https://www.vulture.com/article/epic-games-bandcamp-sale-layoffs.html?fbclid=IwAR1Fo8Pzf--2rPO6Rx_6mCS2MrvWRbWqgGTljATsw6Vj1gGhrTvMylUSIQM" rel="nofollow - https://www.vulture.com/article/epic-games-bandcamp-sale-layoffs.html?fbclid=IwAR1Fo8Pzf--2rPO6Rx_6mCS2MrvWRbWqgGTljATsw6Vj1gGhrTvMylUSIQM

One more reason to have phyz meed.

Hi,

Exactly ... specially as my bank (for example) locks the Credit Card as an untrusted website. 

I'm not a great fan of things like Bandcamp, and I seriously doubt that they are in it "for the artists" ... and are collecting money for advertising on the site, and their commission on the music. In general, I sincerely doubt that any band ... ANY BAND ... out there, can make a living off this site, or any other site ... PERIOD. It's the same thing with Apple, though they have given in to the big names, but everyone else? The numbers are false and misleading, and I doubt, for example, that Tangerine Dream is getting a check for $10 dollars monthly for 16 listens and a few downloads!

Again, the music business needs to die and this needs to get in the hands of the artists, which seems to be difficult ... but no one here has learned any lessons from The Grateful Dead, Robert Fripp (that now owns almost all of KC's material), Porcupine Tree, Marillion, Dream Theater ... folks that let go the "conventional" bullmerde in order to do it their own way ... 

It's scary seeing so many folks post here and pray on Bandcamp or something else ... I doubt they have a chance to get anywhere with it ... and if they can not get their due, it means they have to be part time musicians, and work 8 hours a day at their job ... hardly a good concept for a band to have a chance at "making it" in the market ... though some have done it (Djam Karet is one but they distributed their own for a long time! But they don't make enough and most of the members work elsewhere!) ...

I'm sad ... I really wanted to see a very independent way for most music ... look how FM Radio in the old days brought all of our stuff to the top ... until the great corporate rape in America in the early 80's ... and we still don't "get it!"

What would help, would be if sites like PA and other major "progressive music websites" could get the licensing for posting and selling these things ... but it would mean that PA has to hire one or two folks to work it ... not sure this can be done with volunteers, since there is money moving. At the very least, you get a website that has a major interest in the music and is helping promote it ... which is what so many of these new bands need, and will never get. 

I don't have an answer ... the whole thing is just scary, but I predict Bandcamp losing their flavor and customers real quick. You can only rob some folks for so long before you get found out, and when yo had employees, at least some of the funds made sense ... but when you don't ... IT DOESN'T.

I smell a lot of rats and NJ stinx's (as that sports guy says!).

Greg Spawton (Big Big Train) had the idea for a band in the early 90's and via using mainly session musicians put out several albums. It didn't become an actual band though until aroung 2013 and they only had their first UK chart album (The full charts) about 4 years ago! He gave up his day job about 20 years after he had the initial idea. Crazy situation but it is what it is.

Easy Money wrote: One problem with bandcamp is you have to go through paypal to buy most music on there instead of just using your credit card.

I pay with my Visa every time. And actually bought a song now just to check.

-anyway I hope this will open up for another, better platform for the artists (even if Bandcamp hasn't been the worst idea. At least not until recently)

Physical media purchases outside the US require a PayPal intermediary for currency exchange and post. Digital can be purchased direct through credit.

Anyway, this is not great news, but it is pretty much the name of the game. Create a startup, run it for awhile, then sell it to some inefficient bloated corp that runs it into the ground. 

Certainly, when it's available. Sadly, media overhead is a problem for a lot of outstanding, small scale artists.

Totally. As an indie musician living on the verge of poverty in a 3rd world post-USSR country, I can't afford having physical copies of my albums printed out.

What is the indicator?  Ratios of 3-month and 2-year Treasury yields to the 10-year yield offer an accurate recession warning signal, with recessions starting roughly 14 months after readings >1.0. This is commonly referred to as an inverted yield curve.  Note that a valid recession signal requires >1.0 readings from both indicators simultaneously. These ratios are the current gold standard of recession predictors, with a perfect, ten-for-ten prediction rate since 1950.

Bandcamp is a haven for some incredible independent music and I will be incredibly disappointed if it disappears. 

