What's the shortest length for an "Epic"?
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Topic: What's the shortest length for an "Epic"?
Posted By: zwordser
Subject: What's the shortest length for an "Epic"?
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 16:11
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I've started producing some videos for my top Epic tracks; eventually I intend to post them online, (maybe even here), but I'm still sort of in the "practice" mode, having just completed the first (with some good epics outside my top 50). I've decided to work on two series: one for longer and one for shorter Epics, with the dividing line for length at about 12 minutes. I'm pretty happy with the 12m divider mark --the thing I haven't quite decided on is: how long should a track be before it is considered "Epic"? I'm kind of thinking somewhere between the 7-8 minute mark, but I thought I'd throw the question out there and see what other Prog-heads think. That said/asked, I should mention there are other factors I've thought about besides length. For example, some ~6-8 minute songs/tracks just seem to me like long songs that don't have an "epic" quality while other seem more epic-ish (often to do with the subject, arrangement, instrumentation, etc.). ------------- Z |
Replies:
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 16:18
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There's more to an epic than just lenth. Does the song have a sense of high drama both musically and lyrically? Are there dramatic changes in time signitures and tempos. Are there extended instrumental music passages in the song? If you have some of these traits than a 7-8 minute song is just fine. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 16:24
| 10 minutes maybe? Not sure. For me personally I would say 15 minutes since I consider "awaken" to be an epic but not "heart of the sunrise" or "starship trooper." |
Posted By: zwordser
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 16:34
True enough about other factors, though length, for me, will be the biggest factor. This may be another, (though related) topic, but I'm not quite sure that "extended instrumental" passages necessarily make a track "epic". In fact I was going to dis-include anything that was what you might call an "extended jam", though the only track for my purposes that is really on the fence here is Zappa's "Gumbo Variations"-- I really love it, and its superb instrumentation, but it has more of a jam quality, and I'm not sure I'd call it "epic". I guess it depends on how you define the word.
------------- Z |
SteveG wrote:Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 16:40
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123509&PN=5" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123509&PN=5
No idea, just posting this past link on same topic from July 2020....but 15 minutes gets mentioned often. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 16:41
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For me an epic song tends to be packed with emotion, and takes you on a journey, such as (love them or hate them) Bohemian Rhapsody (6 mins), Stairway to Heaven (8 mins), or American Pie (8.5 mins), to quote three very familiar examples. it's not all about length. ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 16:45
Based on your definition, I give you rock's shortest epic at 2:46.... ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 16:49
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Good shout! ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 16:52
| Hard to say. Epics for me are more about the content than their length. I would probably say 8 minutes, but is not something carved in stone either. |
Posted By: zwordser
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 17:00
Well, not quite the same topic, but closely related. Right, 15 minutes was mentioned there a couple times, along with other shorter lengths. But I've already rejected 15 minutes as a "shorter" epic. To me, shorter ones tend to cluster around 10 minutes. ------------- Z |
Posted By: zwordser
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 17:07
Well, there lies the real issue. ------------- Z |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 17:14
I still believe my definition of "epic" from the previous thread is correct:
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 17:25
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 17:48
| Are suites and epics the same thing? I can surely think of suites, like James Taylor's Suite For 20G, that are truly brief. They use to feature a more complex structure than the usual song form, but one can still reply that an epic needs something more, it needs to build momentum by the minute leading to a climax. Whatever its minimal lenght may be, it needs not to block such a development, I guess. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 17:50
Hmmm...how about this at 2:46? I could provide a complete protest song at 31 seconds... ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 17:54
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Can't do it, huh? I thought not but it's a good try. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: April 24 2021 at 21:12
8 to 10 min
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Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 01:57
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 02:01
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I'd argue length is honestly secondary. One of my favorite qualities of YES is they make a 20+ min song feel like 5 mins. Some bands are the opposite. If we're looking at it in terms of an arguable time length for the sake of thread conversation, 10+ mins seems fair. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 02:57
