Marillion: why?
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Topic: Marillion: why?
Posted By: Orfeo
Subject: Marillion: why?
Date Posted: July 21 2004 at 07:15
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Hi, I'm new in the forum and I'm from Italy (so don't mind about my english ok? I would like |
Replies:
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: July 21 2004 at 16:25
I agree, marillion is NOT prog, I've just listened to it and there is nothing special to it except being pour sounding 80' sh*te!~ ------------- Epic. |
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: July 22 2004 at 00:08
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Orfeo and JrKASperov: Of course, I fully support your right to your opinions about Marillion. If you don't like them, you don't like them, and no amount of explanation - or even proving your specific "arguments" "wrong" - is going to make |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 22 2004 at 03:07
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I on the other hand consider "Script" to be one of the finest prog albums I have ever heard. OK, label it "neo-prog" if you must, because there are certainly some prog elements missing - but the progressive song writing more than makes up for it, I |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: July 22 2004 at 05:06
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[QUOTE=Orfeo] Hi, I'm new in the forum and I'm from Italy (so don't mind about my english ok?
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 22 2004 at 08:36
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Nice, persuasive, technically eloquent and well thought-out response there, Joren.
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Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: July 22 2004 at 10:44
I've heard that Misplaced Childhood is one of their best albums (it is s |
Certif1ed wrote:Posted By: Orfeo
Date Posted: July 22 2004 at 12:14
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First, thank you all for your posts. To maani: I will certainly listen |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: July 22 2004 at 15:05
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When i first came across Marillion, it was not that long after Genesis had released "Abacab". I immediately took to Marillion because they came along at a time when one of my favourite bands (i.e. Genesis) were pressing the self destruct button |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 23 2004 at 04:29
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[QUOTE=Orfeo] In this song, after a (very nice indeed, with strong Hammill influence) 30sec intro, starts the piano with "too late to say I love you etc.". There are 4bars Cm-G-Cm-G: very simple, not very original (specially the pia |
Posted By: Orfeo
Date Posted: July 23 2004 at 07:42
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maani, many thanks for your time. The things you say are all true, but don't change my impression. Because, as I said, all that surrounds THE POINT is good (if not excellent) |
Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 23 2004 at 10:02
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If I want to see a Genesis tribute band I'll go and see The Musical Box. At least they're up front about their mimicry. No, no, wait, just kidding Fishfreaks. My view is, and I've said this before I think, that Marillion (and a lot of their mid 80s neoprog ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: July 23 2004 at 12:56
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I wouldn't go as far as emdiar (although a prog re-enactment is a really funny mental image!) but I'd always found Marillion to be rather bland and soulless. This is something I can say about a number of prog bands, even several who have no lack of |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 23 2004 at 16:29
I don't see that point |
Posted By: The Prognaut
Date Posted: July 23 2004 at 23:22
You don't wanna do that my friend... believe me
P.S. Maybe you'd l |
Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 24 2004 at 05:18
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[QUOTE=Certif1ed]
emdiar: OK, you don't like Marillion either, but your criticism is completely unfair, unfounded and, to be blunt, bollocks. I |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: July 24 2004 at 11:02
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Fish-era Marillion is great, no matter if it's not the most intricate music you could expect from a "prog" band. To Cert' : thanks for defending Marillion's music, I think their music brought some light in the world of prog music in the eightie |
Posted By: The Prognaut
Date Posted: July 24 2004 at 15:26
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[QUOTE=lucas] Fish-era Marillion is great, no matter if it's not the most intricate music you could expect from a "prog" band. To Cert' : thanks for defending Marillion's music, I think their music brought some light in the world of prog musi |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: July 25 2004 at 07:51
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I just saw "Best From Both Worlds" in a CD-store for a very low proce (Ç 7,99). Is this a good introduction to Marillion? O, wait, I think I'll download some more songs off the archives first. If THEY are not going to change my mind (together wi |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: July 25 2004 at 17:50
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[QUOTE=landberkdoten][QUOTE=lucas] Fish-era Marillion is great, no matter if it's not the most intricate music you could expect from a "prog" band. To Cert' : thanks for defending Marillion's music, I think their music brought some light in t |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: July 26 2004 at 06:22
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I just downlaoded "Hard As Love".
