PA Album of the Year Discussion thread
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=132372
Printed Date: November 27 2024 at 05:09
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: PA Album of the Year Discussion thread
Posted By: Logan
Subject: PA Album of the Year Discussion thread
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 12:34
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Since the https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=132143" rel="nofollow - PA Album of the Year open to PA members (read OP) got rather convoluted with official lists, non official lists, tech discussion, rules discussion, discussion on albums, discussion on discussions (we're trying something very new, and amazing how well it came together with a lot of hard work from Mike), I am creating this topic to move posts from the older topic into that are not user lists for the album of the year. Feel free to rap about your choices here etc. and use the other topic for your lists intended for the AOTY event. Thanks. And a note: Please have your lists in and finalised by the end of January, 2023. |
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 12:57
^ Sure, having a lot of discussion in this thread is not a problem at all for the results collection.  And people can post informal lists here as well (like Saperlipopette did above), they will just not be included in the calculation. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 13:01
| ^ Thanks, sounds good. I do like the informal. I do hope that Saperlipopette! and others do post lists for the calculation, but that's up to them. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 13:14
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I've just implemented two new features for the tool: 1. Text search for the selection, just type part of the artist or release name to find a release. 2. On the https://awesomeprog.com/aoty-poll?area=results" rel="nofollow - results page only one user chart at a time is shown, there is a dropdown which you can the users already considered (currently there are a few collabs who have already posted their lists in an internal beta-testing thread). 3. I've fixed the link back to the pa forum on the collection page (it still linked to the internal thread). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 20:47
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Weirdly I'm not seeing my votes in the individual table any more by they've still been counted in the totals. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 22:23
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Look for the dropdown on the results page in the right column, you can select which user to display. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 23:40
I won't splice my favorites into prog and none prog. I don't mind at all not being included for calculation. Imo the five artists/groups not on PA among my first six mentioned - are progressive artists good as any anyway.
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Logan wrote:Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 01 2023 at 23:51
I have two lists myself as I care about more than what is in PA. One I labelled in PA and the other not in PA. It's more practical to have some restrictions for the actual PA album of the year. with Mike's website, he has the albums in PA ready to go. If it's there it's includable for the "Albums in PA" part. Other albums and bands may be added later. I often don't think the Prog/ non-Prog dichotomy works. So much of what I like I consider under that umbrella whether it's in PA or not. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: December 02 2023 at 00:26
There is indeed an inconvenience about setting up a list strictly about whatever is included in PA's DB. I've found that increasingly frustrating to have to convince (often to no avail) some stubborn PA collab or the slowness of some teams to at least listen and come quick to a declsion about inclusion. part of the issue is the presence of the DB itself (which is a pride in itself) as a bibble. It's even happened that I've been denied a vote for an artist that will find its way onto our DB a couple of years later (can't remember who, though). Soooooooooo, I've been setting up separate lists for years, publishing them both on PA, PE, JMA & R6070 (I think you know bout the last one). Whatever doesn't fit into whatever PA declares "prog" finds itself on the other list and that's that. but indeed the construction of the list happens in the same bag of albums and one of the harder chores is actually to go check whatever is on our DB and setting aside what isn't. . ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 02 2023 at 07:10
Right, got that, how do I edit it to add new stuff and resort? ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 02 2023 at 09:29
^ You just post a new list in this thread, and your chart will be updated when I collect the results ... 
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 02 2023 at 15:24
Still waiting for the first non-collab list ...  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 03 2023 at 02:52
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^ Nice! Added to the chart Only 9 users have voted, but there‘s already 118 releases in the chart. 2023 is a really good year for prog! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 03 2023 at 10:13
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^^ Thanks George. I had asked to open this up to non-Collabs and got agreement and was beginning to wonder if that was a mistake, thinking there's a reason why people who opted to become Collabs would be more likely to participate (collaborate), and it's in the title of Collaborator. You would be a superb collab, by the way, but not all have the time or inclination. I think it would be a wonderful participatory exercise if more people did collaborate on this. That said, there's still a while to go for this year, and some might want to wait. of course one can add to and edit ones choices later. I still have lots of listening to do and albums to discover. I like that Goat album, had only heard it once. Had loved what I heard of Teeth of the Sea, and listening to the album now, and that will go to my list later I'm confident. Had heard some Agusa before too and liked it. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: December 03 2023 at 17:36
I'm disappointed that you (an administrator) think non-collabs input in this poll was a "mistake". Care to explain your comment? And when the results are complete could you post how many collabs and non-collabs participated? |
Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: December 03 2023 at 18:21
