Crossover Prog vs. Progressive Pop
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Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=125124
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Topic: Crossover Prog vs. Progressive Pop
Posted By: IndianaParkWars
Subject: Crossover Prog vs. Progressive Pop
Date Posted: January 12 2021 at 22:50
| What is the difference between the two? They both seem like the same thing to me, a variation of progressive rock with elements related to pop whether it's in the structure, style, or sound of the music. |
Replies:
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: January 12 2021 at 23:17
Welcome to PA! I'll let some others comment, I admit that the terms used around here can be confusing!! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
IndianaParkWars wrote:Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: January 12 2021 at 23:43
| I think Crossover is a broader term. A band/artist that would consistently be considered Progressive Pop would probably end up under Crossover here. If they have a few works that would be Progressive Pop, they may be put as Prog Related here instead. But Crossover Prog is not synonymous with Progressive Pop. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 12 2021 at 23:49
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They're synonyms as far as I'm concerned, but I'm not a pro in that sub-genre! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 00:30
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 01:02
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Crossover prog doesn't necessarily have to be rooted in pop. Any (fairly) simple genre will do. Obviously there is alot of cross pollination, and if something has strong enough pop leanings but still manages to be progressive it would land there. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: IndianaParkWars
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 01:12
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Hmm. So would Progressive Pop then be a subgenre of Crossover Prog? Along with Progressive Folk, Progressive Bluegrass, Progressive Metal, and Progressive House? I'm guessing the parent genre is Progressive Rock, which breaks up into its many subgenres, Crossover Prog being one of them. And then maybe Crossover Prog breaks down into other non-rock Prog genres? Am I onto something or going totally off the wrong track?
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Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 01:23
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 01:29
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"Music most people would refrain from listening to on their own volition" is a more succinct description of most prog in general LOL. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 10:19
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Hmm....I looked at the Crossover Prog section and none of the 'main entries' there are all that 'poppy' to me (perhaps Supertramp at times...)...I would ask which specific bands are poeople referring to that straddle those two categories...?
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 10:45
I think Kate Bush is one Crossover Prog artist who's more pop than prog.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 12:15
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Everything nowadays is Crossover Prog, "prog" being the key word as nothing is "progressive" anymore, it's all been done and recorded. Progressive Pop, to me describes a pop song that might be using some off tempo, odd measures different structures to the sound but being 100% pop in nature where 4/4 is the main theme. Rick Beato does those videos "I listened to the Top 10 Pop Songs..." and he breaks down the ones that are interesting to him musically. There are some he highlights that catch his attention regarding tempo, pace, odd measures/beats and use of acoustic/analog instruments. In most cases he deems the songs pretty generic riffs...... -------------   
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 13:48
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Crossover wears capes and fishnets. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 13:51
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Not sure who you would put in the progressive pop category. Asia maybe? 80's Genesis? Some Bowie?
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 14:04
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A bird in the band is worth two in the Kate Bush.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 15:16
Both Asia and Genesis are rock bands, not pop. I have not thought about what bands, possibly bands like Chicago, Fleetwood Mac....It's tough cause these bands could still be/are rock. I would push myself to state that it could be artists like Madonna, Lady Gaga, Prince, Maroon 5 artists that are 100% pop, although Prince crossed into many genres and I don't know Maroon 5 but they are popular it seems. To me both Madonna and Lady Gaga are very progressive for their genre of music. -------------
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 15:37
| For me most (if not all)of the bands labelled as crossover on here could also be considered what I would call art rock. That is to say stuff like 10cc, supertramp, Styx, Ambrosia, Moody Blues, City Boy, Roxy Music etc. That is to say bands that mostly focus on shorter songs but with all the prog toppings. Neo prog sort of picked up where these bands left off but were more influenced by Yes, Genesis and Camel where as these bands were contemporaries of those bands and so weren't really influenced by them. That's the way I see it anyway. |
Posted By: IndianaParkWars
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 15:57
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Understandable! But I think I may enjoy theorizing/classifying/organizing just as much as I enjoy listening to music! I'm working on a project where I'm exploring all the different genres, subgenres, styles, and movements and defining them and organizing them, etc. Crossover vs Progressive Pop was a roadblock, but I think I know how to push through it.
