Nature and Organisation began as an experimental post-industrial unit, with noisy sound collages and tape loops owing more to the early works of Current 93, whose David Tibet Cashmore met in the mid-80s. This embryonic sound was documented in a handful of compilation tracks and a live performance, Third Terminal Position, independently released on cassette in 1986. In 1990, Cashmore joined Current 93, imbuing it with his unique, lush melodious compositional talent. Four years later, Cashmore released Nature and Organisation's most well-known and defining album, Beauty Reaps the Blood of Solitude, on Durtro records. The LP featured contributions from Tibet, as well as Douglas P. (of Death in June), Rose McDowall (of Strawberry Switchblade) and Steven Stapleton (of Nurse With Wound). An accompanying EP, A Dozen Summers Against the World, came out the same year.

EDIT: And Universal Death Stream gives me post-2000 Klaus Schulze vibes

Here's the A Dozen Winters Against the World EP for the sake of completeness.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/za346o65ovlcz6m/A_Dozen_Winters_Against_the_World.rar/file" rel="nofollow - https://www.mediafire.com/file/za346o65ovlcz6m/A_Dozen_Winters_Against_the_World.rar/file

Thank you. Fingers crossed!

i thought i had chimed in a couple of months ago, but probably forgot to submit  my opinon

sp i relistened to most of this (above) and have a problem considering this prog folk (or neo-folk as RYM classifies it

this is rather difficult to pigeonhole (just as Current 93 xas), but my guess would be avant or experimental

yes, i hear some folkish moments, but definitely not enough to warrant an inclusion in PF.

like Ken, i'd tend to speak more about neo-classical than neo-folk.

PS: sorry for the typos & capitals, but i'm typing with one finger for the next month or so

I at times have difficulty settling on which subgenre to assign an artist if they're particularly eclectic and evolve constantly through their career (a decision based on their best known work/era versus the current-day sound at which they ended up), but I argue that N&O warrant inclusion in PF on a primarily folk basis like their sister band Current 93. Like them, N&O began with industrial experiments before shifting to folk, and even then their 1990s direction was precipitated alongside the noise of their early days with the compilation tracks "Heat" and "Sex Recall" (both date from sometime in the mid to late 80s) which were basically folk songs with Cashmore's acoustic guitar and, uh, interesting vocals. The project would become better known in 1993 with a contribution to Current 93's Emblems compilation, "Hooves," displaying a more refined and gorgeous folk approach (and mercifully handing the vocals to David Tibet).

For years their best known and celebrated work has been 1994's Beauty Reaps the Blood of Solitude, which is universally established as (neo-)folk whenever you read about it (bolded on the aforementioned RYM). N&O's top representative tags on last.fm are "neofolk, neoclassical, apocalyptic folk, dark folk, dark ambient." It's interesting you only hear folkish "moments;" at this point Cashmore's compositions are an inversion of his career so far with folk as the foundation (complete with a cover of "Willow's Song" from The Wicker Man soundtrack) punctuated by occasional industrial outbursts (namely "Beauty Destroyed" and portions of "A Dozen Winters of Loneliness"). I understand where you hear neoclassical but I would only fully ascribe that to Death in a Snow Leopard Winter, which is less dense and complex than Beauty, and by Cashmore's admission it's more of a series of unrealised sketches/demos that needed vocals than a fully-fleshed out album. Like Ken mentioned, it's on Beauty's basis that N&O were being considered for PF (and that basis is expanded with those three aforementioned folk-aligned compilation tracks which predate the album, two of which can be heard here - https://penga.bandcamp.com/track/heat-prayers-sex-recall" rel="nofollow - https://penga.bandcamp.com/track/heat-prayers-sex-recall ).

I didn't even know the project had been revived until I did my research (the lack of fanfare is probably because his new direction isn't very good, to be honest). Snow Leopard Winter reminded me of the last three Hammock records, and that band's electronic post-rock side runs alongside real latter day Klaus Schulze vibes in N&O's video soundtrack and their EP of re-recorded tracks, but A Dozen Winters Against the World is at least rooted in folk while Universal Death Stream is purely electronic. So while the band's career is bookended by an electronic approach, their most recent art has one foot enough in their past to still warrant being called "folk." As with Current 93 - who you rightly noted are hard to pigeonhole yet ultimately ended up in Prog Folk - N&O are remembered more for their folk work than their industrial past, and whatever strange trajectory Cashmore is taking won't make a dent in the legacy of his 90s material.

There is no doubt in my mind that N&O belongs in the same genre as Current 93. So if N&O are not prog folk, how do the present prog folk collaborators feel about Current 93? Would they have made it into prof folk? These questions are somewhat rhetorical, because not only are there not necessarily easy answers, but they are also somewhat irrelevant.

When it comes down it, so long as a band is prog “enough” for inclusion in PA, I don’t think the genre is necessarily that important. There are numerous bands and artists in PA whose genre is, at best, questionable.

Obviously, as a collaborator myself, I have to try to be as objective as possible. But what I do always try to do, is (whenever I am reminded of other artists or bands) look to see how they have been categorised in PA. Sometimes I come across a submission for prog metal that doesn’t seem like it quite belongs, and my first impulse is to suggest a move - but then when I look back at other bands I am reminded of, or that sound similar, I find that they are within one (or two) of the prog metal genres.