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^I interpreted Greg's comment to mean that he was thinking he made a mistake in asking for non-collaborators to participate because of lack of response. I think he wants non-collaborator participation and is not opposed to it. This is only the first week in December so I think most people (collaborators and non) need time. My list will change. I know that. I have albums that I still want to hear. But, I wanted to give some input now. And to give Mike's setup a try. It's really nice. I think collaborators are more likely to hear a wide breadth of new releases and possibly more inclined to do so. I think this system/set up is nice with the understanding to have people rank what they do know and you can see rankings as they happen. I find it useful to see what is "popular" among participants in the forum rather than just having ratings. PA's limitation to whole number of stars doesn't help distinguish albums. I prefer these types of lists over just ratings to get recommendations for myself. |
Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: December 03 2023 at 18:35
I don't always have the time to be a collaborator. I jumped in on this as I had taken some time off from work without going anywhere. Until then, I hadn't posted here for a few weeks. Goat's tribal psych sound has appealed to me from the first time I have heard them. They are among the first "new" bands I learned about when I started reading PA forums 10 years ago. Their albums don't have many ratings but someone had written convincingly enough in a forum post that I listened to their debut album World Music. I streamed them through my Amazon account and that lead to my personal exploration and discovery of current psychedelic music artists. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: December 03 2023 at 19:49
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 03 2023 at 21:25
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^ Will, Traditionally the PA albums of the year has just been for collabs (aka, 4 and 5 star people plus VIP titled people). For years I have wanted this open to all members for greater input and collaboration from all who wish to take part. We have had lower turnout and I suggested that we open this up to our general community. Others agreed, which led to this topic. I don't regret it, but I was feeling rather insecure about this before George's list. Things got off to a bit of a rocky start, and insecure me was worried that this would not be received well. I was sad about the timing with your thread. Of course I did not know you would be making a topic. I wasn't thinking I made a mistake, more that I had been concerned that this might not be as well accepted or appreciated as I had hoped by the general community and those people whom I interact with at the forum. Just some poorly expressed casual banter from me. Sorry for not being clear. One should be able to see the people who voted at Mike's site, I think. I was not planning to be the one to post the results. EDIT: and in this thread which is the thread for people to post their list. I would not expect the numbers of collabs and non-collabs to be posted in the results thread, but those who are interested can see who contributed from this thread and Mike's chart. It's important to me that it is a group effort and I would rather it not matter if one is a collab or not for participation. It's about the PA community coming together to do this. The more people who participate, the more I would like it. Of course it's early days and I would not expect a lot of lists yet. I would not expect my list to be finalised before some time into January, and I;m sure some would rather wait |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 03 2023 at 23:59
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^ I can and will tweak the chart in the coming days and weeks, I will of course add these statistics. Finally all the data will be exported and posted in a forum thread, just like with the previous polls, so that nobody needs to go to AP to see the results. Specifically, I can of course determine who is a collab and who is not, and I'll be able to compile participant lists. We could also have separate charts (e.g. non-collabs, collabs and combined), which would be interesting. Some prog magazines do similar things (e.g. a readers chart and an editors chart).
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Lumenko
Date Posted: December 04 2023 at 06:03
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These are my ten nominees. They are all in the Progarchives' database. 1. Dominic Sanderson "Impermanence" 2. Gong "Unending Ascending" 3. Ozric Tentacles "Lotus Unfolding" 4. Zopp "Dominion" 5. I Am The Manic Whale "Bumper Book of Mystery Stories" 6. Yes "Mirror to the Sky" 7. Uriah Heep "Chaos & Colour" 8. Napier's Bones "Cells" 9. Teeth of the Sea "Hive" 10. Big Big Train "Ingenious Devices" |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 04 2023 at 06:05
You need to upload them here https://awesomeprog.com/aoty-poll" rel="nofollow - https://awesomeprog.com/aoty-poll Instructions are in the opening post of the thread. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Lumenko
Date Posted: December 04 2023 at 06:34
| ^^ Oh, I was terribly mistaken to believe that we should carry out the entire procedure on this page. I apologise. Please don't think my nominees are legitimate, and that's it. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 04 2023 at 08:01
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I'm sure your picks are fine, you just need to post them on that site. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: December 04 2023 at 10:25
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It's against my nature, but I will try to come up with a list. Listing 20 albums isn't the most difficult part (from the 30 or so 2023 prog albums I listened to, thus far), ranking them is the most criminal part in the operation... I still want to listen to a couple of albums that I'm curious about (knowing that there are plenty that I'm not curious about at all) and waiting for the release of an album that I'm impatient to listen to but that will only come out at the end of next week... ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 04 2023 at 15:32
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^ All valid lists have been counted. Keep them coming! @Lumenko: Your list is as good as any other, but in order to get it into the chart, you need to use the tool at AP to compile the list. It is necessary because the script which collects the results reads the { ap:... } markers. Without those your list simply cannot be scanned. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: December 04 2023 at 16:51
There are a few ideal suspects for the final PA 2023 top list in that list, IMHO. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 04 2023 at 22:19
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^ Which ones? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 05 2023 at 15:50
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I modified the https://awesomeprog.com/aoty-poll?area=results" rel="nofollow - results page a little bit to better visualize the participants. Still mostly (special) collabs ... you can change that with a couple of clicks ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 05 2023 at 16:23
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Normally Tapfret would ask for the list in late December or in January……I’ll start working on my list for submission. Glad there will be more participation. -------------   
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: December 05 2023 at 16:29