As progressive as U2 or Bon Jovi. I'm not kidding. I don't get it! What on earth is so great about this band? |
Posted By: Orfeo
Date Posted: July 26 2004 at 07:47
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: July 26 2004 at 12:46
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Orfeo: If a two-chord progression repeated three times doesn't do it for you, you must hate about 80% of rock, and rock'n'roll - to say nothing of blues... Peace. |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: July 26 2004 at 18:01
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As a matter of fact, those three genres you mention are quite boring, unless they do something special with it like the Peppers on OHM. Especially blues ------------- Epic. |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: July 27 2004 at 19:16
| They're fun as background music, to dance to, or to bang your head to, but you should NEVER listen to those genres of music (unless you're not familiar with prog rock or jazz or classical music... I mean... you have to start somewhere... AC/DC! |
Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: July 30 2004 at 19:26
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[QUOTE=Joren] I just downlaoded "Hard As Love".
As progressive as U2 or Bon Jovi. I'm not kidding. I don't get it! What on earth is so great about this band?
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Posted By: flippedcanvas
Date Posted: August 02 2004 at 16:31
 I can't stand MARILLION with FISH'coz of the many relations/affinities with PETER GABRIEL but with the new singer they definetely took onboard a more varied genre than prog.rock it------------- all the knots get back to the comb. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 02 2004 at 17:12
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I think a little RESPECT is due here!!! Not to me, unless you think I deserve it, but to Orfeo, who asked a reasonable, technical question, to Prog Music - and Marillion, who are, like it or not, a Prog band |
Posted By: flippedcanvas
Date Posted: August 02 2004 at 17:21
 Sorry buddy yea I know what you mean,even in terms of the quality the new MARILLION are an awful lot better than how they started off with FISH,that certain element of heavy rock ------------- all the knots get back to the comb. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 03 2004 at 03:31
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That response still does not quantify WHY you hold that opinion. This is a technical discussion in terms of chord sequences and compositional devices, considering the macro and micro elements of the music, not an opinion exchange. Maril |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: August 03 2004 at 07:10
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------------- Epic. |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: August 03 2004 at 09:44
Certif1ed: I |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: August 03 2004 at 10:36
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I think maybe what Cert is getting at is that the title of 'Collaborator', i.e. somebody who Max has decided has valued opinions in respect of album reviews / band biographies etc carries with it certain responsibilities, one of which being to keep a rein ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 03 2004 at 14:53
I do agree Certif1ed that blantantly s |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 03 2004 at 15:32
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One of my points is that this is a technical discussion, not an invitation for opinions of a general and sweeping nature. If you cannot express your opinion in a musically informed way in such a specific thread, then it is best not to, if you wa |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: August 03 2004 at 16:22
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Excuse me? I clearly remember and SEE discussing technical stuff like composition and repetition? No need for personal attacks. ADD, I'll ellaborate some, I'm not opionating just because Marillion is b |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 04 2004 at 02:57
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Well Certif1ed, I support everything that you¦ve said so far. If Marillion with Fish was a Genesis clone, then Spock¦s Beard is a Gentle Giant clone as well as Echolyn. Flower Kings are YesZappaTullGiantGenesisCrimson...etc cl |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 04 2004 at 03:01
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[QUOTE=JrKASperov] Excuse me? I clearly remember and SEE discussing technical stuff like composition and repetition? No need for personal attacks. I must have missed your " |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: August 04 2004 at 07:01
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[QUOTE=Certif1ed]I must have missed your "discussing technical stuff like composition and repetition" - you certainly do none of that in this thread, you simply attack, as you put |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 04 2004 at 07:38
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[QUOTE=JrKASperov] [QUOTE=Certif1ed]I must have missed your "discussing technical stuff like composition and repetition" - you certainly do none of that in this thread, you simp |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 04 2004 at 14:46
I'm sure Alan White would agree there! |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 04 2004 at 16:37
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I'd like to provide a quick illustration of what I mean by a technical discussion - however, there is just so much to discuss in a single piece of music, that it won't be very quick - but I will cut it down to size and attempt to make it interestin |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 07:55
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yeah, but does it kick butt?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi"> 
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 08:04
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Is that on the remit? |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 08:30
Or else I will  ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 08:32
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What does it mean when someone says a piece of music "Kicks Butt" anyway - and why is that a good thing? ... OK, I understand why Velve thinks it's a good thing...
