90s "pop" music
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: General Music Discussions
Forum Description: Discuss and create polls about all types of music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122757
Printed Date: December 04 2024 at 14:48
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 90s "pop" music
Posted By: Logan
Subject: 90s "pop" music
Date Posted: April 17 2020 at 18:44
|
Yes pop has bad connotations to some, for example, "I just popped one out", "Pop that monkey!", "Pop that booty", "Pop them pills", "If I don't pop soon I'm gonna explode", "I popped a pimple just to feel the ooze", "Iggy Pop", and "Shut up or I'm gonna have to pop a cap in your gargantuan gluteus maximus." I, however, who is a pop to two children, like lots of pop, including kinds of soda pop. A lot of it is not really popular, but is so-called experimental pop, art pop, indie pop, or avant pop. Some really was popular, a lot of it is quite indie/ alternative. So I'd include favourites of mine from the 90s such as Air, Stereolab, and Bjork. Earlier today I was listening to the Cardigans, which rateyourmusic calls twee pop. So what is some pop or poppy music that you like from the 90s? Of course that can cover a huge amount of music. Use your own discretion to define what are amorphous parameters when it comes to pop genres and poppy music. BIG EDIT: I wrote this little essay (a little essay but a long post) later on in the thread due to discussion about the nature of pop and poppy music -- the various conceptions, parameters, expectations. As it can such a nebulous and much-encompassing thing, I think this topic needed more exploration. I am duplicating it here because many who don't read through the thread might still read to the opening post for clarification, and to understand intent. The first post sets the stage, but then all the world's a stage and we are merely players. So, following future discussion, I will attempt to define pop music in various ways since I don't hold to any one definition and to me it is a very nebulous thing. It can mean different and many things (have different connotations). Note: I am no musicologist. I have done research into this, not as deeply as I would have liked, and shared related thoughts and inferences, plus some "unfunny humour" as I am wont to do (now there's an oxmoron, but then I am something of an oxy moron, oxy meaning sharp, and a moron being dull-witted, which presents its own oxymoronic quality). First off, I wrote that this is about pop genres and poppy music, so I should define poppy. Poppy: a flower, that thing worn on Remembrance Day that may poke you with that needle if you're not careful, or having pop-like qualities (GED - Greg's Egregious Dictionary) Poppy, poppish, popesque, or popsiquescent if one prefers, or even popalicious. Clearly to understand the notion of poppy, one must understand conceptions of pop music. There is overlap here: 1. Any music that is popular at a given time and has popular appeal (antonym: unpopular music). Mainstream music.* * Note that some art pop artists, progressive pop artists, experimental pop artists,or avant pop artists (all can be conflated) sought to deconstruct pop music, to marry the popular with the esoteric, to elevate pop from its lowly roots to a serious art-form, or to create a dialectic between the low art and high art, a sort of conversation and synthesis of two worlds. Some of it is a celebration of the low, some of it is a commentary on the low arts and popular culture. Some is very conceptual. Some artists tried to buck the trends, played with genre bending, form and structure, and even set itself up against the mainstream and the industrial nature of pop manufacture, one might say Pop in Oppsition (PIO/ Avant Pop). Some pop music is more complex than others. There is music deemed pop that not only is not commercially successful but has limited commercial appeal. I will discuss some of these pop sub categories after this list, and talk more about that so-called pop music that might be seen as antithetical to pop. 2. Any music that is simple, has a strong beat, is catchy and is easy for the plebs to digest (antonyms: academic music, esoteric music). 3. Music that is designed to be quickly consumed, shallow, the fast food of music, and is ideal for certain radio formats (antonym: radio unfriendly deep gourmet but indigestible music).* *Note: some pop is much more timeless, I'd say, than others, and can be deeply emotionally resonant and is more likely to be returned to again and again, and has achieved a classic status (others a cult status). 4. All music that has had popular appeal, including rock, punk, folk music, crooner music, jazzy music, New Wave, BootyWave etc. (antonym: non-popular unappealing music such as Hairy Booty Puddle). 5. Music distinct from rock and jazz that has a softer quality, is catchy and usually follows the verse, chorus, bridge structure (antonym: loud 'n heavy duty jazzcore brutal metal). 6. A modern music phenomenon with verse, chorus structure designed for the charts that is simple and included things such as soul and types of R&B (antonym: stone age rock on skull bonking, although that could provide the beat, hmm...). 