How integral is Renaissance for prog listening
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=126064
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Topic: How integral is Renaissance for prog listening
Posted By: Icarium
Subject: How integral is Renaissance for prog listening
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 00:40
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What i mean by that is a litle bit clonky to express but I will elaborate. Before me joining PA (in 2008), Renaissance struck me, not just as an important prog act, before i got introduced to the term the big 5 or the top 7 prog bands. I would logicly include Renaissance in either. I could swap Pink Floyd for Renaissance. As i also view Floyd in the category of British Invation (seccond wave) and that in itself is making Floyd in my bracket order, slightly different. Renaissance fits perfectly alongside King Crimson, Genesis, Emerson, Lake & Palmer and Yes. But I would not deny Pink Floyds possition as among the big 5 either. I just in my difficult one can also swap them. But both are integral in the big 7 (if we just focus on Britain). I have not listend to nearly as much Ren. As i have done any of the other very known bands. But when they are encounterd, they strike me as a profound sonicly and enriching band witha colour pallet of sound so thick and intricate it's silly and dumb not to count them as an integral band in the prog family. I in particular like the bass playing on albums like Illusion. And not purely symphonic either, therr are some interesting jazzy playing on some of the songs on it. Its crispy and fresh as a summer breeze. I just wantes to express how easly one can forgett how influentual and inspiring a band like Renaissance can be. I feel i have and do neglect them but I also want to raize an awareness for this incredible band. -------------  
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Replies:
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 01:19
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I'm the guy that will always argue nothing is essential, all that matters is what you like to hear! Over time your tastes naturally expand and you "find" bands that suddenly make sense, that were there the whole time. You didn't overlook them, you grew into them! Just MHO! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 01:31
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I forgott to talk or include Jethro Tull in the argument of essentials; but that makes me think that i value Jethro Tull and Renaissance as equals in terms of how i view their impact. Both have a blues that transforms itself into a symph /folk mammoth band. So i respect them equaly. -------------
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Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 01:42
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As Roger Waters once commented, what matters is whether a song moves you or not. Expanding on that, an artist will either press all your buttons or not, so what you find to be essential or 'integral' prog is entirely down to personal tastes and preferences. Renaissance are certainly in my top 10 prog artists of all times. I'm not going to get into the argument about whether the Floyd (my favourite band of all time) are prog or not, otherwise all hell will let loose on here. ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 01:54
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I'm not sure what's meant by 'important' in this context. Important to the individual listener, or important to the genre and beyond? If by important we mean that an act is highly influential inside and/or outside the genre, then I'm not sure how much emphasis I would place on Renaissance, as much as I love their music personally, and would probably rank them in my prog top 10. I don't think they are as 'important' as Floyd or Crimson or Genesis in this regard. Fantastic band nonetheless. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 02:11
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If you ignore everything post Azure d'Or then they are certainly up there at the top table of prog. [Similarly Genesis are truly great (in a purely prog sense) up to and including Wind and Wuthering.] Just my twopennorth. http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=3028" rel="nofollow - ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 04:26
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Blacksword wrote:Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 04:33
I agree, it's down to how important they are to you. They're quite a big prog band although not in the same league as your Yese and Genesises. I would say they're worth a listen to anyone who ls interested in prog but if you don't like them them move on.
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 05:21
| No band is integral or essential. It's about personal preferences. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 06:06
How integral or not depends on whether the person is looking at exploring prog in an academic way and just covering the canonically important bands. I wouldn't call Ren a canonically important band, especially compared to the other band you mentioned - Jethro Tull. HOWEVER, if you want to show a naysayer that prog doesn't have to be strange keyboard tones, lots of fast playing over distracting time sig changes and can be just soulful and beautiful to bask in, Ren is absolutely integral as part of the prog experience.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 06:28
Stop it. Renaissance is a footnote. They had a few good albums in the mid-70s, had very little popularity, and....that's it. I suppose if you like vanilla ice cream, or tapioca, or plain yogurt, they are the band for you. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 08:55
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If you mean to say are they 'essential or fundamental' , then no. If someone is into prog already and has all the usual suspects I would certainly recommend they look into Renaissance...a good solid symph band . ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 11:08
I guess you are referring to this couple here? I would say it is purely coincidental that they happen to like Renaissance. They might be more interested in vocals than prog listeners typically are. In my experience, Renaissance isn't necessarily a surefire hit with prog listeners in the way those other bands are because they offer an appealing tone and texture rather than the unpredictability that prog listeners usually look for. As for your last statement, sorry, complete disagree on that. ELP could fill gigantic stadiums. JT had multiple albums going Gold with Aqualung going triple Platinum in the US. Not one Renaissance album reached Gold in the US and only Song for All Seasons managed to reach Silver in the UK. You 'only' need to sell 100,000 albums to reach Gold in the UK and even Renaissance's most commercially successful album, especially one with a single that reached the top 10 there, couldn't get to Gold. Let's have some perspective here. Irrespective of your likes or dislikes, ELP and JT are massively influential bands in a way Renaissance never were.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 11:12
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 11:14