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Posted By: flippedcanvas
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 09:23
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 09:40
PERSONALITY IS EVERYTHING !!!!  ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 10:39
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[QUOTE=flippedcanvas]
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Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 11:23
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[QUOTE=Certif1ed]No - you're making assumptions about what I think. When I say "it shows the extent...", I mean just that; I do not suggest or even imply that you cannot appreciate music for what it is. Nowhere have you discussed t ------------- Epic. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 11:31
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A whole bunch of meaningless opinions again, I see. Where is your EVIDENCE? I can see from this posting that you cannot handle technical debate because you provide no facts, only opinion again - somewhat repetitive, I think; Ho |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 13:50
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No. ADD, I've just managed to get myself to listen again to the song available on the site 'childhoods end?', for the offchance that you are right. It is pure 80' pop, they play the same irksome tune throughout the whole song. And no, this tune |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 05 2004 at 13:53
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/edit. Hmm. You've edited your post so it no longer simply says "No". My response below. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 06 2004 at 03:43
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[QUOTE=JrKASperov] No. ADD, I've just managed to get myself to listen again to the song available on the site 'childhoods end?', It's also available here - the 24-bit remastered version. I was listening to it on r |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 06 2004 at 06:40
Duran Duran ???????????? PLEEEEEEEEEEEASE  ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 06 2004 at 07:29
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So Genesis wasn't prog?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 06 2004 at 07:36
| [QUOTE=JrKASperov][QUOTE=Certif1ed]The 2nd movement of Mozart's Clarinet Concerto contains a melody that is "not hard", but that does not stop it being technically brilliant. It can take a high degree of technical expertise to write a s |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 06 2004 at 07:45
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OK, Velve, you can have Duran Duran if you want them so badly... |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 06 2004 at 08:09
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I thank you We haven¦t used irony in this town since 1983, noone understood it. Steve Martin ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: August 08 2004 at 00:42
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JrKASperov/Certif1ed: Although your debate has become rather heated, it remains within the bounds of "civility" (defined broadly... First, C |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 08 2004 at 14:32
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maani : I only repeat myself in my responses in natural response to the repetition in the challenges to my assertions. I have deliberately avoided the technical in my most recent responses, as I do recognise the validity of opinion |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 08 2004 at 17:20
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I'm somewhere in the middle- not a big fan of Marillion, but at the very least somewhat objectively appreciative of their achievements. Without making any claims about the value or emotive content of their music, I'll take a look at some of the ext |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 03:27
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[QUOTE=James Lee] Initial thoughts below (post edited for brevity - hopefully I have retained context); Several elements contributed to what a lot of people recognize as the characteristically |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 05:34
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Oh My Order them not into damnation ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 06:24
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Halt!!! Who goes there?
Sorry, Velve - I just wanted to understand the perceptions - it's really not an attempt to |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 06:38
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Well the was not aimed at you, I¦m behind you 100%, I¦m just so tired of all this crap about Marillion. They were great, when Fish was amongst them, there was drama, anger, sorrow and humor in the lyrics ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 07:16
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[QUOTE=Certif1ed] [QUOTE=James Lee]The keyboards luckily tended to stay away from the patently artificial FM tones (no Michael Bolton pianos or Depeche Mode bells) |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 08:51
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OK, I get your drift, but Elgar used the same old violin sound as Debussy, Beethoven, Mozart, Vivaldi, Albioni, Purcell...