I've opened my list this evening 45 albums at first thought
Are these all lists (and points alloted) already final?? TBH, I don't like the idea of knowing the album results before I place & enter my own choices. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 05 2023 at 17:47
...I too am in this camp of thinking....creates possibility of voter fraud....Phuq me!!  -------------
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 05 2023 at 18:27
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Then don't look! Got to think it will be open until at least the end of January. I know I'll change mine a bunch. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 05 2023 at 22:14
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''Voter fraud'' , we are aren't electing the next president of the universe
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 05 2023 at 23:20
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I don't know how this was done the last time ... I agree with Ian, if you don't want to know the result before it is made final, you can choose to just not look. But if it's about nobody else being able to look - I could implement that, if more people think it matters. One solution would be to just show all the individual user lists on the results page until no more votes are accepted. The good thing about how it is currently implemented is that only real forum users can vote, and there can only be one list per user. If we really start to see attempts of manipulation (e.g. lots of brand new forum users casting votes) we could look at excluding these (e.g. joined before this month). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 05 2023 at 23:29
The page at AP is merely a tool to compile your list. You cast your vote by posting the list here in this thread. This is where the connection is made between the list and your forum user name. Editing the list is simply a matter of posting a new one here, where the script will read it and update your data on the chart (since lists from newer posts replace those from old ones). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 01:51
We're not talking of stuffing ballots boxes here  (and we're excluding Svettie before he starts voting all serbian artistes.  )Well, in previous years, we were able to see other collab's temporary or in-progress lists allright, but we never saw them compiled until the votes were closed, which meant that you actually had to start counting and adding if you wanted to skew the polls. Even final lists, we could see them for the early posters. And we had no problems with that (seeing the collabss lists), because they actually told us on what we may have missed out on. We had concertation & discussions between us, like almost every site that sets up yearly top lists. In some cases, we even hurried to include an artist in the DB (yup, that DB inclusion rule again) so we could vote for it. With your system here you can see that Zopp's second album (which is IMHO lesser than the debut) has such a high advance in terms of points that one might not give them points since they don't need it. Sooooo, it's not the access to different lists that I'm objecting to, but opening the link you gave us and seeing the results already compiled (if only partially) that's an issue (with me, anyways). Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your efforts to get this done , if only because we're not sure we could get it done this year, given the sorry state of the site.BTW, I'm posting again via Edge, cos too many things are not available via Firefox. .
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 07:42
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Hi, Sometimes I wish I could share/suggest a bunch of preferences and numbers. But I can't. In a house with 40K books of literature, it is difficult to think that one of those is crapola, and the other is a masterpiece. They are all different, and I look at a lot of music, exactly the same way, despite some folks not thinking that is the right thing to do. There is way too much different stuff from all over the world, and one thing I'm really proud to see ... and it is a varied list for a change. There was one of these a few years ago, when folks listed the topXYZZZ and it had the same band/group listed several times, which took the ability and chance of others from around the world to be seen, heard and listed. I was very happy for the folks here, when almost all of them immediately adjusted their listings ... and all of a sudden you had something way more important and valuable, and a serious appreciation for the artistic works of other folks around the globe. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 08:25
I can see a situation where it may be tempting to leave an album out of a list on that basis but at the end of the day if it's down at say NO18 then it's not going to be a big deal to you and conversely if it's high up (say NO5) then it feels like you would be shooting yourself in the foot. I can't imagine that anyone would want to misrepresent themselves to keep out a particular band. I remember IQ's Resistance being the least 'popular' winner of a AOTY poll back in 2019 with some real expressed disappointment from some collabs but then I'm sure the same people expressing that opinion just didn't include them at all on their lists.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 09:59
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^ Here's an important observation: Some of us have listened to a LOT of albums from 2023, some have not. I have listened to more than 250, and my top 20 is comprised ONLY of releases that are completely awesome (to me). Someone else on the other hand who has only listened to 20 releases (hypothetically) might indeed not particularly care about their #18. I would recommend that everyone who puts up a list only includes releases they would recommend (or in other words: awesome releases). There's no point in including bad or mediocre releases just because you have listened to them - putting up a shorter list is better in that case. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 13:27
Yes we are....the top album is the leader of the prog universe for a 12 month term. -------------
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Posted By: Mirakaze
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 14:19
You're right, the proper term is match fixing ------------- https://mirasnelder.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow - Freelance composer, accepting commissions | https://mirasnelder.bandcamp.com/album/altered-acuity" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp page |
Posted By: Lumenko
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 15:05
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 15:09
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^ You can still use the time until end of January to get Legs on Wheels into the database ... in the meantime you can use my tool to make your list count ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 15:55
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Small improvement: I added a separate tab for the combined chart, so you can check the lists of individual users without seeing the end result. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Lumenko