While I agree in principal with a lot of what you say here you're overstating your case. Bandcamp are generally considered the best of the available options in terms of artist payment compared to the streaming sites that seem to make up the bulk of the music 'industry' these days. They are certainly a business and charge a fee for their services. They are not 'robbing' anyone. They pay the highest percentage back to the artists and have been a lifeline for small artists.

Would I like to see artists fully control their art end to end and thus reap all the benefits, yes certainly. But they are still unlikely to make a full time living at it and its a lot of work and may not be suited to an individuals particular skill sets. There is some benefit to scale and having a platform you can search and discover on.

Most of the people I talk to as artists and small time record labels reckon they are good for the industry.

This smacks of big corporate getting their hands on the bandcamp catalog of artists and dumping all the 'low value' activities.

I'll watch with interest but I'm not hopeful.

Hi,

The sad part of this, is, that this could easily be remedied in a country that has folks that can afford it, but it doesn't happen. My name is not Gomelsky to pick up some exciting new talent that no one ever heard and plunk them into records, and then (later) CD's. 

What does this say? As the example, of how many musicians will end up frozen out ... but then bandcamp is not sending you a check every month for $5 dollars either, or you wouldn't say anything. That pretty much says that bandcamp is not helping folks like it should ... 

Printing a new work, is no longer the way to do it ... it's all digital now and I'm already looking to get all my LP's digitized (if they aren't so already) and then dump them, as they are way too heavy for this old man. CD's will be next ... once all in a digital folder, goodbye to the CD.

As I mentioned before, there needs to be a "musicians site" that helps ... not some corporate BS that is merely ripping off the folks out there. Anb by helping, I mean a site that shows their finances on record for everyone ... hate it that bandcamp, apple and others are secretive ... which is (to me) that they are ripping someone off badly ... and it's best to excuse it as privacy! 50 years later, it's still the same story ... there has never been any "accounting" for the moneys taken in ... and the IRS never chased it, and continues to allow these folks to get away from it all ... supposedly because some musicians (usually the rich ones) keep saying that it will hurt the business ... their business, screw anyone else's!

Today I'm mostly listening via Spotify, occasionally Bandcamp, sometimes my own collection (some artists still don't support any streaming service). As long as artists willingly agree to put their music there, I will keep using these services as a matter of convenience. I am keeping a chart of my favorite albums on my website, so that in the event that these services shut down, I know what to buy to switch to offline mode.

I've been using paypal for 18 years and find it ultra-easy (and haven't noticed additional costs) and very safe.

Once your credit is registered in their system (it's easy to update too), you don't have to pull it out of your wallet 

I have to use my bank satellite module to OK payments, but it's quite quick

Absolutely awful turn of events, especially after Epic bought the company and fired a huge portion of their staff just earlier this year

If you want to directly support us musicians through Bandcamp the best option is to buy your music on the first Friday of the month, that's when 93% of the money goes to the artist/label.

Capitalism only supports art when they can exploit it for massive profit otherwise it will strangle it to death at its' earliest opportunity. 

http://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/bandcamp-bargaining-union-layoffs-songtradr-18432047.php" rel="nofollow - https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/bandcamp-bargaining-union-layoffs-songtradr-18432047.php

More confirmation that the new owner doesn't give one single damn about BC. 

Hi,

In my book, this is exactly what happened to FM radio after the 70's when the corporate rape took place and all the "independent" FM stations were bought out by corporations. And 24 hours later, you had the "classic" stations that are still there ... or worse ... ask LA about KMET ... over night ... new wave ... and it was the top rated FM station in LA! Tells you the viciousness of "business", sometimes.

Again, as I sad before, this would not happen if there was a group of musicians that TOGETHER took care of all this ... but the divisions and the competition they are used to, won't allow many folks to do this ... and they go to BC and Spotify and other sites and "hope" and then "pray" for a check for one lunch! Wow ... such talent for a lunch ... 

We refuse to learn and help new bands learn ... they won't look at The Grateful Dead, Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater, Marillion, King Crimson (in the past 20 years) and others that control their music, and it is the only way to do this ... but I wonder how much some of these bands want to share space ... PT has done it, but it is all about SW's projects and that's about it ... and while the other PT is nice, it is very over-rated in my book.

The fact is that SW, for example, has already been bought out for "distributing" so he doesn't have to bother with it, or waste money on shipping and all the stuff that goes with it. 