In other words, none of the songs you've named sound "the same", they&n |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 09:50
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So here I am once more............................... I act the role in classic style Of a martyr carved with a twisted smile To bleed the lyric for this song To write the rites to right my wrongs An epitaph to a ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 10:02
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Absolutely- if you thought I was saying that Marillion was really akin to any of those bands, then I didn't make myself clear enough (as usual). I was mainly trying to prove that bands from the 80s shared many specific characteristics&nbs |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 11:55
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[QUOTE=maani] . In this regard, if you do have a "higher standard" regarding what is "prog" - and you dislike almost every other form of music (rock, rock'n'roll, blues) because they are all too "simplistic" - you must have a very limite |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 12:15
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Twelfth Night now there¦s crap for ya ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 12:34
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Or Pallas ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 09 2004 at 13:54
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Hey - I like Twelfth Night (and I've blagged Brian Devoil into giving me an exclusive interview for Progarchives...) Although I realise that most tend to fall into one camp or another regarding those two bands. Twelfth Night preda |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 10 2004 at 00:42
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Twelfth Night- now that's clearly an 80s sounding band. While I don't love the music, I'm fascinated with their combination of prog and minimalist post-punk influence. Extremely unique- good job getting the interview. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 10 2004 at 03:28
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I don't think the "Live at the Target" album (or any of the recordings prior to that) sounds 80's at all; It's somewhat Hillage/Hackett/Wishbone Ash/Ozric Tentacles ( Listen |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: August 10 2004 at 08:52
Well, I just do not like them, but then again It¦s just an opinion and we all know what they are worth  not much. ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 10 2004 at 12:44
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Even I can't argue with that!
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 10 2004 at 15:21
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[QUOTE=Certif1ed] I don't think the "Live at the Target" album (or any of the recordings prior to that) sounds 80's at all; It's somewhat Hillage/Hackett/Wishbone Ash/Ozric Tentacles ( |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 10 2004 at 17:39
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"Fact and Fiction" is a great representation - although, as I said, a snapshot with 80s production filters. I don't think the band "relinquished control", rather succumbed to contemporary techniques - after all, they were representing and kick-starting |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 11 2004 at 00:06
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I'm not denying TN's prog membership by any means- I think they definitely qualify (I'll use my recurring suffix, "much more prog than Porcupine Tree, for instance"). And if I really liked TN, I wouldn't care if they were zydeco, bluegrass, or |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 11 2004 at 02:28
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"ODW" is very interesting - there's a loose reggae feel to it that puts me in mind of Here and Now - especially the "main" keyboard sound and rhythmic style. However, as I suspected, after that the similarities come across as superficial t |
Posted By: greenback
Date Posted: August 14 2004 at 21:33
| Marillion in the Fish era opened the door to all the following existing neo prog bands! So, Marillion, why? is like asking to a metal fan: Dream Theater, why? |
Posted By: Gonghobbit
Date Posted: August 15 2004 at 21:49
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I have to admit, by general feeling is that the Yes, Genesis, Crimson classic seventies era prog is totally grand, while even the more heralded neo-prog seems often mediocre. I have just Misplaced Childhood by Marillion, apparently one of their few best ------------- 'This is a local shop, there's nothing for you here' |
Posted By: Prog_Bassist
Date Posted: September 08 2004 at 21:13
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I like Marillion because it's almost like Genesis, (after they changed to abacab) kept doing their peter gabriel era stuff in the 80s. :) I also like the hogarth era. I'm a big fan of the song "Ocean Cloud". ------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhuxaD8NzaY" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhuxaD8NzaY |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: September 16 2004 at 05:35
greenback : So true, So True  ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: October 11 2004 at 00:25
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Bravo...Couldn't have said it better myself |
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: October 14 2004 at 22:51
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I'll add my support to greenback, velvetclown (oh no, we agree on something! ) and gdub on this one.
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