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 16:06
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 16:20
Yeah but the No1 album gets 20 points and the No 20 album only gets 1 point. This in itself downgrades the lower placed albums quite severely so really if they are mediocre then it doesn't matter in terms of rankings. Personally I hear a lot of 4 star albums but not that many real masterpeices. I could quite easily just have Zopp - Dominion on my list and have done with it. |
Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 16:43
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For me, the final collective ranking doesn't matter. Seeing people's lists is great because it clues me in on possible awesome (to me music) that I have missed. I will just think that most people here are listing by there own ears and not considering positioning. I do look at the overall list as such that even the last album on the list was at least someone's 20th most awesome album of the year. I will probably update my list in another week. Already have two albums since last time that will knock out my bottom two. And I may reevaluate and reorder some albums on my list because that's how I am. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 23:26
No you did not - the only relevant thread as to the report that will be generated is this thread. But if it makes you happy, go ahead thinking you did
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 23:28
Well, I think in this case you still have some listening to do ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 06 2023 at 23:30
Yes, I think that browsing through the individual lists can be very valuable. I'll try to make that simpler on the results page as well as in the final report. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 00:00
I've managed about 60-70 albums all told , most being the usual suspects. Nowadays I don't bother unless the band is available for streaming and that sometimes rules out certain bands like IO Earth for instance who seem to avoid Apple like the plague (maybe sensibly). Since I went part time after the pandemic I just don't have the disposable income to buy a bunch of CD's which have now got very expensive. I'm happy with most of what I've heard this year and it's been a remarkably strong year with even the old 'gits' such as Yes, Tull and Uriah Heep putting out decent albums. Most things I've 'rejected' such as King Gizzard and Swans has been purely on the basis of taste (or lack of in my case) not because they are bad in any way. I am guided a lot by the front of the site but it's nice to pick up recommendations any which way. I remember a few years ago Waste Of Space Orchestra - Syntheosis getting a bit of late 'buzz' from the collabs. I didn't include it in my list at the time but now regard it as a masterpeice and wish I had included it. Unfortunately I will inevitably end up late to the party when it comes to some albums.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 00:16
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^ Yes, that IO Earth album is one of the very few releases that are neither available on Spotify nor on Bandcamp. Have a look at the user results, there are links to Spotify and/or Bandcamp for every release (look for the icons on the cover art). But of course all this boils down to taste - and there are so many releases that if you listen to 100 randomly selected ones chances are low that you'll find a masterpiece. One good strategy to increase the odds is to browse the charts of users which have a similar taste as you. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 02:27
It has happened (once at least) that I didn't enter a full list before, because I didn't want to give points to mediocre albums, but in most cases, I'm dealing with lists of 40 or 50 albums retained for consideration. For those aware of Gnosis2000's rating scales, I don't envisage to put in top lists anything below a Gnosis11 (out of a scale of 15), though a G10 rating is still a four  album (12, 11 and 10 are 4), but I'm very conservative of 5 on PA and >G12 on Gnosis (I've never used G15)Here is what it gave for the last decade or so. 2022: 23 Gnosis11+ (G12 max) 2021: 20 Gnosis11+ (G12 max) 2020: 16 Gnosis11+ (G12 max) 19: 21 Gnosis11+ (G12 max) 18: 30 Gnosis11+ (G13 max) Vak is the G13 17: 19 Gnosis11+ (G12 max) 16: 17 Gnosis11+ (G12 max) 15: 29 Gnosis11+ (G13 max) Kamasi & Maalouf are G13 14: 12 Gnosis11+ (G12 max) 13: 8 Gnosis11+ (G13 max) Setna & Maalouf are G13 12: 12 Gnosis11+ (G12 max) Gnosis rating scale: 15: One of the best ever, perfect. We suggest to raters that,
at most, the top 1% of all albums receive a 15. While any rating from 12
through 15 can accurately be described with the superlatives "masterpiece"
or "classic," only the 15s should appeal to the rater in as profound a
manner as possible.
14: A near perfect classic. In many ways, the difference between 15s and 14s are barely existent; 14s are fantastic albums that either have a very minor flaw or just dont take it to the next level. We suggest to raters that, at most, the top 5% of all albums receive either a 14 or 15. 13: A classic, but not one of the very best. 13s are exalted grades. They are used for albums that the raters consider a classic or a masterpiece, yet did not make the very peak of the hill. A 13 is still an extremely highly recommended item, one that has few flaws. This rating can also be considered an "in-between" grade between favorites and borderline classics. 12: A borderline classic. A 12 is an album that one might instantly apply the word "classic" to, but on deeper reflection, one might not be so sure. There may be slight flaws that would have one hesitate on an intensely specific and critical level, yet a 12 is still an album that would have one mesmerized. 11: Excellent. While not a classic, an album that is very enjoyable and an important part of ones collection. We recommend that raters not give grades higher than 11 on the very first listen. 10: Very good. An album that, while not great, is definitely worth keeping and is very enjoyable. 9: Pretty good. While an album better than most, one may or may not keep an album with a rating of 9. 8: Slightly above average. An album with noticeable flaws, although few permeate the album entirely. Perhaps half the album is superb but the other half is so-so. Or there's a sentimental connection and little else. 7: Completely mediocre. Neither good nor bad. In the greater scheme of things, an album rated as a 7 has been buried under a pile of much superior titles, and while one is not ready to pan it, the rating implies, that, ercan you put something else on? 6: Slightly below average. Just a tad worse than mediocre. Perhaps some parts are outright annoying or distasteful. 5: Below average. Maybe not outright "bad", but definitely a poor effort. 4: Pretty bad. A grade of 4 indicates a strong recommendation to avoid. 3: Bad. An album that contains a handful of decent moments in an otherwise atrocious outing. 2: Very bad, but there are worse. Although an incredibly poor effort, not one of the very worst. However, thats not to say that there are any redeeming values.
