I spent some time reading through the many reviews of Kansas albums on this site over the past few weeks, particularly the reviews of their works during the 80’s decade (Audio-Visions, Vinyl Confessions, Drastic Measures, Power, and In the Spirit of Things).  While I agree with most of the reviewers that these works do not represent the best the band has to offer, I think that, in the context of how prog music in general fared during the 80’s, they really aren’t as egregious of offerings as some of our various contributors make them out to be.  Frankly, Kansas’ five albums of new material during the 80’s make them one of the more prolific of the earlier prog bands during that decade.  To prove a point, I compiled some pertinent statistics and observations of the bands Kansas is most often compared to in various reviews on this and other prog forums.  Tell me what you think:

Genesis.  The early 80’s brought Duke (1980) and Abacab (1981), widely critiqued as unoriginal and targeted for the mass-market in the same way Audio-Visions and Vinyl Confessions were.  These were followed by only four other studio albums over the succeeding 16 years, all with heavy rotation on MTV and VH1 videos of their pop-tinged singles.  The only studio sessions that even remotely returned to their progressive roots were those resulting in 1997’s Calling All Stations, and even this was devoid of over half of the group that is lauded for such timeless classics as Nursery Cryme and The Lamb Lies Down in Broadway.  They have, of course, managed to cash in on their golden years with no less than 15 boxed-sets, compilation releases, and live recordings since their 70’s heyday.

Yes.  In 1980 they released Drama, modestly well-received but missing much of the heart of the band with Jon Anderson and Rick Wakeman’s departures.  Anderson returned of course, but the resulting 90125 in 1983 left many fans wondering why, and 1987’s Big Generator sounded suspiciously like a collection of 90125 leftovers.  The name “Yes” found its way onto a few more album covers in the 90’s, but these were produced by remnants of the original band, with some support by studio and guest musicians.  Their chief output after 1980 were the 30-plus compilations and live recordings aimed, presumably, at lining their pockets by leveraging the band’s reputation with older fans.

King Crimson.  Probably survived the 80’s best of all the older prog bands, with the trilogy of Discipline, Beat, and Three of a Perfect Pair.  Like Genesis however, they would return to the studio only four more times to release original material after that, and not at all until well into the 90’s with THRAK.  They have managed to release more live and compilation recordings since 1980 than virtually any of the other 70’s prog bands though.

Emerson, Lake, and Palmer.  In my opinion ELP checked out early on the 70’s with the oft-ridiculed Love Beach, and it might be argued they had the most successful approach to surviving the 80’s – they didn’t release anything (unless of course you count the odd and forgettable Emerson, Lake & Powell from 1985).  In 1992 Black Moon offered a glimmer of hope that the band was on the rebound, but they followed it up with the absolutely horrid In The Hot Seat a couple years later.  They survive only in the dozen or so live recordings and more than a dozen compilations and boxed-sets their labels have floated over the nearly three decades since their best days ended.

Gentle Giant.  First, I’ll admit to not knowing a heck of a lot about Gentle Giant, and virtually nothing of their work after Free Hand, but in the spirit of this tirade, I looked up their discography and found that they too pretty much escaped the 80’s unscathed, releasing only Civilian early in the decade, and since I’ve never heard anything from that album, I won’t offer any comment.  By the time The Last Steps was panned in a Rolling Stones review in the mid-90’s, I had written them off, and was never a big enough fan to have any interest in their endless string of live recordings released over the last twenty years.

Jethro Tull.  It’s possible that Tull peaked even by the early 70’s, but I got into the band with Heavy Horses, and IMHO they probably fared the best of the 70’s prod bands during the 80’s, releasing the thoroughly enjoyable A and The Broadsword and the Beast at the onset of the decade, but I listened to a couple demo tracks of Under Wraps in a Musicland store a couple years later and bought REM’s Reckoning instead.  Tull has had several issues of new material since then, but other than the Christmas Album (which I have and like, although it’s no Aqualung), they too have largely released collections and live albums over the past dozen years or so.

Pink Floyd.  Peaked with The Wall to close out the 70’s, and demonstrated their intent to cash in on that with The Final Cut a few years later (it worked too – I bought the album and later the CD as well).  And other than A Momentary Lapse of Reason and Division Bell (sans Waters), they really haven’t done anything as a band since other than regurgitate old material in live and reissued form. 

