In my opinion though they were definitely influenced by Rush especially Mike Portnoy(although he's no longer in DT). I admit there is a thin line between being inspired by someone and being influenced by them but Rush were heavy enough to make it plausible they were both. 

Enchant is prog metal?  Not to me they weren't. Tiles would be a better example although they weren't really prog metal either.

Tiles, how could I forget about them. 

Enchant are more heavy prog than progressive metal. No need to laugh at me. I've seen them classified as progressive metal some places. 

They were not the originators of metal, like I would not put them next to Black Sabbath, but they had an influence on progressive metal. By that I mean they influenced bands and allowed them to record music like Yes or Genesis or Pink Floyd but with a much harder attitude, essentially Rush music since they themselves were influenced by Yes for example.

In very fine well defined buckets, to me Black Sabbath influenced the creation of hard heavy metal like say Iron Maiden, Judas Priest. Rush helped bands like Tool, DT, Riverside create much harder rock, maybe call it metal-lite with prog attributes. I try not to mix those two buckets......And we all know Rush were influenced by Zeppelin, Yardbirds, Cream but also listened to Yes, Genesis and put those two together and you have the start of prog-metal and in early days, Rush.

I wasn't laughing at you. I was laughing at the statement. I just thought it was funny to lump them in with prog metal. Yeah, I've seen them put in prog metal sometimes too but I've seen Porcupine Tree in with prog metal also.

PT had metal influences in the 2000s. 

So did Arena. I think that's when bands started to be able to be prog with metal influences but not prog metal per se. I hope that makes sense. There were some examples before that though like Mastermind and Par Lindh Project.

This will surprise some, not all.

http://www.rushweb.net/hail-rush-these-5-bands-cite-rush-as-a-major-musical-influence/#:~:text=Hail%20Rush%21%20These%205%20Bands%20Cite%20Rush%20As,4%20Dream%20Theater.%205%20Rage%20Against%20the%20Machine." rel="nofollow - http://www.rushweb.net/hail-rush-these-5-bands-cite-rush-as-a-major-musical-influence/#:~:text=Hail%20Rush%21%20These%205%20Bands%20Cite%20Rush%20As,4%20Dream%20Theater.%205%20Rage%20Against%20the%20Machine.

I hate their big hit "Silent Lucidity." That's the song responsible for the Floyd comparison. Nothing else in their catalog sounds like that.

Interesting because that's the song that got me into Queensryche. I bought that album(cd) "Empire" just because of that song. I still think it's one of the best songs of the 90's. Guilty pleasure? Maybe but I don't care. We like what we like right? It always did remind me a bit of PF so maybe that's part of it. But regardless I always thought it was a very powerful song.

 

I don't know "Silent Lucidity", but Operation: Mindcrime reminds me of The Wall.

 

 

Empire isn't the slightest bit prog-metal. I love most of it, but it's straight-up heavy metal with symphonic leanings on a couple songs. "Silent Lucidity" is a glossy number that expanded their audience, along with the syrup of "Jet City Woman," but that's about it. There's much better material on that album, like the title track, "Best I Can," "Resistance" and the overlooked "One and Only."

If you guys like it, that's cool. FM radio played that and "Jet City Woman" non-stop. More power to the band. The concerts were amazing. Till them, I hadn't seen a band put on a show as good as Rush.

 

Ok, I just listened to "Silent Lucidity", and yes, it was almost like I was listening to Pink Floyd.

 

 

Except for the "one string guitar solo," right? 

 

There were places where I was expecting to hear "I have become... comfortably numb".

 

 

Wow, you guys better not listen to "from the greenhouse" by Crack the Sky then(especially the title track). ;)

I hear Rush influences in Queensryche Rage for Order and Operation:Mindcrime. 

Fates Warning in Parallels and Inside Out. 

I used to hear that on the radio, too. Man, that was a LONG time ago! 