1: The worst thing ever. Intolerable. Godawful. A frisbee. A perfect
example of something that one loves to hate. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 06:32
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^ similar to what I ended up using at AP. I word it differently though these days and try to avoid conflating the highest ratings with concepts like “classic” and “masterpiece”. At AP we now have tiers - G through A (Awesome) and then the extra S tier (Stellar). I’d say that for these lists usually only A and S are appropriate, but the occasional B release could also fit, for example if it is a really interesting debut album by a young band. Ultimately I’d say that anything is ALLOWED 😊 ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 08:36
I would have included Nospun- "Opus" in my top 20 if it had been included in Progachives. Nospun plans to release the CD "Opus" any day now...with vinyl to follow. The download of Opus has been available for half a year. I'd suggest Nospun to be included in PA, but alas the moderators won't let me suggest new bands.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 09:54
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I can remember when PA only had a submission list of a Top Ten back when at least 40 collabs were taking part. I was one of those that was not happy it was extended to a Twenty simply because I don't believe I have the capacity to identify 20 great albums (or even can they even be guaranteed?!) . However having intended to stick to 10 I couldn't resist going to a 20 because I felt some bands were not getting any attention and that seemed unfair. So nowadays I am relaxed and happy enough to include albums that are not masterpieces or even 'great'. I'm a long time fan of Eloy so will include them unless there are that many stellar albums about. It's feels good to include them and give them a small amount of recognition for their long service record to prog. At the risk of repeating myself I do believe that all you need to do with this is represent yourself honestly and that is all I can do. (I'm also just a bit too lazy to spend countless hours on a ton of releases!)
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 11:03
I thought I had, but maybe I had not explained this particular issue before. Many of your privileges were removed years ago (at a time when I was taking a break from the site, incidentally). I was able to restore some of those (you might remember that I was having technical issues, spent a long time on it) and I tried to restore you being able to post topics in more forums, but it was not sticking. I will try again, but it's not that we are not allowing you, it's now a technical issue (you might try PMing M&x). If worst comes to worst, I can post the suggestion topic in lieu of you (of course making it clear that you prepared it) but I would hope that it includes a bio, links to hear music etc. On another note, I have never liked the descriptions for the stars at this site, which are 5 stars Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music, 4 stars an Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection, 3 stars being Good, but non-essential, 2 stars being Collectors/fans only and one star being Poor. Only for completionists (or completists as I would term it). I understand that it's to highlight favouring Prog music in part, but not only would I feel uncomfortable rating an album lower because I don't feel it's that Prog despite being excellent at what it does, but also different people have variances in perspectives when it comes to the boundaries of Prog and progressive music (and what can go under the rock umbrella). For rock, I kind of think of it as genre-bending non-canonical rock and rock without limits. Partially I don't care for it because I would just prefer the phrasing to indicate more subjectivity. It depends on the collector, it depends on the collection, what is essential to one and a masterpiece to another might not be to another etc. For me, it would be something like: 5 stars: Yowza!!! 4 stars: Hurray! 3 stars: Good stuff. 2 stars: Meh. 1 star: Yuck! By the way, any albums that people would recommend to me (especially if knowing a little of my tastes, and happy for it to be of any of the categories at PA). I am craving a bit of post-metal today, or anything edgy, some loungey extreme metal might be nice. I will be looking at peoples lists and trying this and that.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 11:07
All we need is a biography, I'm sure the evaluation will go smoothly in their case.
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Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 11:33
The moderators won't let me submit a biography. The moderators won't let me start a thread. I would have to hijack someone else's submission thread to submit a Nospun biography. If I highjacked a submission thread that would be considered inconsiderate.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 11:56
| Okay, whatever. I spent so long trying to fix those issues on more than one occasion (managed to fix some), explained again above, and frankly I am less inclined to try again now. |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 14:19
I don't blame you, Logan. You did your best. You can only do so much. Logan interceded for me. Because of Logan, I can vote on polls again. Before Logan...no polls for this girl. Thank you so much, Logan! You're a good guy!