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Posted By: IndianaParkWars
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 16:07
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Okay, so I'm looking at all of the response and I did a lot of thinking myself. I think I might have a cohesive answer between the different subgenres. Everyone seems to be hitting the right spots of where I think I'm getting with it. So, to me Crossover Prog seems like Progressive Rock that has elements of other genres (beyond the normal genre-busting nature of prog) like pop, folk, bluegrass, jazz, etc. but not enough of that element to classify it as a different subgenre (like Progressive Pop, Progressive Folk, Progressive Bluegrass, Jazz Fusion, etc.). So, Crossover Prog is Progressive Rock with elements of other genres but not enough to substantiate it as a different subgenre or enough to say it's just plain-old Progressive Rock. It seems Crossover Prog is the term created for those in-betweeners. Also, I feel like Crossover Prog can include a mixture of genres that are crossed-over, like a little bit of folk and pop but not enough to be considered another genre and not lacking so much that it's not just Progressive Rock. I see Progressive Pop less as a Progressive Rock with pop elements genre and more of a Pop genre with Progressive elements. SO............. anyway I feel like you can classify The Moody Blues as a few different genres. Symphonic Rock, Progressive Rock, Psychedelic Rock. But, I think they're also Crossover Prog. (These might vary between songs and albums as well). But, The Beach Boys have progressive elements but they're more of a pop band. They're also Surf Rock and Pop Rock, but for their more progressive music, I would call them Progressive Pop, since the nature of the music is pop with some prog elements rather than prog with some pop elements. It's nitpicky as f#ck, but I think this may be the best way to analyze this. And it's all part of my genre project, so it falls into place in the big picture :)
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 16:45
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^ Right........If your gonna try to define Progressive Pop, it needs to be like you state, pop music with some prog elements, so I'd also add it should be called Prog Pop. Nothing is progressive anymore, it's all been done. And the prog elements can be anything, not just related to what we understand as prog. Parliament/Funkadelic was hugely progressive in their early days, as most bands were. Jazz was one of the biggest progressive music genres, so much experimentation going on its cra-cra!! -------------
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Posted By: IndianaParkWars
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 16:58
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I'd argue that not everything's been done! But a lot has been... But otherwise, yeah you're absolutely right.
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 16:59
| Crossover Prog happened on this site when they split Art Rock into Crossover and Eclectic. As far as this site goes, Crossover is a division of Art Rock. |
Posted By: IndianaParkWars
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 17:05
| Thanks! That is super interesting. I would think Progressive Rock would divide into Crossover and Eclectic and Art Rock would be more of a separate thing, combining Prog with Pop, but keeping a lot of the progressive elements. Art Rock almost being like Progressive Rock for the masses, but still retaining the element of counterculture and artistic value. I guess like Prog, but less of the uncommon time signatures, long movements, and "weird" elements. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 17:17
For this site.....Progressive Rock is the umbrella that all these sub-genres fit under. -------------
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 18:04
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 20:44
My apologies to the forum...off Topic: I have to ask...what is IndianaParkWars referrng to and do you live in White County, IN? ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 22:51
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From my understanding, Progressive Rock would fall under the very large umbrella of Art Rock. It makes sense that the term was retired here. It's like squares and rectangles. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. So I've heard some bands, like Supertramp or Radiohead, called Art Rock bands. But not everyone would consider them "Prog" (though certainly Progressive in context). Either way, after investigating a definition of Art Rock, one would probably find it indicates that Prog groups would fit within that description (at least, the Rock groups would). As for some of the features of Crossover listed, many of them could also describe an Eclectic group. I've found the thing that delineates them is that Crossover has "crossover appeal." Particularly with other genres that are/were more commercial, like straight pop, classic rock, blues, alternative, R'n'B, etc. Yezda Urfa takes cues from a couple different styles, but there's no way they would have appeal to the general masses. So they're in Eclectic. I know some of you think this is tedious and pointless, and that's fine. But I like analysis, history, classification, genres within genres, etc., and I know I'm not the only nerd here who does. Fun discussions.
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Posted By: IndianaParkWars
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 23:35
| I do not live there! The name IndianaParkWars is my portmanteau of my three favorite film franchises as a child: Indiana Jones, Jurassic Park, and Star Wars. |
Posted By: IndianaParkWars
Date Posted: January 13 2021 at 23:41
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You're my kind of guy! I adore the tedium of classifying different genres and styles. I completely agree with you on crossover. I think you hit the nail on the head. The difference would be the appeal. Eclectic doesn't appeal to mass audiences. Crossover does. That's exactly where I was going with the differentiation! The only thing I might disagree on is saying Art Rock is the parent genre of Progressive Rock. I'd like to think they are separate subgenres of rock. They're both similar but different beasts.
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: January 14 2021 at 00:07
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It appears these forums indirectly agree that labels are needed for newcomers, but after a certain point of experience, you start seeing how the genres/sub-genres break down and kind of just blend. Of course there are going to be clear-cut delineation between certain styles, but honestly the more prog you listen to the more you start to realize it really is all just magic, labeled for sorting, filing, and location convenience. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 14 2021 at 08:48
I catalog all my music under a label called MUSIC. -------------
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Posted By: IndianaParkWars
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 02:54
| Haha and I keep all my food in one drawer! I call it CUPBOARD ;) |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 03:00
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I have a separate rack or shelf for each genre of music in my CD collection and so far I have 25 racks/shelves of music.