The problem is not just compounded by bands and artists changing their sound and style (sometimes dramatically) over time, but by the fact that their sound could fit easily into at least two different PA genres. For example, virtually any band that plays “brutal prog” (and this is a recognised genre, whether or not you think it is necessary or helpful) could be accepted by either the RIO/Avant or Prog Metal teams - and indeed, if you Google and choose any one of the lists that might come up, you would probably find the bands in that list spread fairly equally between the PA genres.

I can definitely understand why Gordy has put N&O up for prog folk; and I can also understand Hugues having reservations. Ultimately, so long as N&O are included in PA, it becomes a moot point. But in the meantime, they need to be evaluated by a team. It’s “complicated” submissions like this that make me wish that more collaborator discussions took place in these submission posts (which, as Greg pointed out in another post like this, used to be the norm). Unfortunately it seems a lot of collaborators “ignore” submissions until they formally come to the team for evaluation. I don’t think this is done out of laziness, so much as this is just now seen as the standard way of doing things. The previous, more public, way of discussing submissions before they were taken away by one team for evaluation definitely does have advantages, in my opinion.

 

If the Prog Folk team doesn't want to take it, I say maybe I should submit it to Eclectic first and see where it goes from there.  What does everyone else think?

Sounds good to me, and thanks to Nick and Mike for their input. I'm curious though, which subgenre do you mean by "Experimental?"

good question - I think the subgenre Hugues was referring to is Experimental/Post Metal

sorry, I also just noticed tcat mentioned a possible fit in eclectic.  We could try that too if the others fail

So just to make clear: the order now is Avant -> Eclectic or Exp/Post-Metal -> back to Prog Folk?

I agree that N&O would be unlikely to be accepted by the PM team.

I’d say Prog Folk > Avant > Eclectic

I guess it depends on how rigidly collaborators view the boundaries of their genre, as N&O do exist in the grey areas between PA genres.

I completely agree, but I guess there's still a ways left to go. Just saw that the ZART team voted to move them, so I'll update the thread title and send out my signal flare to Eclectic.

It's really the "Beauty" album that might qualify them for PA, and prog folk at that.  I don't see the other stuff as being prog - just industrial IMO

I'm finally caught up with the new posts and glad to see an active, vibrant discussion. The ping-ponging between teams has honestly been confusing as I thought they were fairly clear-cut, but if Eclectic doesn't pan out I can't see a more perfect fit than Prog Folk. In a separate thread Ken mentioned he and Hugues will discuss them again if Eclectic decides to move them.

Is it worth his reading all the comments in this thread, if he has not already? It perhaps gives more context as to why Prog Folk seems the obvious fit so for many of us? 🤷🏻‍♂️

nick_h_nz wrote: This is undoubtedly one of the problems with PA, as because the collaborators change over time, there ends up with a lack of consistency not just over whether or not something is considered prog “enough” for the site, but where it fits in the site. There is no doubt in my mind that N&O belongs in the same genre as Current 93. So if N&O are not prog folk, how do the present prog folk collaborators feel about Current 93? Would they have made it into prof folk? These questions are somewhat rhetorical, because not only are there not necessarily easy answers, but they are also somewhat irrelevant. When it comes down it, so long as a band is prog “enough” for inclusion in PA, I don’t think the genre is necessarily that important. There are numerous bands and artists in PA whose genre is, at best, questionable. .... I can definitely understand why Gordy has put N&O up for prog folk; and I can also understand Hugues having reservations. Ultimately, so long as N&O are included in PA, it becomes a moot point. But in the meantime, they need to be evaluated by a team. It’s “complicated” submissions like this that make me wish that more collaborator discussions took place in these submission posts (which, as Greg pointed out in another post like this, used to be the norm). Unfortunately it seems a lot of collaborators “ignore” submissions until they formally come to the team for evaluation. I don’t think this is done out of laziness, so much as this is just now seen as the standard way of doing things. The previous, more public, way of discussing submissions before they were taken away by one team for evaluation definitely does have advantages, in my opinion.

I guess it comes down o if X is in XYZprog and then why shouldn't Y be?

Yes both projects belong somewhere on PA, C93 having some "folk" contents, but IMHO, not the biggest part of it. TBH, I really would like to get rid of Current 93 to another genre. Yes, sure it's got folk elements - whereas N&O haven't got any at all, IMHO.

As for Cashmore and his multiple solo/project mixture, it's quite confusing. the are two N&O album, plus an archive album. We could look into Cashmore as an entry in itself, but based on the two N&O albums (declared as such), I don't see this N&O project as PF if you consider music alone.

I'd be fine with that

I've also been considering if they should be accepted under Michael Cashmore's name, as for a time his only other material were a couple EPs and an LP which weren't too dissimilar from Nature and Organisation/Current 93's approach. However, the past five years have seen him enter his "midlife crisis" stage of electronic and darkwave experimentation, which may make the classification process difficult once again.

If we consider them under Cashmore's given name, he stands to be considered by Eclectic once more. Addressing his discography in chronological order we have a wide confluence of styles:

Great to hear, and sorry if my info dump caused any undue headaches.

Wishing you and your family well.