Not surprised ... and until the day that all of the progressive alltalk and noshow help these bands come together and create a venture that will help get rid of bandcamp or the like ... but we're too lazy for that ... and the next entrepreneur will likely end up getting his own set of colored balls after ripping off some artists as much as possible.

Saddest thing ... in this day and age ... another company going for the greed and we don't give a hoot!

https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/is-bandcamp-as-we-know-it-over/" rel="nofollow - https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/is-bandcamp-as-we-know-it-over/

https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/" rel="nofollow - https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/

Looks like Bandcamp is about to ensh*ttificated properly. 

Artists should focus on selling their music themselves, avoiding the middle man almost completely.

You are however not acknowledging artists like me for example, who can't fuсking afford to poop out CDs and vinyl whenever they feel like it. And even if I had to print out 100 poorly duplicated or 300-500 hq pressed physical copies (minumum amount in the case of the majority of CD/vinyl manufacturing services), wait a year and a half or these days perhaps even like more than two, three years (that's minimum waiting time in the case of ALL such services), that would never fuсking sell enough copies for me not to actually sink/lose money!!!

FOR A POOR POOR POOR POOR UNDERGROUND ARTIST, RELEASING MUSIC IN PHYSICAL FORMAT IS EXPENSIVE!!! And considering the lightspeed inflation, IT'S BASICALLY FINANCIAL SUICIDE!

Anyway: spotify, Tidal, YT Music sucks. Plain and simple. We've already talked about the 0.000000001% revenue for the artist. But there are other problems. The audio is in GARBAGE quality (even for premium subbed consumers) and on top of that the services RUIN the mastering, by adjusting the loudness level to their bogus systems (YEAH, even for premium subbed consumers). And the NAIL to the coffin is of course that it is STREAMING, no DOWNLOADS!!!

So for example, if some generous fan wants to support me and keep my music forever.... well, then the only possibility is to send me a message containing the proof that they made the payment via I dunno, paypalme or patreon (in that case I'd have to create a patreon, get verified yada yada) or something, and ask for a private manually-sent download link. Sounds like a lot of hassle? Well, that lack of convenience just discourages the listener from buying the album. :(

But how is the listener gonna be informed the new album was released? Back in the Bandcamp era, Bandcamp itself would inform followers. But now, I'd have to create a mailing list on some most likely paid service! :( And somehow, spread the word and get folks to join it, which is very hard in this day and age.

And even with all that being done, no new listeners will ever find me, because the convenient, user friendly platform that is Bandcamp will not exist anymore!!! So, I'd have to make it big on YT or Twitter/X or something first. Except, it's an unachievable task for an underground micro-niche prog rock musician.

So, TLDR: small and poor prog artists are fuсked.

^^ Are we allowed to write f**k now? Not that I personally ever feel the f**king need to write f**k, but I think it should be f**king allowed. 

Edit: Not me. Only Hrychu is allowed it seems.

Edit: Not me. Only Hrychu is allowed it seems.

Not really. I just figured a workaround.

(I know a CDr isn't as good as a pressed CD, but it's pretty much the only affordable option for a hobbyist or a poor musician. When you start looking at trying to get a pressed CD, the costs just don't reap the benefits, and then you have boxes and boxes of them stored in your closets - not me personally, but from what I've heard from people that have chosen that path)

progaardvark wrote: I know this is unhelpful for the time being. If the past is any indicator, Bandcamp will eventually collapse and it will open up an economical niche that something else will eventually fill. This has happened numerous times already during my existence with my hobby music project: mp3.com, JavaMusic, Ampcast, SoundClick (which is still around), using CDr services of Cafepress (they don't do this anymore), CDr services of Amazon (they don't do this anymore), and CDr services of Kunaki (this still exists). So, when Bandcamp disappears, I'll just find something else. Whatever replaces Bandcamp will also not exist forever. It will follow the same path: nice idea leads to cool website, independent artists are the greatest, big company comes along and offers several million dollars, take the money and run, website collapses, ad infinitum.

That is only true if said company chooses to sell out. There is no reason an indie label cannot sustain itself on a level that maintains all the desirable attributes of what attracted the masses to it in the first place. The problem is too many are willing to cash in and let their baby crash and burn.

If this is true, why are there so many artists on Twitter saying how great Bandcamp is and how worried they are about this news?

You can buy CDs from Bandcamp.