My recommendation is to resist easy numbering schemes such as Big 5 or Top 10. Such numberings are the result of various opinions and tastes which may or may not correspond with your own. They can also be quite arbitrary. There is no reason for a band like Renaissance to bump out a band like Pink Floyd. The fact that Tull was overlooked in the original post shows the arbitrariness of such distinctions. I like to look at top 10 lists, but my interest is more about seeing what someone or group considers top 10 rather than letting them determine who should be in the list. Influence is historical and is often allied with popularity (but not always). Preference is personal. Fanboyism insists the two are the same. Look at the lists to see what other people think, let them guide your explorations, but never ever use them to determine what is important and/or enjoyable to you.  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 11:14
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Back to the topic, a lot of musicians like Renaissance but I can't recall one ever saying that they were an influence. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 11:18
| they were second tier in terms of popularity in the prog world. They sold a lot of albums in the US, particularly for a band with a decidedly "uncommercial" sound. I think they remain very relevant because very few bands sounded like them which allows them to occupy a historic niche in prog. Annie's voice has a lot to do with it but also the way the incorporated symphonics was different from Yes and ELP, for instance |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 11:22
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 11:25
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If you wanted a fairly gentle introduction to mainstream prog rock then they'd be a very good introduction band. Beyond that they're 'nice'. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 12:29
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How integral is Renaissance for prog listening? For me, not at all. I have "Scheherazade And Other Stories" and do like the album. It kind of reminds me of Jefferson Starship. But it is not an essential part of my music collection. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 12:53
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 12:59
Perhaps he means Renaissance is to prog as Jefferson Starship is to rock. If you accidentally drop a Starship CD out of your car window, you probably won't waste the money to replace it. Nice here and there, but really not anything to be upset about. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 13:00
What??? Seriously??? ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 13:06
Well, "Trip To The Fair" sounds like something from Mary Poppins, but other parts did bring to my mind Jefferson Starship, though I didn't want to suggest a strong similarity. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 14:49
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I would say there are parts of Prologue and Ashes that seem a bit similar to Jefferson Airplane but I don't hear the Starship comparison. |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 15:30
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Prologue and Ashes are fantastic lps that perhaps didnt get the initial success that they should have in UK (their classic status came with time) and that pushed them to look for commercial success overseas (they certainly weren't unique in that..) I think that Annie Haslems voice and Betty Thatchers lyrics certainly made something very unique that became an essential part of the progressive rock canon with time.. ------------- |
Posted By: Artik
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 18:49
| For me Renaissance are among bands that are essential prog from the classic era of the genre, but were somewhat overlooked, just like Gentle Giant, Camel, Caravan, Van Der Graaf Generator. Renaissance fits nicely with the pack. Not worst than some obvious names, maybe less influential as their fanbase was considerably smaller and their aesthetic somewhat unique, but the same can be said about any of the above-mentioned bands. I love all of them and will put them on any top prog list along with Yes, King Crimson, Genesis, ELP and Jethro Tull. As much as I love Pink Floyd I would struggle to restrict their style to prog, so Renaissance fits there even better for me. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 21:44
| Also, Annie has put together an admirable touring group that has proven equal to the task of performing the classic material in the last 10-15 years. The several live DVDs prove that, and their eagerness to vary the live set has been met with enthusiasm from a still loyal and decent sized audience in the US Northeast. This has helped their legacy |
Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 22:45
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Annie's solo catalogue is more than decent too - I don't think she's made a bad album yet. The most proggy is probably 'Annie in Wonderland' which was largely a collaboration with Roy Wood. Though why she hasn't got her own entry on this site, maybe under 'prog related' is a bit of a mystery. ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 22:46
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My personal experience is if. I enjoy the music than that’s fabulous. But if not than that isn’t worth worrying about. ------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake." Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 22:49
Indeed there are bands that are beloved of many prog fans that I just cannot get into (however much I try) such as Gentle Giant, VDGG, Gong, and indeed much of the Canterbury sub-genre, apart from Caravan, doesn't really press my buttons. It's horses for courses.
------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: April 16 2021 at 23:15
Excellently put. ------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake." Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 17 2021 at 02:59
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Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: April 17 2021 at 13:18
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Check out Illusion's two albums with Jane Relf.. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: April 17 2021 at 13:26
Sadly, Annie Haslam has already been rejected for inclusion in PA after I suggested she be added last year.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 17 2021 at 13:27
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The OP is probably aware of the Illusion albums but they might be a good suggestion for the "Mary Poppins" haters. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 17 2021 at 13:30
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: April 17 2021 at 14:59
That is rhubarb. ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 17 2021 at 15:03
thank you for that insult, so kind...
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 17 2021 at 17:45
True. I once knew a guy who seemed to like every prog band except Yes.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 17 2021 at 21:22
Why, surely her solo work doesn't have anything to do with prog. Next we'll be including Kenny G or Toni Braxton in prog-related.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: April 18 2021 at 02:40
Well, from that reply and several others it appears I'm in a minority of one in wanting to see Annie Haslam added to ProgArchives.  By the way, Roger, I happen to like Kenny G and Toni Braxton, but I know they're about as related to prog as Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" album is.
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