Not sure what you mean. I was really into them before Geoff ruined them. I saw them in concert several times. Great shows. Favorite album with Geoff is The Warning.

Their recent albums with current vocalist Todd La Torre are their best efforts since Empire. Check them out.

"NM 156" from The Warning. Enjoy.

But you didn't know of it because you didn't hear it on the radio. 

Awesome band. Awesome.

verslibre wrote: Caress of Steel and 2112 are early totems on the highway to progressive metal. Rush has influenced and inspired many musicians and bands. In a late 1980s issue of Guitar for the Practicing Musician, in the introduction to an interview with Geddy, Rush was cited as "father to bands such as Queensryche and Dream Theater." Dream Theater? Absolutely. All you have to do is play their debut When Dream and Day Unite and it's apparent. Rush was one of the bands those guys clearly worshipped, along with Iron Maiden, Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple. At the time, I didn't agree with the Queensrÿche part, and I still don't. They liked Rush, no doubt, but their early sound is firmly of the Iron Maiden template. I do hear some Rush in Rage for Order, where they spread their wings a bit. Tiles was brought up. They wanted to be "Rush Part Deux," but that's a lot harder to actually do than put on paper. Mastermind's debut Volume One — minus the vocals, IMO, was a more successful attempt to emulate Rush and ELP...simultaneously! Derivative as hell, but I love it. This will surprise some, not all. http://www.rushweb.net/hail-rush-these-5-bands-cite-rush-as-a-major-musical-influence/#:~:text=Hail%20Rush%21%20These%205%20Bands%20Cite%20Rush%20As,4%20Dream%20Theater.%205%20Rage%20Against%20the%20Machine." rel="nofollow - http://www.rushweb.net/hail-rush-these-5-bands-cite-rush-as-a-major-musical-influence/#:~:text=Hail%20Rush%21%20These%205%20Bands%20Cite%20Rush%20As,4%20Dream%20Theater.%205%20Rage%20Against%20the%20Machine.

Pretty much this.

If you had read my post thoroughly, you'd know why.

I don't care if Rush were an influence to prog metal or not, although clearly they were and still are and probably will be for eternity. People will look at Zeppelin, Sabbath to understand the heaviness and metalness of music. People will look at Yes, Genesis for the symphonic, melodic intricate compositions.........

But people will look at Rush as one of the earliest bands to meld those two styles together in the early 70s and then the newer bands (DT, FW) in the 90s used the same formula and future bands that want to record that style will subsequently look at Rush for influence and also dig into what inspired them.

At some point people will forget about Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, and will only remember Rush.....And then at some point people will forget about Rush and only remember DT as their influence to get into prog-metal. So I think it is important to lay down the foundation of where this stuff kinda came from, so I don't know how you can quantify "Just not as much as they're given credit for"......I suspect if you were to poll actual prog-metal bands from the 90s-00s and ask them, it would be over 50% mention Rush.

The answer to your OP question is Yes.......Putting some number on the credit due is probably impossible.

 

 

Maybe not in the mainstream (that is arguable today...) but you are on a prog website not Spotify.......There are people who don't know who the Beatles are today. I don't want people to forget about them, just on this site as they have nothing to do with progressive rock music.

Where r u all in this picture?? This is what the Beatles represent.....

People who don't know the Beatles? Maybe really young people who only listen to pop or rap music. I can pretty much guarantee there's no one who knows about Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Queen, u2, the Rolling Stones or any other band who hasn't at least heard of the Beatles.

Also, I'm well aware of your disdain for the Beatles but to say they have nothing to do with progressive rock music is a bit of a stretch. It could even be argued that if there were no Beatles there would be no prog. I won't say Sgt. Pepper's is an early prog album(although some might)but it certainly led to prog. If it wasn't for Fripp hearing a "day in the life" on his way home one evening who knows if KC would have even formed and officially started prog as we know it. So yeah, personal opinions aside, the Beatles are very important in the history and development of prog whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

Particularly since The Beatles can release another remastered album tomorrow and sell a million copies -- 50 years after they broke up. Rush in 50 years? I don't think they can duplicate the generation-to-generation success and universal appeal of The Beatles. On a lesser scale, you could say the same thing about Zeppelin, Sabbath, or even Pink Floyd, for that matter.