7. Any music which is easily accessible to the listener (antonym: music that has been safely locked away). 8: To quote from ExittheLemming "short(er) musical forms* accessible by the widest possible audience with verse/chorus and middle eight structures, repeated 'hooks' at climactic points, consistent cyclic rhythms, craftsmanship rather than artistry, simple lyrical themes..." (antonym: EntertheLemming). 9. Justin Bieber's Baby, Baby, Baby Ooh" and that kind of crap. (antonym: Justin Bieber and that kind of good). 10. A diverse set of styles that fall under a pop banner, this includes art pop, sophisto pop, avant pop, chamber pop, baroque pop, lounge pop, jazz pop, pop-rock, pop-punk, bubbblesgum pop, psychedelic pop, pop electronica, experimental pop, sunshine pop, Arabic pop, K-pop, J-pop, Britpop, Raga pop, progressive pop, singer-songwriter and many, many more (antonym: a non-diverse,non-set of non-styles that fall under a non-pop banner). 11. All of the above and more (antonym: none of the above and less). What these subcategories are thought to have in common is that they all draw on types of popular music and, generally, have accessible qualities . Some will hybridise with other genres, but still have a pop feel or keep popular music components, but the structure may be changed and experimented with. Take Avant Pop and Experimental Pop for instance: Avant Pop is considered to be music that is forward-thinking, innovative, and experimental. It is said to balance an avant garde approach or avant garde approaches with stylistic elements from popular music. It may hybridise avant garde and academic music styles with popular music styles. Commonly it can still be catchy while being different. Bands like Kraftwerk, Can, and Tangerine Dream have all been linked to avant pop, as have bands/artists such as Henry Cow, Slapp Happy, After Dinner, Electric Storm, and Laurie Anderson. So have Scott Walker, David Sylvian, Kate Bush, Nico, and Bjork. The Beatles "Tomorrow Never Knows" is considered an example of avant pop for how it incorporated musique concrete techniques, Indian elements, and avant garde techniques into a pop composition. Art Pop is loosely defined,and can include a huge amount of music deemed artistic. It overlaps with avant pop and various other classifications. It has been defined as any pop style that deliberately aspires to the formal values of classical music and poetry. It is commonly linked to post-modernism and is said to be a breakdown of the boundaries between both high and low culture, and it plays with signs and signifiers, and so do memes (I still like LOL Cats).* Note: Art is sometimes considered in contrast to industry, so art pop may not be as commercial, but much that is considered art pop was very commercially successful. Like pop itself, art pop has various connotations and parameterisations (those parameters being amorphous). I try not to box myself (that might give me a black eye) into what are essentially fuzzy boxes (boxes with no clear edges or boundaries, some that I might call hyperboxes, like tesseracts, get it?). Sometimes art is just a term used by snobs to elevate music they like,I might say. Wait,I just did say that. Art can be in the eye of the beholder and beheraer, but in some contexts art is held to be in contrast to industry (I wrote a paper called the Art of the Industry for Sociology about film, and spent much time talking about so-called Art House film. Mostly it was about ideology). Art Pop can be subversive, deconstructing pop conventions, and melding with other forms of music (notably that which is considered to be high-brow art music, or esoterica). Progressive Pop is music that tries to break with the pop genre's standard formula. It can be likened to progressive rock that tried to break free of the constraints of the rock canon. Progressive pop may have extended instrumentation, break from traditional verse/chorus expectations bring in non-pop influences but still have an underlying pop aesthetic,or pop qualities. Unlike much pop, harmony, simple though pop harmonies ten to be, commonly is not its backing structure. It is generally more complex than other forms of pop, long songs are common, and some might call much of it progressive rock lite -- a crossover between the world of progressive rock and certain pop formats. Experimental Pop can be difficult to categorise within traditional musical boundaries. It commonly pushes elements of existing popular forms into other forms, or new forms, to create something new and different (a hybridisation of forms), It often will utilise experimental music techniques such as those of musique concrete or incorporate unusual sounds into the music such as the sound of a fat man eating pork chops, or a baby sliding around the floor in a bacon diaper. It can experiment with form, sound, and technique.