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I definitely don’t think it is length (or, at least, length alone) that defines an epic. If it is length, then even then it depends on the genre, or band, and what is the average length of a song. So it’s still impossible to declare an arbitrary length the point at which a song becomes an epic. If a band normally writes songs that last three to five minutes, then what is an epic for them would be different from a band that normally writes songs that last ten to twelve minutes. And a grind core band that normally writes songs that last from 30 to 90 seconds probably considers a two minute song an epic! 😜 ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 03:35
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Intuitively I would have said 15 minutes, but maybe that's also because of the association with filled up LP sides. Thinking about it more, indeed the type of music does matter; I think for a band with a more concise sound like Gentle Giant I would probably call it an epic from about 12 minutes, while I don't really think of Pink Floyd's side fillers ('Echoes'?) as epics as much as their style is already pretty drawn out. ------------- 
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Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 05:48
I love this point ^, bringing the jam song into the conversation. This factor definitely comes into play if you're going to use the term "epic" since, as SteveG says, drama, varying perspectives, etc. are keys to the classic term "epic" or, as the Norse use, the term "saga", for instrumentals, "symphonies" and "concerti" with their "movements." Personally, I just simplify everything and go to length as the great equalizer: 9-12 mins. are "mid-length epics" and "12+" "long epics"--just as you described in your OP. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 05:53
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Epic as in dragged out or epic as in a powerful piece, symphonic perhaps. Something may be epic right from the beginning (e.g. Kashmir, Stargazer) as opposed to waiting for the thing to end forget how it began thus demanding repeated plays.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 05:57
that's just fine with me. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 07:05
 100% agree. Length alone does not satisfy my expectations of an 'Epic'.By all accounts this is an 'EPIC' song from an 'EPIC' album. and it's under 4 minutes. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 09:29
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Saw this...not the holy grail , just posting it...so caveat emptor. All you experts feel free to argue over it.  https://progreport.com/top-20-prog-epic-songs/ We asked you guys to send is your top 3 Prog Epics a few weeks ago and now we are pleased to reveal the results. Here are the Top 20 Prog Epic songs as voted by you, the fans. (So you can’t get mad at us ????). 1 Genesis – Supper’s Ready ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 09:36
I tend to agree...over 10 minutes ..multiple chord changes....a myth works because that was what many of the original epic poems were all about btw...long tales with gods and or the supernatural...of course this is now and we are talking about songs so like everything else the word has been co opted. Oh....a guy in a funny suit is optional.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: zwordser
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 09:40
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Yep, most of that list is in my top 50 or so for the 12+m category (besides a couple there I haven't heard), though, not quite in that order. ------------- Z |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 09:51
I was joking, of course (although capes, codpieces and fox heads seem to follow prog epics). I am not really interested about the length of a piece in regards to the work being epic. Obviously, there is a point where a simple song passes through the portal of "epicness". I would suggest there are at least a few prog songs that are epic and clock in at over 5 or 6 minutes. I would consider "Comfortably Numb" at 6:21 as epic. So too, "Bohemian Rhapsody" at 5:55 is epic. And who could argue that this composition at 5:45 does not exhibit every aspect of what could be defined as epic: ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 09:56
Hi, Honestly, if you want to make a difference and put together something special, I really think that you should concentrate more on the work itself than its length at this time ... The idea that the length defines something is insane, and I like to say something more for the top of the pop'rs around here ... so if that is your aim ... go ahead, but I think that your work will be diluted and not worthy of attention! Plz don't be like that one guy that had really good stuff, but he cut it all down to 3 minutes for some kind of invisible audience, and the work is like a half eaten steak by your dog on your plate ... just sad, all around, that someone has no idea what it means to be "artistic" and is more concerned with length ... we should talk to Wagner, btw ... see if he cares? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Homotopy
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 10:18
| 10 min. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 10:26
The problem, as always, is one of definition and is subjective ( especially here on 'prog rock analysis' forum). How one wants to define 'epic' is the issue here. Those are all great tracks you mentioned...for me they are not epic prog tracks but again it's all subjective. To paraphrase and steal an old saying...I can't tell you what is or isn't epic prog ,but I know it when I hear it. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 10:48