King Crimson, Sabbath and Zeppelin were influences as well, but you don't hear much of them in prog metal as we know it, Dream Theater and Rush have had the largest influence on prog metal, no question.

That's the problem, people lump them into being the creators of all genres of music......BTW old people die, then really young people take over , so you answered my statement, some people don't know who the Beatles are. 

They are important to music in general, but very little importance to progressive music.....This is one where they get too much (made up) credit for progressive music. People have disdain for a lot of bands, but when someone has disdain for the Beatles its deemed sacrilegious ....seems hypocritical to me.

ANY band that was created in the mid to late 60's listened to the Beatles, saw the massive popularity they achieved and money/fame/carte blanche they commanded, all given to them by the fans.

The belief that if the Beatles did not exist music would be different is absurd...different how?? They were a massive driver and reason for so many people getting into music, wanting to record and write songs.....but you did not see these people become Beatles copy cats (only The Knack ), they created their own music.....KC sounds NOTHING like anything the Beatles wrote. 

It was a musical movement during that time, just watch Woodstock, that's what was truly going on with music during that time, the Beatles were in their own crazy bubble gum girly pop music world....Their music was nowhere near as serious as what happened at Woodstock.

I am good at bringing up stuff people don't want/are afraid to discuss........It's my hispanic hot blooded nature. And I am soooo very good with it!!  

The difference is its the same people buying the million copies, 70yr old coggers who have 20 versions of each album......they claim they have 2,000 albums, but in fact 1,000 of those albums are Beatles records.

Sure.....but bro, you hi-jacked your own thread by mentioning the Fab Four.......It's your fault!

Yes, I don't understand this sudden dislike of Rush from some people. When I joined, it was almost as though people loved them too much.

I am not going to argue about this. Rush were an influence on prog metal. Whether they were influenced themselves or had minimum/maximum influence is so debatable it's irrelevant in my mind, though if you want to debate about that, carry on.

So then clearly you do not like them either.....welcome to the club!! I own 3 albums, Sgt Pepper, the Blue and Red albums. Bought by my wife because she thought we could sell them for $1,000's of dollars, until I explained to her there are millions of these records everywhere, they worth $2-3 each. 

The site is full of them.....it seems

It is a time-honored tradition here at PA. 

Back on topic, Tool acknowledges King Crimson as their major influence (so much so they are planning on touring together whenever this damn pandemic is over). So you follow the historical thread of those prog metal bands who were influenced by Tool, like Mastodon, Karnivool, Tesseract, etc. you realize the impact King Crimson had. Throw in Iron Maiden and Metallica as well for many of the newer bands.

Sure thing, Jose. But since my daughter is in college, visiting the campus I can tell you that Floyd and the Beatles are being listened to far more than Rush. Hell, even their paraphernalia like t-shirts and such are still being worn and purchased. Rush? Not so much. Fine band, but not on par. 

You are correct, there are many reasons why there is this change about Rush........It means nothing to me because the discography and accomplishments are more than enough. Just like those that slam Steven Wilson on this site or Marillion. 

I stated my opinion on this topic, so I agree others can carry on....

Rush is an underground band and following......as Steve stated "not main stream". I have yet to see a young person wearing Beatles shirt, but I see gobs of them wearing Pink Floyd, Zepp and AC/DC shirts.

No, I was referring to a specific kind of young person. There are plenty of younger people who like rock and even prog. I would bet that at least 90 percent of those who are into pop music and don't listen to rock have at least heard of the Beatles even rap fans. I won't say all because there are some people who live under a rock when it comes to music. 