Traffic.  Wasn’t sure if I should even include them, but I have been listening to quite a bit of their original stuff lately, and although I guess I always considered them more folk than anything else, I see they appear on this site as a prog band.  Sadly, as I recall the band actually disbanded (for the third time or so) before the 80’s even began, although when I saw that they were inducted into the R&R Hall of Fame last year, I learned that Jim Capaldi and Steve Winwood had reunited in the 90’s to produce a couple albums of new material.  What little I’ve heard of those albums doesn’t much resemble any of the earlier incarnations of Traffic though, and they too survive only in the various boxed-sets that seem to come out every year around Chritmas.

Strawbs.  Another band that survived the 80’s by breaking up.  Had a bit of a revival late in the decade under the name Strawbs, but to my knowledge that group largely consisted of Cousins with a couple of members from the very early Strawbs lineups.  Wakeman of course was long gone, and I must confess to never having even heard their 80’s album, though I have to suspect if it was much worth listening too I would have had some inkling.

Uriah Heep.  I actually hated these guys in the 70’s, and most of us in the states at least considered them metal, not prog (although to be fair, my definition of progressive music at that time extended pretty much to Yes, Kansas, and ELP).  While the band continued to put out new material through the 80’s, it was of widely varying style and quality, and the lineups changed like pitcher rotations on a baseball team (much like that of Kansas during the same period).  They did put out the very decent Abominog in 1982 (which interestingly included a song entitled ‘Chasing Shadows’, as did Kansas’ Vinyl Confessions the same year), but their only real candidate for progressive music after about 1978 was the brilliant (but one-shot) Sea of Light in the mid-90’s.  Since then Uriah Heep is pretty much seen on the record shelves only in the form of live albums and reconstituted boxed-sets, much like most of the other 70’s prog gods.

So I’m not sure exactly what my point is here, except to say that I had some time on my hands and felt the need to make some sort of defense for my favorite prog band (Kansas, in case I hadn’t mentioned that already).  Sure, Drastic Measures was a drastic departure, and largely forgettable.  True, the only original recordings in the past ten years have been with the unrecognizable lineup in Freaks of Nature, and the nostalgic but sort-lived reunion for Somewhere to Elsewhere in 2000.  And sure, they’ve done their fair share of cashing in by releasing a dozen or so boxed-sets, live recordings, and re-mastered issues in the past 20 years or so. 

But I guess my point is that this doesn’t make them that much different from any of the other 70’ prog masters of the genre.  The fact that they are still out there touring (including several months of well-attended shows throughout Europe earlier this year), says to me that the band has managed to survive the deadly 80’s curse that felled many prog greats, and despite Steve Walsh’s complete loss of vocal ability, they remain a viable musical entity on the progressive landscape, even if only by offering us nostalgic old farts the opportunity to see their still considerable showmanship and talent in a live setting a few more times.

peace.

Man Overboard wrote: dream_orchestra wrote: If only Kansas had one album comparable to ELP butthey don't. Leftoverture, youngin'.

Not to mention Song For America, their proggiest effort IMO.

Man Overboard wrote: dream_orchestra wrote: If only Kansas had one album comparable to ELP butthey don't. Leftoverture, youngin'.

I recently bought Leftoverture after hearing Wayward Son on the radio, and doing a bit of research around here.  I was slightly dissapointed, but perhaps it'll grow on me.  After all, I do like Supertramp.

Only an American could say Kansas are better than ELP, keep up the insults and i'll report you.

Kansas not even in their worst years did an album as bad as Love Beach or In the Hot Seat, an never released an abomination as the dance disco called Re-Works.

To be honest ELP did excellent albums until the mid 70's, but every album since Works II is way below the level of any good Prog' band.

Iván

Love Beach is the joke of every Prog site (not only this one but each and every one), In the Hot Seat is even worst and Re-Works would be OK for a trance party or something similar.

Kansas is probably the most respected USA Prog' band, they mixed with great capacity hard rock, USA Folk and Symphonic Progressive as no one ever did, they were probably the first Prog' band that based their sound in the combination of violin and vocals rather than in keyboards, and did it very well.

