Golden Brown by The Stranglers : Progressive?
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Topic: Golden Brown by The Stranglers : Progressive?
Posted By: softandwet
Subject: Golden Brown by The Stranglers : Progressive?
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 12:31
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This Stranglers song hit me earlier today on the radio : harpsichord, weird time signature, weird key signature, experimentation with multiplication of the lead singer voice, etc THIS IS PROG! I shouted. But then I look up the band on Wikipedia, and so progarchives, and discovered that it was, unfortunately, not a prog band at all. I was truly disappointed to understand that this song was a kind of a UFO in their discog. But how would you have react in this case? Would you have made the link between progressive music and this song, or would you have just ignored it? ------------- So don’t evade the surgeon’s blade Cos the answer could be in your mind Maybe one cut and we’ll find We’re just a wavelength behind But we are entwined And I know what you need |
Replies:
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 13:16
Nope. The Stranglers "Golden Brown" is about as appealing to me as Gordon Brown. 
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Posted By: Gentle and Giant
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 14:36
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Great song, never prog though and never thought it as such. ------------- Oh, for the wings of any bird, other than a battery hen |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 17:15
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The Stranglers were always an anachronism amongst bands that were close to the punk scene. They were one of the few bands with a keyboard player - and a good one at that - and they went far beyond the punk norm in terms of experimentation. I felt they exploited the punk scene rather than were ever truly part of it. And they do have undoubted prog influences, even though they were never a prog band. Big Country also came out of the punk scene (the Skids) but made music with strong prog influences whilst never actually being prog. They're one of my favourite bands. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 20:35
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Nope. It's not prog rock but it's cool nonetheless. ------------- 
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 22:24
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Some of the Stranglers songs were brilliant imho but I wouldn't call that track prog, but this lp is surely out there and parts are proggier than many bands on PA. Weird and bizarre to say the least....and it's one of my favorite strange lp's. 2 tracks..... ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 13 2020 at 23:15
| Listening to the song now on youtube. Nope not prog. If it is then Belle and Sebastian would have to be prog too. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 00:36
| Very clearly is prog but not everything they did was. Stuff like 5 Minutes and No More Heroes still fall under New Wave rather than prog. 'The British Doors' was apparently what someone once called them. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 01:14
| Golden Brown is not UFO track in Stranglers Discography, it fits really well into La Folie-album where it is, although I think it´s greatest song in that album. Stranglers were the ones in seventies some journalists blamed not to be punk, because some members were too old and also many of them were great musicians. I would call them post-punk from the beginning but everybody can call them whatever they like. Not my most fav post-punk band, but like them anyway quite much! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 01:45
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It's proggy, but no, not really. It is what it is, an excellent song which happens to have a harpsichord in it, and happens to be in 13/8 time. The recurring "are the Stranglers prog rock?" debate will now ensue (again) Golden Brown is one of the greatest hit singles ever written by any band, of any genre IMO. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 01:46
| Interestingly there was something about this in the latest edition of Prog where they interviewed Rick Wakeman and JJ Burnel. From memory 2 of them went to the pub and left Dave Greenfield and Jet Black to write something and when they came back they'd come up with a sort of "prog" suite and the only bit they liked became "Golden Brown". Sorry typing this from memory as I can't find my copy of Prog at the moment. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 02:02
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Jean and I consider The Stranglers to be prog, simply because they often use real polyphony which is rare in prog even (Gentle Giant are a band that often use it). Any band that uses this highly advanced compositional technique should be considered as prog. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 06:21
Agreed.
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Hrychu wrote:Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 06:34
You've mentioned this before and I think you said it was in a track on Black And White. Could you remind me which track(s) as my thicky musician mind isn't sure what you mean by polyphony?
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Posted By: Greenmist
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 07:12
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No, wouldent consider it prog rock at all, for a start its too repetitive. No complex structures nothing. Best thing about that song was when someone made a parody of it and called it Gordon Brown "Treasurey waste, data misplaced, get out of town, James Gordon Brown"
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 07:16
I had no idea there was a Gordon Brown parody version when I mentioned Gordon Brown earlier, although the name of the song is so similar it almost begs for a parody version to be made.
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Posted By: Muskrat
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 08:50
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Prog or not ? Impossible question if you don't definite this term. So, what is progressive rock ? I'm afraid that each of us have his own idea. Anyway, there's no copyright on it. There was a time when I thought that only Yes played prog.