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 15:25
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Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 16:18
I'm on PA's naughty list. However, Santa came early...prematurely, my hubby gave me an early Christmas present that I have been desiring for 12 years. I'm so excited/happy. I don't care if I'm on PA's naughty list. I like poking fun at the mods because the reason I was punished was for misinformation. I claimed that "natural immunity" was superior to RNA gene therapy. I've been a biologist for 25 years and an RN for 20. My studies and experience biased my opinion. Two years later, history and facts prove me correct...and the Mods wrong. Yet, punishment lingers...As Kurt Vonnegut said, " And so it goes..." |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 16:45
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^I'm on PA'S naughty list also. Many of my posts have been deleted, when I did nothing wrong. Enjoy your present. |
Posted By: Tales from the sky
Date Posted: December 07 2023 at 20:39
| Hello friends our group is waiting to be on the site it is only missing a yes on the Suggest New Bands and Artists forum in the name of: Tales from the sky and we can have our chance to make ourselves known on your site you You can listen to our album Tales from the sky - In the world of Krimus available on Youtube, Spotify, Deezer etc and on bandcamp. Enjoy listening and thank you in advance to whoever will help us to be on the site! https://talesfromthesky.bandcamp.com/album/in-the-world-of-krimus |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 08 2023 at 00:15
Although no one seems to remember but me it was actually my suggestion for the ratings that were adopted at the time (probably around 2005). Before then it was just blank. What you are suggesting is not really that different. I think at the time we were trying to give pause to those that wanted to give 5 stars to everything. 4 star ratings are always a strong recommendation for me and 5 stars should be a rarity not the norm. IMO
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 08 2023 at 10:08
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^ It made sense to do something like that, Richard. The thing is, of course, while lost of people complain that people are too generous with 5 and 4 stars, alot of people only like to rate that which they really like. And I would be way, way more likely to review and album that is five stars for me (essential to my collection/ listening) than one that is just good for me. -------------------------------------- ^^^ Cindy was taken off the naughty list quite some time ago. Let's not get into it here, or again, but that COVID talk was considered potentially harmful. I just got over COVID and we should still be cautious. One of the mods here was a medical Doctor well versed in this and another an RN. As for me, I'm more of a general layabout which makes me an expert on all things (j/k). As for Will's issue with having posts deleted, I don't know about that, but sometimes when things got heated, then many posts would be hidden regardless of whether one was in the wrong or not. That said, of course interpretations of intent can happen. Like some recent posts of mine that got complaints, I thought I did nothing wrong, was intended as friendly humour/ banter, but it was taken in a way that I did not intend. It happens. I was told by on of the most articulate writers at the forum that he could barely understand a word I say... Cindy's was a technical issue to reinstate privileges, which is why I could not update the setting (I was not the one to take action before as I was on hiatus). It seems to have taken now, maybe due to a forum update. So please try it out. ------------------------- I got so much listening to do; it's like this every year. |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: December 08 2023 at 12:23
Thank you Logan. It works. I can actually start a thread. I'm not a doctor. But, I worked as a biologist in an epidemology lab for seven years. I didn't know that PA sported doctor and RN moderators. That said, this isn't the place/time/thread to belabor such issues. Logan solved my issue. Back to the MUSIC |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: December 08 2023 at 12:51
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"That said, this isn't the place/time/thread to belabor such issues. " - yet still here you are doing just that. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 11 2023 at 07:35
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Any new participants? Make yourself heard (and counted!). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 20 2023 at 06:25
And that will be on my list too. I just added it to Prog Archives: https://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=12603" rel="nofollow - All Hands_Make Light Note: Added without the "_" because it was not taking. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 20 2023 at 06:30
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^ Linked and available for voting ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: December 20 2023 at 07:21
It's making my list as well. In the 2.5 weeks since my initial list, I have a few other additions to make. Jack O the Clock's new album will be in my top 5. I have suggested a couple of bands for PA that have albums that would make my list. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 20 2023 at 10:08
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So many awesome albums still to discover ... today I was really impressed by the Rubber Tea album. A really good mix of weirdness, depth and fun. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: December 22 2023 at 15:25
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Fun to read what everyone's been excited about this year, and to participate. Nice to "see" so many of you from our Interactive Polls, too. Thanks to everyone at PA for letting the regular folk chime in, and for all of the reviewers for their work all year long. ------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 22 2023 at 18:25