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Posted By: IndianaParkWars
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 03:02
| Oooh. I'd love to hear how you organize these! What are your different shelves? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 03:08
Me too. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 03:17
Okay, here goes with another list. Alternative Rock/Indie Rock Box Sets Classical Crossover Country Dance Music Disco Easy Listening Electronica Folk Hard Rock Heavy Metal/Symphonic Metal Indie Pop Jazz-Funk/Smooth Jazz New Age Pop/Rock (2 racks) Prog Rock Psychedelic Pop Psychedelic Rock Sophisti-Pop Soul/Motown Soundtracks Synth Pop Various Artists Compilations Vocal: Female Vocal: Male
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 03:20
 25?! make a list since you love making them anyway. You made me curious.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 03:24
I already made a list, if you take a look above.  It took me awhile, because I had to go all around the house counting up my music racks/shelves and writing them all down.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 03:30
what's indie-pop? Sounds like an oxymoron to me What's "Vocal:Female" and "Vocal:Male"? So confusing it's almost funny. Sophisti-pop? Who invented this term? Sounds ridiculous. What heavy metal albums do you listen to? This I gotta see, please give examples.
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Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 03:37
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I don’t understand organising a (physical) music collection by genre. Anything other than alphabetical would just be too troublesome for me to find anything. Let alone choose where to place something, since bands so often straddle multiple genres. And what about bands that change their music so much over time that some of their discography is one distinct genre, and some in another completely different? For me, it’s all music I enjoy enough that I have purchased a physical copy of it. That’s as much of a classification I need, and from there alphabetical organisation works just fine for me. Organising by genre seems as strange a system to me as ordering by record label (which I know some people do). However, we are all different, so I’m never going to suggest any one way is more right or better. Whatever works for you is good for you. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 04:00
Okay, I'll start with Indie Pop, which is a recognised music genre, and not one I've made up. My Indie Pop CD collection, with the number of albums (in brackets):- Beach House (2) The Beautiful South (9) The Blow Monkeys (1) Camera Obscura (5) Paul Heaton & Jacqui Abbott (2) The Housemartins (1) I Am Kloot (1) The Icypoles (1) The Leisure Society (1) London Grammar (2) Mull Historical Society (2) Sixpence None the Richer (1) The Sundays (2) Sweetmouth (1) The Thrills (3) Tired Pony (1) Sophisti-Pop coming up next... |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 04:12
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^ I only asked you what it was, listing artists does nothing for me to understand the oxymoronic indie-pop. I asked for heavy metal examples, a music genre I just don't see you listening to.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 05:19
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^ My Sophisti-Pop CD collection. I don't make these genres up, honestly! Basia (2) Deacon Blue (8) The Divine Comedy (5) Everything But the Girl (6) Bryan Ferry (6) Julia Fordham (3) Go West (1) Hothouse Flowers (1) Level 42 (1) Lighthouse Family (3) Prefab Sprout (6) Roxy Music (2) Rumer (4) Sade (6) Simply Red (8) Spandau Ballet (1) Swing Out Sister (3) Tears for Fears (5) Heavy Metal/Symphonic Metal coming up next...
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 07:13
| There's no need to post your entire music collection, really. |
Posted By: Ronstein
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 07:21
What! No Belle and Sebastian. Disgraceful!!
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 07:23
I don't suppose Cristi will ever get to see my Heavy/Symphonic Metal collection then.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 07:57
that was the only one he wanted to see!
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 08:07
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My Heavy/Symphonic Metal CD Collection:- Black Sabbath (4) Delain (1) Dream Theater (7) Epica (1) Evanescence (2) Leaves' Eyes (2) Nightwish (7) Ozzy Osbourne (2) Tarja Turunen (4) Within Temptation (5) |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 08:32
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 09:23
Thank you!  |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 09:30
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 11:32
| To be fair, Cristi, those sub-genres DO exist. A quick search will reveal them. Indie hasn't really been about being "independent" for years (for many bands), since it got WAY popular. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 11:43
I was trying to pull his leg, but i do find those genre names a bit ridiculous, especially sophisti-pop. I guess art-pop was not good enough.
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 11:46
Sophisti-Pop:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophisti-pop" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophisti-pop Which reminds me, I forgot to include my 6 albums by Sade in my Sophisti-Pop list.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 11:47
thank you Winking Paul, I did check it out on my own.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 11:58
So you're mocking him, because he enjoys music called indie-pop, which I have heard and everyone knows that exists. As well calling an artist like Sade sophisticated-pop, which I can see based on her style, since you may not understand it you make fun of it......ok  -------------
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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 12:04
This is almost like poking a hornet's nest. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 12:06
not "sophisticated-pop", but sophisti-pop, now how does this not sound ridiculous? I guess I'm not sophisticated enough for sophisti-pop, will you ever forgive me?
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 12:38
^ Well, at least you know I wasn't making up the Sophisti-Pop genre now, even if it does sound silly. 
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 13:01
| ^No, that's a real genre. Then again I suppose some outsiders think prog is a made up genre. I remember my cousin's husband(then boyfriend) asking if there really is such a thing with regards to prog.Her response was "I think so." I was standing right there and couldn't believe it. No, I just made it up. All those bands you see on that list are totally made up. :P |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: January 15 2021 at 13:14
I won't mention any names, but I have a couple of close relatives who've never even heard of King Crimson.
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