Leftoverture is (At least IMO) in the level of the best Prog' albums of all time, songs as Miracles Out of Nowhere, The Wall, Song or America, etc are great examples of Progressive Rock.

Iván

I'm afraid the point may have been lost here, which wasn't to make the claim that Kansas (or any other American band) was (or is) any better than one from anywhere else (and really, since when has national origin been a determining factor in the worth of a musical group?). 

The observation was simply that there are many great prog bands today, and there were many great prog bands in the 70's.  There are not many bands who have managed to remain viable and productive on both ends of the 80's chasm.  In my opinion Kansas, with seven albums worth of original material during the 70's, another five in the 80's, and three new albums since, is one of those bands.

YUP

dream_orchestra wrote: I don't see anyone from the UK or Europe agreeing....................yet?

I don't think people of any Continent including Europe will agree with this kind of statements.

Iván

Too true. 

Unfortunate, I actually did spend a fair amount of time on this and was looking forward to some intelligent, adult conversation and feedback.

Man Overboard wrote: Imagine a cross between King Crimson and VdGG, I actually like these guys *more* than what Kansas became...

That's all I needed to hear...I'm buying them! 

SlipperFink wrote: The first 5 Kansas records were laudable. They could all play pretty well, and played and wrote WITHIN the limitations of the groups ability to execute. A VERY AMERICAN CONCEPT. Some folks thought.... and obviously some STILL think, this prevented them from being a real 'Prog band'. But let's look at who they were. A bunch of utterly repressed Biblebeating Blue-eyed Gospel afficinados from the MIDDLE OF NOWHERE. That's pretty cool in and of itself. Granted: They didn't have the compositional astusity of GG, but they were better writers than Camel or Greenslade. They didn't have the chops of groups like ELP or Yes.. but they were better players to a man than anybody in Nektar. They didn't have the lyrical impact of VDGG, but they wrote better lyric than Uriah Heep. And they had SPIRIT. They were earnest, passionate, and heartfelt. They were HONEST. And they could(gasp) ROCK.

Good point, but again I partially disagree because I hate to compare bands, specially in the case of Kansas, they were so unique as no other band ever.

Their lyrics are different, more dark, dramatic and pesimist than anybody else, the massive use of violin not as an aid to keyboards but as the main instrument is absolutely exclusive, the strong drumming of Phil Ehartand is amazing (The most uderrated drummer in history), their shameless way they expose their feelings and fears is incredible.

You can't compare them with Uriah Heep, Yes,. Genesis (Well, there's strong Genesis influence) or VDGG, they are something special, not better, not worst, only different

IMO they were in the same level as any other Prog' band, only that they had the most unique approach to Prog, despite the fact they come from the strangest city for Prog' in the world, but that made even richer their music because they added strong folk to their sound.

I simply love Kansas (Except during their Fundamentalist years (AKA The Elephante years).

Iván

ClemofNazareth wrote: Too true.  Unfortunate, I actually did spend a fair amount of time on this and was looking forward to some intelligent, adult conversation and feedback.

I think Kansas deserve a lot of credit, maybe also because of their post - '80's stuff, but I can't get behind your view about some of the other bands in the '80's. In my opinion Genesis and Yes in particular re-invented themselves and at least made some albums which where musically quite satisfying (Genesis - Duke and Abacab, Yes - 90125), though they weren't everybody's cup of tea. The fact that some of them got great commercial success doesn't make them any less.

here here for Kansas

Also one of my favourite bands. Saw them live last year..they still got it !

