but the "openness" of the ability to play something else (the station Guy was in had 5 or 6 folks that played totally different stuff ... and he played none of the hits none of the time!) and they were very visible ... and while this may have had bits of jazz, of rock of this and that ... I mean hearing Waylon Jennings next to Bob Dylan and Willie Nelson, and then Simon and Garfunkel, and then Lizard Skynard, and then CSN&Y and then Velvet Underground and then ... back to back, was kinda different and interesting ... thus, the material that was more adventurous, usually got the attention a lot more than the "hits", most of which started dropping like flies and AM radio became the joke for us that the music industry was losing it! 

richardh wrote: ... Nowadays you can still hear and see that with some modern more percussive drummers such as Marco and then you have the insane playing of Brann Dailor (Mastadon). Both are great but represent the different approaches quite well. ...

I'll re-check, but last time I saw Marco was with Steven Wilson and I have to tell you I was not impressed. It had the touch here and there, but in the end ... it was just 1234 and nothing more that I could see, with lots of little things in between that made it look better and more interesting. Heck, I saw Bill Bruford do it better!

My idea is that the commercial standing and presentation of too much music, is the problem, and many bands/folks find the need to have something in them that is recognizable QUICKLY, so as to not to lose a listener within 10 seconds (let's say ) ... and when we keep posting what is supposedly the best ... at least it is not related to sales that don't exist!!! ... I think that a lot of the material that comes from many outlier places, get left behind and not heard ... and few folks on PA actually write on these things ... but they are always ready to write on the top 5, which really, suggests that their listening habits are centered on the "known", not in various other spots.

richardh wrote: ... Fact is the seventies isn't coming back (apart from Norway lol) but there are some nice echoes of it about if you look.

Nor would I want them back ... you think I want to relive through being frisked by the NG in Madison while going to work at the Rathskeller? Not to mention the very obvious abuse of them doing it to women as well! But no one listened to women complaints in those days!