Some reading material for you...  

Not true, Paul. The Beatles are known Across the Universe. Literally Here, There and Everywhere. Both Within You and Without You. Because, In The End, Even Your Mother Should Know.

It's the name of his 1975 album with Wings. Yes, 22 year old here, I know about McCartney.

Yeah, as someone who recently graduated college, I can confirm TDE's point. In fact, just yesterday, I recorded some of their music with a group of young people. I was in a Pops Orchestra in college, and many of the members/alumni came together to form this virtual orchestra called the Philanthropic Philharmonic. We accept donations for our music videos (everyone records at home to a MIDI/click and they footage/audio is put together) and put them towards charitable causes. Our third recording is of Come Together (I recorded melodica, and will be doing vocals next), so I put on my THE BEATLES T-SHIRT and laid down the track. Everyone involved is somewhere between 20 and 25, and the tune got the most votes in a poll among the members that included mostly contemporary pop. So yeah, they're still in the zeitgeist.

As for Rush, I certainly didn't see many of their t-shirts on campus compared to Beatles and PF. However, any time I brought up that I listen/play/write prog to anyone, of any age, Rush is always an example band I am asked about. So I wouldn't quite call them "underground." Certainly less well known than the aforementioned bands. But Underground is a stretch.

dougmcauliffe wrote: Honestly reading through this it just sounds like the 2-3 people who are convinced Rush had little to no influence on Prog metal just don't like Rush very much so they're trying to subtly diminish and undercut their achievements and influence. I think Logan has hit the nail on the head, you can see countless interviews with members of Dream Theater where they say that they hold Rush as their number on influence, even the video Mike Portnoy posted less than 24 hours ago where he is going through his record collection he says this very thing. Most popular prog metal bands are influenced by Dream Theater, who are, according to them, influenced by.... (fill in the blank)

Completely wrong.   Rush was my favorite band for years, I bought Hemispheres when it came out---  I was eleven.   The fact that they were Dream Theater's #1 influence has nothing to do with Rush's minimal influence on progressive ~ or for that matter, heavy ~ metal.   Rush were never metal, had nothing to do with it, and it assumes progmetal emerged form prog rock, which presumes a lot and misses much.  

Further, it diminishes the hardrock and metal bands that were gradually becoming more complex and musical, and who in turn invented and passed down the art of metal, not the art of rock.   Two very different forms.   To discredit the Scorpions, Priest, Sabbath, Maiden, heck even Yngwie Malmsteen, those who existentially created the proto-progmetal form, is a crime and a true misreading of musical history.

^ I was around when Rush were at there height.  I was around when metal was at its height.  And I was around when progmetal was at its height.   Yes Rush had a minor influence on one NWOBHM band I'm aware of: Kevin Heybourne's Angel Witch.   Rush don't sound like metal "these days" because they never were, then or now. 

Dream Theater?   Dream Theater was a latecomer to the progmetal movement, their debut was released in 1989.   Don't tell me about Dream Theater.   You know who Voivod's main influences were?:  Béla Bartók, Stravinsky, Shostakovitch, Judas Priest, all well before they cite Rush.

That a few scruffy headbangers who would go on to invent progressive metal may have dug Rush, and that therefore Rush were a direct creative influence on prog metal, is an assumption based on notions, recollections, quotes and projections.   Credit where it's due, please.

The question is not if Rush created progressive metal or invent it. The answer would be "no". 

^ Fair enough but the question ignores the far greater impact of other bands, does it not?

I don't think so. 

I can make a long list of bands that I think influenced bands, I'm sure I would get some frowned faces 

SteveG wrote: I hate to say it but even PA's definition of prog metal holds that KC and Rush are the two major influences on prog metal. This fantasy runs deep.

And yet Rush are in many ways the cornerstone Heavyprog band, a form with roots in blues, as clear on their first three records and Zeppelin influence.  

don't know if that's a compliment or an insult.