Will we ever see a "re-produced" Yes Union?
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Topic: Will we ever see a "re-produced" Yes Union?
Posted By: judahbenkenobi
Subject: Will we ever see a "re-produced" Yes Union?
Date Posted: October 11 2020 at 21:34
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I am a relatively new Yes fan, yet it is obvious to me that Yes's 1991 album Union is hated by critics, fans, and Yes alumni alike. I find it hard to understand why. Perhaps because I was a teenager in the 90's, so I have a soft spot for the music of that decade (although my favorite bands, albums, and songs are mostly from the 70's). What I like about Union is the energy and the heavy sound present in some of the songs, especially the YesWest songs. The common thread I see in all of the aversion towards Union is the production of the album. The idea of having all those musicians, many of whom didn't get along very well at the time, and hadn't done it for a few years was of course, the first mistake. But the producers, mainly Jon Anderson and especially Jonathan Elias are generally blamed for the outrageous decision of bringing so many session and additional musicians to record, re-record and overdub several parts that resulted in that, as Wakeman said it once, the original Yes musicians' parts were unrecognizable even to them. My question is: is it socially (for lack of a better way of explaning the complex relationships between the Yes Union lineup), technically, legally, artistically, and financially plausible that there will ever be a re-release of Union? Perhaps a Steven Wilson remix, who has worked on some of the classic Yes albums. Or someone else who would dig into the original tapes and have the courage and the technical ability to find true beauty in the work of only those eight musicians (nine if you include Tony Levin's work in the ABWH songs). Is it possible that will ever happen? EDIT: By the way, this is my first post, so if I'm placing this thread on the wrong place, please forgive me
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Replies:
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: October 11 2020 at 22:16
  Question around here, on a personal note i like the album. The lineup is a stellar example of high calibration quality musicianship imho ------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake." Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 11 2020 at 22:23
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Removing musicians or portions of what a musician did is not/should not happen on an album, that would change the whole aspect of final version. I realize you don't care for the end product, but I don't think you can change what you perceive as bad ju-ju by the band. Steven is an excellent audio engineer but he is not going to alter the original version much if at all. He'll push low end to give the music more body if it is a thin recording like he did on Aqualung. -------------   
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: October 11 2020 at 22:57
Welcome to PA! Nothing to forgive, you did great!  ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
judahbenkenobi wrote:Posted By: judahbenkenobi
Date Posted: October 11 2020 at 23:04
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I do realize it would be a completely different thing. I compare it with what Phil Spector did with The Beatles' Let It Be album: overdubs, re-recordings, and orchestration . The end result was not to everyone's liking, especially to Paul McCartney. Which is why he took to himself the work of stripping off all the extra embellishments. What came out, Let It Be... Naked was, to some of us, better than the original release. Of course, not everyone liked it, but it gave us a different thing, another excuse to spend some hard-earned cash on a "new" album from the Fab Four. I guess I would do the same for a Yes "Union...Naked" or "Re:Union" or something like that. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 09:22
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I don't listen to the Beatles, so no clue what you describe. I doubt re-doing Union by Yes is on anybody's list right now or ever. And yes your first post is fine, although you have 436 points so this is your first thread you started right? Either way seems fine to me! Cheers -------------
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 10:40
Doubtful. Wilson would have to have access to all the masters, as you already know. Then there's the label riff raff. Union may be a Frankenstein album, but the good songs are quite good. For "real" Wakeman action, and better music (that sounds a bit less "YesWest"), I turn to the superior Keys to Ascension material. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 11:05
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Nope. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Argo2112
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 11:06
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I would actually like to here it remixed with the Wakemen parts restored. I like several songs on Union so I think there is potential there. For the life of me I will never understand why an album with Anderson, Squire, Howe, Wakeman, Bruford, White, Kaye, Rabin & Tony Levin would have a single note played by another musician. If you have those nine guys, you should not need anyone else on the album.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 11:09
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I don't see why another album mix is out of the question. Anything is possible with musicians that own the publishing of the album.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 11:42
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I don't hate the album, but what you've said sounds like a good idea. Can't see it happening though. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 12:26
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The production on Union is pristine-- the studio sound, mix, all excellent. I think it was more the sense of piecemeal that was evident in the recording sessions that made Union a flop with fans. But it sounds great and there are several very fine compositions. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 12:53
Yes, I said something similar in my review of the album, although less effusive. The main criticism of the album is the over production, so I don’t see how remixing it would necessarily work. Wilson remixes albums to make the production sound better. There was a fine album inside Union, and David is absolutely spot on that it is the piecemeal way it was put together that was its downfall, especially disappointing after the massive success of ABWH. As much as I love Anderson, he has to take the lions share of the blame for that with his obsession for performing as Yes. Bruford didn’t want it. At the time, neither did Howe, and his relationship with Jon never recovered after this album (it was poor after Tormato, but Union absolutely ruined it). Having a massive gaggle of musicians works in a live setting, as the resultant tour proved, although that was, and should remain, a one-off. In studio terms, it is a disaster. The old saying? “too many cooks spoil the broth”. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 13:02
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The music is the music, but someone like Wilson can cure a multitude of sins. For everything that was left out that fans regret not hearing, there is a lot more than can be pruned away while the previously excised material is added back. This is not always a cure, but it sometimes works. And a subtle difference in sound levels makes a big difference to the listening experience. So, give it a try is what I say.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 13:48
Maybe I'm a curmudgeon in my old age, but there are 21 Yes studio albums and out of those only 2 have a lower rating than Union (2.5)...so maybe the question should be why would anyone want to redo it? ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 14:13
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Why? Because they can. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 14:15
And they just might get that rating up to a 3.  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 15:04
I guess I must be a curmudgeon too. I think 2/3 of the album is filler. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 15:54