SlipperFink wrote: yargh wrote: Here's the problem with Kansas:  In the 1970s (their prime, in the minds of those who consider the band to have had one) their sound was lifted from the better UK bands; thus, arguing that their '80s material was good because the bands they copied had moved on doesn't make any sense to me.  The '70s prog movement died in the late 1970s.  There was still progressive music to be made in the '80s, but by and large it was not to be made out of the same materials as the symph-prog bands of the 1970s.    What a load of utter hogwash. Which UK bands did Kansas bite from? Please name them. Gimmie a specfic example. Like say... well this part from "Icarus" sounds a whole lot like this part from "Heart of the Sunrise". Gee.. heck.. gosh... darn... golly... this part from "Song for America" sounds a whole lot like "Fracture". Get real. Total revisionist history. Kansas FAILED with the US proggers on the first 3 records because they decidedly DID NOT sound much of ANYTHING like the UK prog bands of the day. Go back and read my first post on the subject and learn something. Concentrate on the 'rock' and 'riff' thingies. They cut their own little niche with the kids who OUTGREW Journey and Styx when they watered down the compositional soup starting on POKR, and finally "crossed over" to FM radio rock... which was the plan of that evil little troll Don Kirshner from day one, and reason why he SIGNED the band. Hilariously... they actually still wrote a bunch of fairly decent 'prog-pop' stuff.... something the vast majority of their now wishy-washy English prog contemporaries, like GTR and Asia failed miserably at.... Which, without actually saying EXACTLY as much.... is kinda what the original poster was driving at. Anyhoo. There ya have it. Yer totally in the dark. SM.

Kansas failed with US audiences BECAUSE they were just ripping off the UK bands.  The US audiences who were into prog were at least smart enough to know the real thing from a fraud.  Kansas had to become an AOR band to capture middle America (metal-lovin' clods who also boogied to Styx and Journey) and, with Leftoverture, they became that AOR band. 

Symphonic prog was born in the UK.  Kansas copied the elements and added bluesy/folksy touches that stamped them as being from the US.  I need not point out passages that were lifted from Yes to know that Kansas owed their existence to Yes. 

There ya have it, ya big headbangin', AOR lovin' brute! 

There's nothing like a retread, and Kansas sure were a bunch of retreads.    

I never seem to get arguments from this sdie of the Atlantic?

Other than that the first two albums sound almost exactly like Yes, except for the violin? 

This review excerpt puts it fairly well: "Being a hard-core Yes fan at the time, and largely naïve to the existence of other prog rock bands, I was transfixed. The music was so convincing of the Wakeman/Squire/Bruford axis, I initially thought that there was still some unreleased Fragile-era material out there that had somehow escaped me."

That pretty much says it all.

SlipperFink wrote: yargh wrote: Slipperfink -- it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about, since you apparently have zero grasp of musical components or musical history.  You're also probably about 16, like many of the other contributors to this site -- clearly you think and write like one, whatever your biological age may be -- and if you think you can get me to share my own wealth of knowledge on the likes of you, you'll have to be a lot nicer and try a lot harder.  Baseless statements and poorly- worded retorts just ain't gettin' it done.    Right. I was around and PLAYING prog for A LIVING.... when all this silly tom- foolery went down laddie-buck. SM.

Then I would say you have very few excuses for your lack of insight.  Carry on... my wayward son!   

It was an unintended and unfortunate choice of words, that was obviously misconstrued and allowed the thread to degenerate into rather silly chest-thumping that had really nothing to do with music.  My apologies to all for starting the thread to being with.

"Patriotism is a lively sense of collective responsibility. Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on its own dunghill and calling for larger spurs and brighter beaks. I fear that nationalism is one of England's many spurious gifts to the world."
                                                                       -- Richard Aldington

Kansas are my most loved band.. they have many faces to their music from commercial hits like Carry on wayward son and Dust in the wind, to less commercial ventures like Magnum Opus or Closet Chronicles .. those few people comparing Kansas to ELP I believe know little about what they are talking about , many people make a big mistake by thinking because they have heard Kansas on Radio they know the band. Kansas have many sides that only true Kansas fans would know about. Leftoverture  is  brilliant  prog... Song For America is brilliant prog .. Masque has some  great moments so does Point of know return  and their live CD Two For The Show is one of the best LiveCD`s ever made. I  am  Australian and I love Kansas ! the 80`s stuff  from kansas  is  a little  hit  and  miss  .. in the spirit of things is steve walshs  personal  favourite CD from kansas  ever  .. though I  wouldn`t go  that far myself I do believe its a great CD  power kicks  ass   .. morse  helped it along  nicely .. Drastic measures  was interesting first time I played it I hated it but the kansas zap got me after a few listens (Livgren  suffered writters block so aproach with caution as the elefonte brothers wrote most of it)   I hope my input is useful n stuff