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Here is my list, but it's missing some of my favourites (the site, me, or both missed them). I did not see: Reverend Kristin Michael Hayter (aka Lingua Ignota) - SAVED! Yo La Tengo - This Stupid World World's End Girlfriend - Resistance & the Blessing Witch - Zango Beach House - Become (an EP). I might have to add those to your site, not sure if EPs are applicable, but those would all rank high for me. Going though the list, i noticed several albums that were not listed in PA, and I added two of those: Here is my 40 I got, definitely very subject to change and some need re-listenings: 1. Swans - The Beggar {ap:63656} 2. [Non-PA] Lingua Ignota - THE END : LIVE AT ISLINGTON ASSEMBLY HALL {ap:66662} 3. [Non-PA] PJ Harvey - I Inside the Old Year Dying {ap:64883} 4. [Non-PA] Depeche Mode - Memento Mori {ap:54558} 5. PoiL - Poil Ueda {ap:55644} 6. Squid - O Monolith {ap:55683} 7. Kosmischer Läufer - Volume 5 {ap:55138} 8. [Non-PA] Sufjan Stevens - Javelin {ap:66095} 9. Trees Speak - Mind Maze {ap:55034} 10. ALL HANDS_MAKE LIGHT - "Darling the Dawn" {ap:66339} 11. Susanne Sundfør - blómi {ap:54691} 12. [Non-PA] Vanishing Twin - Afternoon X {ap:66547} 13. [Non-PA] Die Wilde Jagd - Ophio {ap:67353} 14. Oiapok - OisoLün {ap:54573} 15. Univers Zéro - Lueur {ap:66471} 16. Tim Hecker - No Highs {ap:55665} 17. Goat - Medicine {ap:66299} 18. PoiL - Poil Ueda: Yosh*tsune {ap:65795} 19. The Holy Family - Go Zero {ap:65140} 20. Teeth Of The Sea - Hive {ap:65940} 21. Bob Drake - The Room in the Tower {ap:67570} 22. King Gizzard & The Lizard Wizard - PetroDragonic Apocalypse {ap:63750} 23. Die Anarchistische Abendunterhaltung (DAAU) - Musik Für Animierten Tonspurfilm {ap:66940} 24. Electric Orange - gap {ap:65210} 25. Explosions in the Sky - End {ap:65873} 26. [Non-PA] Held By Trees - Solace ~ Live At Real World {ap:62892} 27. Agusa - Prima Materia {ap:64672} 28. [Non-PA] Cosmic Ground - Entropy {ap:65646} 29. [Non-PA] Matt Berry - Simplicity {ap:67454} 30. Chromb! - Cinq {ap:65683} 31. SWRM - Salamander {ap:64574} 32. Thee Oh Sees - Intercepted Message {ap:65750} 33. Jack O' The Clock - The Warm, Dark Circus {ap:66311} 34. [Non-PA] Monika Roscher Bigband - Witchy Activities And The Maple Death {ap:64093} 35. Homunculus Res - Ecco l'impero Dei Doppi Sensi {ap:64076} 36. Amoeba Split - Quiet Euphoria {ap:54888} 37. Zopp - Dominion {ap:54131} 38. La Theorie Des Cordes - 4u-9525 {ap:63207} 39. Uboa - Empathy Shield {ap:67524} 40. Kilter - The Suspended Woman {ap:67558} And I noteced a couple of album missing from PA so it's useful to go through those. I added Cosmic Ground - Entropy {ap:65646} and Held By Trees - Solace ~ Live At Real World to the bands' discography here. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 23 2023 at 00:52
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Interesting! Feel free to simply add missing albums to AP - if they are also on PA, after adding the album you can use the add link button to link them to their page at PA, making them available as PA albums on the poll. (funny how AP is PA reversed )BTW: The points calculation is currently not optimal, I'll make some adjustments today to fix that. So for your list for example the Poil Ueda release will currently only yield 16 points for the PA list, because there are three Non-PA releases above it. But the points should (and will) be calculated without these "gaps" for each list individually.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 23 2023 at 10:38
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This is hardly my final PA and non-PA but all AP list or placement. 1. Swans - The Beggar {ap:63656} 2. [Non-PA] Lingua Ignota - THE END : LIVE AT ISLINGTON ASSEMBLY HALL {ap:66662} 3. [Non-PA] PJ Harvey - I Inside the Old Year Dying {ap:64883} 4. [Non-PA] Depeche Mode - Memento Mori {ap:54558} 5. PoiL - Poil Ueda {ap:55644} 6. [Non-PA] Sufjan Stevens - Javelin {ap:66095} 7. Squid - O Monolith {ap:55683} 8. [Non-PA] Reverend Kristin Michael Hayter - SAVED! {ap:67836} 9. Kosmischer Läufer - Volume 5 {ap:55138} 10. Trees Speak - Mind Maze {ap:55034} 11. ALL HANDS_MAKE LIGHT - "Darling the Dawn" {ap:66339} 12. Susanne Sundfør - blómi {ap:54691} 13. [Non-PA] Vanishing Twin - Afternoon X {ap:66547} 14. [Non-PA] Die Wilde Jagd - Ophio {ap:67353} 15. Oiapok - OisoLün {ap:54573} 16. [Non-PA] Yo La Tengo - This Stupid World {ap:63054} 17. Univers Zéro - Lueur {ap:66471} 18. Tim Hecker - No Highs {ap:55665} 19. Goat - Medicine {ap:66299} 20. PoiL - Poil Ueda: Yosh*tsune {ap:65795} 21. The Holy Family - Go Zero {ap:65140} 22. Teeth Of The Sea - Hive {ap:65940} 23. Bob Drake - The Room in the Tower {ap:67570} 24. King Gizzard & The Lizard Wizard - PetroDragonic Apocalypse {ap:63750} 25. Die Anarchistische Abendunterhaltung (DAAU) - Musik Für Animierten Tonspurfilm {ap:66940} 26. Electric Orange - gap {ap:65210} 27. Explosions in the Sky - End {ap:65873} 28. [Non-PA] World's End Girlfriend - Resistance & The Blessing {ap:66252} 29. [Non-PA] Held By Trees - Solace ~ Live At Real World {ap:62892} 30. Agusa - Prima Materia {ap:64672} 31. [Non-PA] Cosmic Ground - Entropy {ap:65646} 32. [Non-PA] Matt Berry - Simplicity {ap:67454} 33. Chromb! - Cinq {ap:65683} 34. SWRM - Salamander {ap:64574} 35. Thee Oh Sees - Intercepted Message {ap:65750} 36. Jack O' The Clock - The Warm, Dark Circus {ap:66311} 37. [Non-PA] Monika Roscher Bigband - Witchy Activities And The Maple Death {ap:64093} 38. Homunculus Res - Ecco l'impero Dei Doppi Sensi {ap:64076} 39. Amoeba Split - Quiet Euphoria {ap:54888} 40. Zopp - Dominion {ap:54131} 41. La Theorie Des Cordes - 4u-9525 {ap:63207} 42. Uboa - Empathy Shield {ap:67524} 43. Kilter - The Suspended Woman {ap:67558} Honorable note to the Beach House EP Become. Love Beach House, and was happy to add that to AP with various of the releases, more to come (surprised that was not on anyone's radar enough to add it before). Note: It may be difficult to seperate, but It would be beneficial if one had the option just to list in PA releases as that is not that onerous on people to go through the listings there for those applicable to the Prog AotY exercise. That said and as said I found going though it very useful because I saw releases that for acts in PA that were not added to the PA charts. As said, I added two of those albums to PA. PA is all too have to manually add everything, by the way. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 23 2023 at 14:51
| ^ Yes, there will be a "PA only" mode again for those who prefer that, along with some other improvements in usability. I'll also split the non-pa chart into prog and non-prog. I noticed some non-prog releases in your list, and I really like that - most of us listen to non-prog music as well, and even those who care mostly about prog are perhaps interested in what non-prog releases their fellow prog afficionados find most enjoyable. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 23 2023 at 21:39