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The odd thing about Union is that the people who like it really love it. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 16:15
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I wish Wilson would turn his attention to Going for The One first before going anywhere near Union. |
Posted By: judahbenkenobi
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 16:34
I guess I'm one of those 
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 16:51
| All you Wilson fans are a strange bunch. I said this before, but I'll repeat it...Steven could record an album of farts and y'all would hail it as a masterpiece. You think everything he touches turns to gold. Not me. Some things should be left alone. I for one don't think Union should be remixed or remastered. It sounds great the way it is. I prefer the original mixes of the Genesis catolouge to the remastered versions. The original mix of Red sounds awesome. Wilson didn't improve it, only altered it. And the original mix of Thick as a Brick sounds perfect to my ears. The only reason for most remastered or anniversary releases are greed. How many versions of the first KC does anyone need or want? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 17:44
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Well, you're taking a lot out of context and, like many do, assuming a lot. I'm no fan of Wilson's music but I know I good remixer when I hear one. His work with Aqualung was phenomenal. He made the coldest sounding recordings sound warm and full with session tapes that were trashed. A great amount of noise reduction and digital restoration needed and he was able to still keep 97 percent of top end. So, there's more to Wilson's skills that people don't realize. And he was only used as an example. There's many others. The point was that remixing can do a lot more than some subtle variation on the original album mix. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 17:53
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 18:00
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I can't say that a lot sound worse but some certainly do. Just as some original mixes sound bad. But if you like the original mixes, then why did you get the remixes? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 18:01
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Yea your, @Grumpyprogfan, looking at it wrong. We are not discussing SW albums, like them or not.....But he is a very talented engineer. I put him right up there with Bernie Grundman, Doug Sax, Kevin Gray and others, Bob Ludwig is still THE GOAT! SW is getting really close to even the guys at Sterling Sound. His remix of JTull albums is pretty special, I have original versions and the remixes are magnificent. Aqualung suffered from bad original production and errors and he was able to bring that recording back to life. In the Court was a classic example of a tape deck that was misaligned and he was able to use digital tech to fix the issues, in this case I do like digital, but comparing the two his version wins hands down. His 5.1 mixes are regarded as some of the best work in the industry.....Just go to Discogs and Hoffman forums, sure there are some people that don't like them but when 90%+ reviews are more than positive...... And you mention the Genesis remixes, those were done by Nick Davis in 2007 I think. I for sure prefer those than the terribly veiled original copies I have on SEBtP, Foxtrot and Cryme. ATOtT suffered from too much compression on the remix, its decent but I like my original version better or at least as much. -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 18:04
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What he said. ItCotCk was phenomenal too. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: judahbenkenobi
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 18:09
I did mention Steven Wilson only as an example. Actually I haven't heard a single one of his remixes. And I too like Union as it is, but I'm open to the possibility that a rework could improve it, or at least give me an interesting variation of it. Perhaps in this case greed would be the reason not to do it, because how many people would spend their money on something that they didn't like in the first place? Given that so many don't like it, that venture might not sound profitable enough for the band. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 18:17
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Never say never. Ego is always a motivator. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 18:29
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I think GrumpyPF jumped ship. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 18:32
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 18:37
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Well,you seem to be cursed. No wonder why you're grumpy. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 18:49
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The Wilson remixes l have that are better than the originals are Marillion Brave, CTTE, and all the other Tull remixes and I'm happy with all of them. Including Aqualung and ItCotCK. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 19:28
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Union is a pretty solid album from start to finish. Some tracks are better than others of course. It is bashed mostly because of the way it was put together and some people don't like how side musicians were sneaked in to play on certain tracks. The music itself is vintage Yes but mostly shorter songs. The production is actually better than Talk even though I probably prefer talk by a little bit over all. I think it's time this album is re-evaluated and not treated a piece of crap like most prog fans(and Yes fans) seem to do(same thing with Big Generator).
Anyway, I personally don't think Steven Wilson would ever bother with remixing this album. Should it be remixed? At this point it probably wouldn't make a lot of sense. Even if it was it's not like a lot of people who never heard it before would suddenly rush out and buy it.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 19:31
Probably because you buy CDs..... You need to tell us which version you have, like I said I thought A Trick was not an improvement by Nick.-------------
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 19:52
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Well, Yes won't be playing in the round like the one time I saw all 20 (or however many there was) band members together. The rotating stage will give all those old guys vertigo. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Adaon
Date Posted: October 12 2020 at 20:30
| Union's absurd backstory will always preclude it from getting much appreciation. Considering how terribly unpopular it is amongst fans, and how practically everyone involved in its making seems look back on it with disgust, I have a hard time imagining that anyone would view a remix as a worthwhile project. That being said, count me among the people who like it. There are plenty of good songs on that album. |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: October 13 2020 at 06:37
I would buy an album of farts. Someone needs to expand on the path Scott Walker did on Corps De Blah. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 16 2020 at 13:13
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91451" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91451 ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: October 16 2020 at 13:26
That was classic. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 16 2020 at 14:18
| I wish it would happen. There's actually some songs that I do love on the album. Though to be honest, I don't expect they could actually be improved so much, it's only that I would like to know that it's actually the members of Yes who are playing the songs and not a bunch of session musicians. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 16 2020 at 14:19
| I understand that even the original ABWH album had a bit of those problems, with good bits actually played by other guys, so while we are at it, it might be nice to have those ones restored too (if Rick and Steve ever played those parts). |
Posted By: judahbenkenobi
Date Posted: October 16 2020 at 19:08
| ^ Not a bad idea, actually. |