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Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 09:10
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There are songs that immediately shout "I'm prog" at the listener and there are songs that shout "I'm not prog". Golden Brown obviously doesn't fall in any of these categories (at which it is not alone by any means). If a genuine and generally accepted prog band had done it, nobody would complain it's not prog. However making a prog case for this song in an isolated manner is rather an uphill battle. It shows that it's a different discussion whether a song is prog or whether a band is prog. There is no objective truth on these matters in any case (ultimately such categories are meaningless, but discussing something meaningless is what we do all the time anyway), but the discussion is a different one. BTW I belong to the big group of people who love this song. Whether it's prog or not doesn't matter much though.
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Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 10:09
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They’re a pretty unique band in general. Not even sure the term “prog” would do them justice. I’d just call it “interesting, ambitious music”. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Droxford
Date Posted: August 14 2020 at 14:11
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I rate The Stranglers very highly. Though they appeared with the Punk/New Wave of 1976/1977 , they created their own niche as it were. The Stranglers' fabulous 'Black and White' album (1978) is sadly very overlooked. Their keyboardist, Dave Greenfield , was often counted as being influenced by Ray Manzerk, but claimed to be more influenced by Jon Lord. And I can see the connection , particularly with Deep Purple's 'Burn' album. But wouldn't count them as prog. Doesn't mean that they didn't ever display some Prog influence now and then.
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Posted By: Greenmist
Date Posted: August 15 2020 at 03:30
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I do agree that trying to give a universally accepted answer to the question "what makes a rock song a prog rock song?" is very hard to answer, especially by text on a message board where you cant play audio samples to express your point. Its one of those situations where the answer is, "you know it when you hear it".
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Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: August 17 2020 at 14:28
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The Stranglers occupy that weird territory (much like Ultravox or XTC) where all the progressive intentions in the world won't sway the obdurate heart. Great band though!!! ------------- The Prog Corner |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: August 17 2020 at 15:05
-------------  
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Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: August 18 2020 at 00:01
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Hugh Cornwall and Richard Thompson (for those who don't know, which should be no-one!.... a founding member of Fairport Convention) were school buddies, and together in 1964 they formed their first band....see link below https://louderthanwar.com/great-photo-of-hugh-cornwell-in-his-school-band-with-richard-thompson/" rel="nofollow - https://louderthanwar.com/great-photo-of-hugh-cornwell-in-his-school-band-with-richard-thompson/ A very odd combo! Hugh caught up with Richard some 55 years later to guest at Thompson's 70th birthday celebrations at the Royal Albert Hall in October last year....see below  |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: August 18 2020 at 01:21
My understanding of polyphony is different melodies, played simultaneously and harmonizing in a piece of music. If that's the case, I would have thought it's quite common. BaldFriede refers to 'real polyphony' Not sure if that's something different.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: August 27 2020 at 08:06
Was just about to post that second song you linked here. I've been investigating The Stranglers over the last few months. "Hallow to Our Men" definitely out-progs "Golden Brown". Some tracks from The Raven do too now that I think of it... Anyway, good band! ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 27 2020 at 09:03
Two or more independent melodic lines played simultaneously and harmonising with each other (often employing consonance and dissonance), and in what's called true polyphony, each independent melody has its own rhythm to my understanding, which gives each melody more of a unique quality, and often different metres play with each other adding contrast in the interplay of the lines. Really enjoying those The Stranglers clips above, by the way. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: August 28 2020 at 02:07
Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, but all the definitions I've seen, there's no mention of metre, but whatever The Stranglers clearly have progressive elements in their music. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: August 28 2020 at 02:17
So an example of that would be the middle section of Yes' Perpetual Change where there is a fast "riff" in 7/7 beats and a repeated organ bit in 6/8 beats, so both playing different tunes but matching up as they're both on 14 beats (which I didn't notice for quite a while)?
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Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: August 28 2020 at 06:41
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The Stranglers punk is to prog as The Doors' psychedelic jazz rock is to prog. (It's that keyboard thing). But less often. Still if you really want a punk prog Stranglers challenge how about La Folie? The bass player sings this and he is to vocals about as well as Steve Howe is...
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Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 28 2020 at 12:19
That's a better example for "polyrhythm." Though I suppose that also works as an example of polyphony as well. Really classic examples of true polyphony would be evident on many of Gentle Giant's works. They often have so many layered parts played by each tonal instrument. Take a tune like Cogs in Cogs or The Boys in the Band, for instance. Or Knots, for a vocal example.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 28 2020 at 14:27
Thanks for writing that, I was thinking about what to say. I'm not that familiar with the Yes composition, nor have I studied much music theory, but had a listen and heard "it". I think it also works as polyphony, even if the melodic lines don't seem strong (kind of a mess to my ears) on their own or maybe work well in coordination from a formal music standpoint. It was cool to listen to and hear that. I don't know what true polyphony means in the sense that it was being used. It is supposed to be very hard to pull off well (formal composition), especially the more complex forms of polyphony. |