This is a general problem with the internet / content websites in general, not just Bandcamp. Some companies (like YouTube) are able to invest millions to try to combat this, and even they fail. The concern for me would be less, is this possible, and more, what does Bandcamp do when it's found out? Are people ending up paying for music thinking its the artist when it's not?

I have been using Bandcamp a lot, so bad news.

I'm wondering about the economic logic in this. Can anybody explain? What exactly did Epic win from all this? Did they sell Bandcamp for more money than they paid? Did Bandcamp make them a lot of money, and if so, wouldn't it have made sense to keep it? Or did they just miscalculate?

The former owners of Bandcamp, they just wanted to get rich and therefore they sold? Was Bandcamp in trouble already then, and if not, why would they sell? (Of course Epic offering a truck load of money explains this, but why would Epic pay more than what the place was worth to their former owners?)

And then, why is it any good for Songtradr to rip the place apart? OK, they may believe that Bandcamp becomes more profitable with fewer staff, but how would it make sense for them to buy the place then let it go bust? (Of course I could be optimistic hoping that this is not what they are going to do, but I won't hold my breath, and neither apparently do many folks here...)

Can anybody enlighten me on this? (I mean I know there are many other such stories around, but still...)

Hi,

My biggest problem is that we know that many folks are being ripped off and we do nothing about it, and many still go to BC ... or any other site.

Until the day that these folks openly show the hits and the sales, I don't think they should be given any credit, and if my name was IRS, guess where I would start my investigation ... but this is impossible because of the rich folks that OWN the place that do far worse, and sometimes maintain losing side ventures on purpose to make sure the IRS does not collect more taxes. It's thought to be considered "good business", but in the end, it is cheating and taking advantage of the system, and it should have limits so even folks with 40 houses for rent, can not list 30 of them as money losers, unless they have no tenants, which sometimes is obvious ... you let the yard go and no one wants to rent it!

In my book, BC needs to die, along with others, and the music "business" needs to go back to working for McDonalds and all the insults involved. But, like many folks I know, they are "privileged" and had "massive" benefits from family or otherwise, and they are essential "rich" folks that feel they have a right to the goodies, and let the poor folks eat cake and crumbs!

This "disparity" is the problem in the whole thing as the majority of folks posting on these locations are simply hoping for a chance, but there won't be many chances when they have no idea how many downloads or listens there were ... and they only saw one check for $10 dollars ... here, stop crying said the rich bitch!

As I said before, if Bandcamp is so bad why are so many artists that I listen to on it voluntarily?

I discover new music through digital, if I do like an album, I'll buy it on LP.

I have found several great albums through just LPs though, both are important

Grumpyprogfan wrote: The current generation does not want physical copies. LP and CD purchases are mostly from those near retirement. The future of listening to music seems to be streaming, which pays nothing to artists. Nothing we can do to stop change.

Which is weird, cuz digital downloads are the logical successor to CDs/vinyl; streaming is not. You might be tempted by the selection of songs online at your fingertips, but you can't listen to the music while you're offline. Even if some sites allow offline listening, still, when the music is taken down from the streaming sites, it's gone, you can't listen to it anymore.

Also, the following applies to musicians mostly. With digitally downloaded files that you own, you can put em in your DAW, cut them into pieces, sample them, add EQ, compression, remaster, record your own instruments to it, and so on and so on. Personally, some time ago I changed the loudness and EQ curves of the tracks from Evership II for them to match the mastering on Evership I, so that when I'm listening to the two Evership albums in one go, I won't get distracted by the sudden volume and timbre shift.

I disagree with both points.
 

Hi,

I can not say why ... but in general, likely because it is one of the most visible? But more bands need to learn that putting up a website that also allows for financial transactions is not that hard, or that bad an investment. And is tax deductible as an expense. But being honest about the sales and what not? Another story!

Personally, I don't want BC to fall off the earth, but I want to see some more clarity as to their business practices, because if you find out that 172 copies of your album were sold and you got a check for $10 dollars ... time out .. time for a lawyer. And include all the fees!

The major issue is that you, and I, and any band ... WILL NEVER KNOW how many and how much!

That's a major issue and problem!

Are you sure about that? It's easy enough for Bandcamp to know how many people have downloaded a particular album - I can see sales figures for each CD that I've bought - and each artist presumably has an agreed rate for sales.