| Unless I'm mistaken I seem to have lost my selection when I click on the link to AP so am unable to change it unless I start from scratch again. I would certainly add eMolecule as a non PA release to my list and also the TEMIC release (Haken spin off band) |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 24 2023 at 01:29
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^ currently the selection is stored in the browser, so if you use the same browser it should still be available. Otherwise, if you can wait another day, I will enable you to import your old selection.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 24 2023 at 17:24
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Update: Today I fixed the points calculation and added description texts to all the charts. With the new calculation method there is no "penalty" for submitting non-pa releases in-between pa-releases, the resulting all-users chart will calculate the points (20 for the #1 release, 19 from the #2 and so forth) from the filtered user lists. TL;DR: Feel free to submit as many releases as you like - PA, AP, Prog, Non-Prog ... the PA chart, and also all the other charts, will use the maximum points possible from each user list. EDIT: @richardh: Sorry, had to finish this - will implement the import feature tomorrow.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 25 2023 at 11:28
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And here it is: You are now able to import your old selection - just copy your list code in the forum and paste it into the text box in the tool which says "Lost your selection? ...". |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 25 2023 at 11:52
| And another feature: The list of releases to choose from is limited to PA releases by default again. Just click "show all releases" to see all available releases. Makes it easier for everyone who primarily cares about PA releases, and it is still the main aspect of the poll. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: December 25 2023 at 12:32
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There are several albums I'd like to check out on your list, but first things first
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 25 2023 at 17:10
It's just Kristin Hayter singing and on piano; simple and transcendent. It's supposed to be The End of her Lingua Ignota persona. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 14:23
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^ Ok, I take it you just copied your previous post and moved things around? That works, and all these releases will be counted, but none of the new (non-pa) ones you added "manually". In order for them to be counted, you need to go to https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2023" rel="nofollow - https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2023 again and select them properly. BTW: Of course I do not need to fill the list until you reach 20 ... even if you only submit one release it will still receive 20 points. So by all means limit the list to the releases you find awesome!
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Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 15:02
And thank you for that!
------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 15:14
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I added your non-pa choices to the AP database, so they are available to select now. Regarding your question: You can add any non-pa release you like, they will be listed separately and won't interfere with the pa chart. If you like you can create an account at AP and tag them, if you want to influence the prog status (e.g. non-prog, prog-adjacent or prog). In any case, they will end up in one of the ap charts, which are currently shown as separate tabs.
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 15:17
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Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 15:21
Thank you again!
And I notice I can integrate them into list of PA acts, so will mix it all in, after some thought. Thanks for your patience, not used to how the site works yet.------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 15:50
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^ You're welcome! Allowing to select non-pa releases makes this more complex and exposes you (the PA forum members) to more AP concepts, which is why I made the PA-only list the default again - to stress that you do not need to bother if you only care about the PA chart. So consider it an optional bonus thing to include non-pa releases, but I'll gladly look through all submissions. I find it really interesting to see which releases everyone enjoyed most this year, regardless of whether they're prog or not.
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Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 16:01
 ------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 16:13
| You're still not using the tool. Have you selected and sorted all the releases on the AP page? Then below the list you will find a textbox with the code you'll need to copy and paste into a post in this thread. |
Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 16:17
------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 16:41
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Thank you, I will attempt to do this with the more detailed instructions. Many, if not all, of mine are not in PA, even some that are decidedly Prog artists, my focus is mostly on underserved artists. I like to get them to more ears. ------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 16:46
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^ Absolutely. The genre teams are doing a great job, but there simply are a LOT of artists out there. That's mostly because it is much easier to produce and publish music than it was twenty years ago. Unfortunately the sheer volume of releases makes it also hard to keep track of the really exceptional releases, which is why I am so interested in these user picks
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Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 17:04
And, I just realized I can't delete posts in here, if someone has posted after me. So if any Moderator wants to take out my earlier posts to clean up the thread, please feel free to do so. ------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 26 2023 at 17:07
| Thank you for not giving up! I think I should make the code-copying part easier and clearer. |