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123557" rel="nofollow - Here is another thread with many suggestions of short epics... (if you agree or not...). ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 13:27
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If I listen to an epic backwards, thus giving me a negative time, would you not get progressively shorter songs the longer the song is backwards, and thus cause the universe to collapse and ruin my breakfast? ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: zwordser
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 14:09
Yeah, I searched the topic before posting, but should have set the search back further. ------------- Z |
Posted By: zwordser
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 14:40
The "difference" I hope to make is to generate some interest in the music, but something "special" is not necessarily my aim (I kind of don't like the word). I disagree that defining something by length is "insane" (???). I'm focusing on epics partly because as I look at my top Prog tracks, most of them are the lengthy ones. Not quite sure what you're getting at with the last paragraph, but I'm modeling the vids somewhat after some I've seen and liked, with a few extras. ------------- Z |
Posted By: Earl of Mar
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 16:14
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There are lots of tracks around the 10 min mark that to me have an epic feel. Achilles Last Stand, Kashmir, Stargazer and a few more on the more rock side. Xanadu,the Camera Eye, Cygnus x1, Eleventh Earl of Mar,One for the Vine, Mad Man Moon, Nimrodel etc. Other tracks like Come Sail Away and Fools overture ( a smidgen over 10 mins) have an epic feel. Think it's more the feel rather than the length that appeals to me, one of my " epic " favourite tracks is Al Stewart's Roads to Moscow that is only just 8 mins long. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 25 2021 at 23:44
I don't disagree with anything on this list. I also agree with whomever spoke of rise and fall in drama and tension being good indicators. Song length is irrelevant if those characteristics are achieved IMHO! Most of my favorite pieces just happen to be chronologically longer, simply because I enjoy more music from those bands. Example: most people despise Yes TFTGO saying it's too long, padded, etc.; I love it FOR those reasons. It sounds like Yes making more music for my ears to hear, and that's all I care about lol. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 07:53
| Headlong (7:30) and Common Ground (7:00) by IQ are both definitely epic to my ears. I'm sure there are many others by a lot of bands - to me, they don't have to all be so long to be epic.... |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 08:45
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I'd say don't worry about length and focus on content. Let that dictate how long it needs to be. If you make it too short it might feel rushed. For me "epic" would need to involve multiple suites and at least 10 minutes long. -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Greenmist
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 09:08
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Its quite hard deciding on this arbitrary line as to "how long should a song be before it can be called an epic". Id probably say it should be at least 14 or 15 mins. But i know there's plenty of epic songs that go on for 20 mins or more. I think its more about the structures of the song as opposed to the lenght of them. Its like a couple of songs on Metallica's album An Justice For All, are just shy of 10 mins long, but i wouldent call them epics, i would just call them typical songs that just drag on long lol. I think for a song to be classed as an epic, its gotta take you on a journey, kind of tell you a story. Bring you in and out of different moods, work like a film score song. I think Queen's song Bohemian Rhapsody does this, but it lasts less than 7 mins.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 09:19
We’ll have to check up with the rule book  It’s just a made up word about tracks with changing segments that feel grandiose...and long. Personally speaking, I always thought of Genesis Can-utility and The Coastliners as a mini-epic. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 11:54
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 13:15
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I have become used to drawing the line at 15:00. ------------- 
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 14:09
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I would posit that "Wonderous Stories" by Yes has all of the elements of an "epic," and it is only 3:54. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 20:14
Hi, Having been a writer for almost 50 years, I can tell you that the "generate some interest in the music", is a bit of a fallacy ... so during a period of your life you spend X amount of hours on such and such, and in the end, it didn't matter ... you end up feeling like you could just have done 3 minutes and maybe come close to what you thought. The hard part of all this, is that you can NOT predict your audience, even if you think you are doing the very thing they like ... only to find them ignoring you ... which kinda means ... just do your thing and stop worrying about anything else ... it's bad enough that you have to change this note here or there, only to find that someone in the audience doesn't like it!