Hi,

It better not be ... since that is about 4 Cents per download, when they cost 99 Cents ... I think it was Paul Mc that held out at Apple to get at least 15 Cents per download, and Apple gave in ... which would say that any download place should at the very least be giving out 7 to 8% to the artist. Anything less is highway robbery.

4 Cents a song, is not going to buy you a McDonalds breakfast or lunch!

Hi,

There is a side here, that some folks want their "privacy", but we're talking about a system that has for the last 60 years ripped folks off too much, and it needs to open up it's books and show its honesty, which ... is not going to happen. I see more people that take money in, and pocket a whole bunch that no one knows or notices. And the bigger the money the more there is! And I've seen this a few times, during my career as a data entry for a major accounting office during tax season.

I simply wish that folks like the IRS would go after these download places ... I would be very happy to find out they were honest, but, sincerely? I doubt it! The music business has robbed many folks and careers, and it won't stop now ... when the money shows up, so does the evil!

Illegal download sites are usually shut down sooner or later, but they do go away. 

Bandcamp is not one of those sites, sad you can't make the difference. 

Hi,

How can you be so dense as to assume I would not know the difference? I did not say that BC was corrupt, but I did say that being more open and honest about things would help a lot more, than not. The "hiding" and simply dump people from the payroll so they are spending less and making more money, is the issue ... but then, we allow all of corporate America to do whatever the fudge they want, so why would we, the lemmings, give a damn about a BC dumping folks for ... a questionable reason?

I seriously doubt that a tax return of theirs is not a joke, but the likelihood is that they are a subofasubofasub business and by that time the numbers are very well hidden, and the IRS simply does not have the manpower to go after those huge corporations that hide so much stuff. Look ... AT&T alone would have to have at least 1000 agents to go after them! Apple would require at least 300 agents to go after them, since so much is hidden in different cities and countries! 

Wow, thank you for that insult, you are too kind. 

Bandcamp is now corporate America?!  

Indeed, there are enough musicians saying on Twitter how worried they are about the Bandcamp situation for me to believe that Bandcamp is honest. Actually, I'm seeing one of these musicians tomorrow night so I will ask him if I get the chance.

Hi,

You're the one that made the original assumption that I was stupid without saying it. Own up to your comment as wrong, first, and we can erase the rest. I think you are letting your "feelings" get in the way of the matter by standing up to something that you might not know the corporate/accounting side of as well, as I do having done tax data entry for the past 20+ years.

The only thing that bothers me about these things, is that it is the ones that make the least that get punished the most ... the folks that lose their jobs.

BC, likely, as well as Spotify and others, fairly honest, however their having several sites in other countries is a bit ... on the weird side, if not possibly more difficult side of things, since yo have no idea how good, or true the numbers from Italy (well known for cheating with the "mafia" -- joke!), and many of the Eastern European countries that still rob the public blind, in the name of something or other. Or that big country ... you would trust the numbers that are being shown?

The whole thing is sad, you and I can agree on. How to solve it, is a different issue, but I'm not sure it can when the corporate ladder simply dumps people like flies or mice. Somewhere along the line, this needs to be double-checked ... 

One business said they were losing money. The accounting showed that their folks were stealing it, and creating situations that were ridiculous to "cover" expenses, which were doubled for the sake of the numbers on a return. Why the heck would a business hire more folks when they were losing money? it makes no sense. Thus, the "drastic" decision, brings up a slew of possibilities that are not clear and remain hidden with the dust under the carpet.

There is a big difference between assuming someone does not know something and calling them "dense". 

Spotify and bandcamp operate differently. Look into it to see the difference between the two sites. 

Now 'Band'camp can ROT for all I care.  

Wait! When did this happen? After the Songtradr purchase? And could you explain how exactly the company "kicked off" the bands? I've just checked and Jordsjø is still up there, so is Behold The Arctopus. And my account is still there too.

Zeph wrote: Yeah, I’m not watching a two hour video by a right-wing to understand what this is about. What I gathered from a quick search was that it was about lyrics.

Yeah. That video seemed kinda suspicious to me too, especially with "woke" in the title.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ You should definitely never watch suspicious videos! Imagine the horror when you hear something you don't agree with!

I do the thing that most rational people do when confronted by someone who cursing "wokeness" for ruining [X]. I avoid them and don't let them waste precious minutes of my life in the process. 

Well said!