Length is a bit of an illusion ... sometimes you can go after a whale and it takes 700 pages or go after a war and it takes 1000 pages ... then you get a pulp writer, and the whale can be done in 50 pages and the war in 10 (gotta hide all the bad stuff!!!). However, other than pop rockers, I have never heard anyone else complaint about "length" in anything ... and us thinking that something or other is "epic" because of its length, kinda states that the definition of the term has changed over time, and is now relegated to the top of the pops as well ...
I would not even consider focusing on "epics" ... if you are going to create YOUR OWN EPIC, it will not be modelled after anything else, and the faster you recognize that, the better ... you do not want to be compared to someone else, or something else, specially when so many of those "epics" are just another song format extended, and should not, more than likely, be considered "epic" because it has nothing new to show us. Or worse ... the lyrics told you so! And you, the fool, believed it! I'm writing another novel, and it flows on its own ... the design is "its own", and not something that I have thought about (I don't often know what it is all about until the end!) ... my characters are "free" in that they want to do this or go there and so on, and it is fine, it's still a story about those characters, and the fact that one moment that they wanted to go into the pie shop to buy an apple pie for mamma, is part of the whole ... not something that gets taken out because you want to cut down "its length". From a writer's perspective, it is all about your desire to create something ... but you are adding too many filters in front of you, so you can create something that everyone else will like the same as they did other pieces ... and in MY EXPERIENCE ... the less filters you use, the better things will turn out ... and you work the music to clarify the point ... not bend the music to fit a style or something as silly as an "epic". ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 22:13
| I go with the 15 minute mark myself. |
Posted By: Neo-Romantic
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 23:06
Well said ------------- May God bless you all in Jesus' name. No matter who you are, you're special, you're loved, and you matter. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 26 2021 at 23:23
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People keep using the word "feel" to describe songs; I think feel determines epic. Rise, fall, drama, etc. Some songs do it in three mins, some take several and still get nowhere lol. Here's a question: what's the WORST epic, regardless of length, PA? ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: April 27 2021 at 00:39
Yes, "Fly from Here," Parts I through V. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 27 2021 at 01:25
Any other contenders? I'll make a loose thread/maybe a poll. I feel like this is more challenging and interesting LOL. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 27 2021 at 02:17
Every track from TFTO. Honourable mentions: Hergest Ridge, Ommadawn ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: April 27 2021 at 06:36
In all honesty, I have to nominate CTTE. I just don't get it, and I have tried again and again. I actually find it quite painful....
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 27 2021 at 08:40
Hi, Nononono. (kinda quoting MP) .... we gotta create a committee, to decide on a committee so we can start deciding on a rule book first. THEN, we can start on what rules to put there ... the first one is, of course, .... (use your imagination!).  ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 27 2021 at 08:50
Hi, Kevin Ayers throwing up in one album? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 27 2021 at 16:03
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In order for something to be epic, it has to be narrative in one way or another, no? I believe many so-called 'epics' in prog are more related to f.e. movements in symphonies. Btw, it's weird how people use the word 'epic' today, f.e. in the meanings 'great', 'amazing', 'weird in an entertaining way' and so on.
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Posted By: zwordser
Date Posted: April 27 2021 at 16:06
Moshkito, seems like you're making too many assumptions about what I
expect and/or understand or should expect/understand, therefore I should do or not do X or Y. To your last responses:
Seems
you're well-intentioned (sometimes hard to tell online, but I tend to
give people the benefit of the doubt) and I'm guessing, with your years
of experience, that you are at least a very good, if not a great writer.
But almost nothing you said is ringing with me, possibly (in part at least) because what
I'm making is more of a compilation, not a creative work in the same
sense as a novel. That doesn't mean I'm not using some creative elements
(fades, transitions, etc.) but overall it really is about the music and
the artists who made it more than anything. Didn't you say in an
earlier post, something about it being "about the music"? Ok, I agree.
Placing videos into categories of longer and shorter "Epics" is NOT
going to detract in any way from THAT. ------------- Z |
).