* * I would place music such as Pink Floyd's "Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict" under this label. Some pop can and will play with form a lot and draw on various genre inspirations while still having popular music qualities. Not all pop must be popular, some just draws on popular music styles, and can be musically related to pop genres. It can be sound, a structure, an approach, all three of those,and a measure of popularity. It can incorporate various styles,,and sometimes, I would say, you just have to experience it and related music. It can cover a huge amount of music. It is sometimes defined by what it is not, for instance, "It's not Academic Music", but it can aspire to academic music and draw on academic music. It is what it is, it is what it is not, and some might say that both statements can be true. It can be a very amorphous label that can mean different things to different people and mean different things at different times. Some might say, it's silly to deal with all these labels, and we should just be talking about "music". Some will not associate some music with pop that others label pop, to which I would then ask, "How then would you classify and describe the music?" "What sorts of music would you relate it to?" "What do you think influenced it?" With pop music having so many connotations, imagine how much music could be considered poppy/ poppish, popesque, popsiquescent? For the purposes of this topic, I would say if you would describe the music as poppy, or of a pop genre, then it fits. I wanted to focus on certain styles of music that get associated with pop, but defining that is very open to interpretation. This why I put pop in quotes in the title and spoke of the amorphous qualities of both pop as genre classifications and in regards to poppy music. Pop is a mainstream music classification, refers to popular music, and has genre implications. There are those that draw on generic pop and play with the conventions and will not have mainstream success, some will. Experimental pop can still be catchy and accessible. Much of my favourite pop is playful. Of course there are many other possible definitions I didn't add and there's much more to say. That said, I hope that clears things up a bit, or it may muddy things even more. Pop is like a box of chocolates, some is sickly sweet, some is bitter, and a lot might leave a bad taste in the mouth -- rather like soda pop. I would hate liver-flavored carbonated drinks. Pop is commonly catchy, but then so is the Corona Virus. I hear certain poppy music qualities that make me think pop when others might think, "That ain't what I call pop." I hold multiple conceptions of pop music, but pop to me is something of a feeling to the music, often that is associated with the singing, but some music I easily lump in under the pop umbrella that is completely instrumental. There are structural considerations and various associations to be made. I don't deeply intellectualise it (as may be all too apparent with this little essay). I associate it with other music that I think of as pop. It is a very associative process, and that's how I tend to think about music under the Prog Umbrella generally -- ProgUm and PopUm I coined such things as. Those catchy verses for me are often a sign, but there's more than that. It need not be simple, some pop music can be very emotionally resonant, it can be deep, much is hardly disposable and does stand the test of time and receives reputable critical acclaim, both at the time and decades later. Sometimes it's just plain fun for me, but some of it really does move me, and not just move my booty. Hope that is illustrative. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Replies:
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 17 2020 at 19:42
| Many of us snobbed 80’s Pop, nowadays many acts from that era actually have a lot of class and quality musicianship, songwriting skills etc. Maybe in 20 years time 90’s Pop will be regarded as sophisticated a rather complex, but not today Miley. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 17 2020 at 20:37
I'm not as interested in how certain types of people will regard it in 20 years as what people think of varieties of 90s pop music now. This was meant to be an appreciation thread and topic for exploring music. I dislike a lot of pop, but I love various art pop, avant pop, and indie pop. Pop music is a very broad label that can encompass a wide variety of expression. Which is not to that I'm averse to having such a discussion with you and others provided we all try to keep an open mind. I enjoy dialectic on all manner of things. If you mean Miley Cyrus, she wan born in the 90s, and was a 2000s thing, but that's not at all the kind of music I've been getting into from the 90s. It's not particularly sophisticated music, if I want that then I listen to academic/ art music, never thought Prog is as sophisticated as many proggers claim, but for me there's plenty of art pop and avant pop from the 80s, 90s and up that I like. I don't think of bands like Dream Theater, or Yes, when I think erudite. The first track off Stereolab's Emperor Tomato Ketchup, which is classified as an art pop album, sounds more like Can than the likes of Miley Cyrus et al (not that I'd call Can erudite). I personally don't care much about what other people will think in 20 years time, I'd rather let my own ears decide now. I like stuff like this: And the ambient loungey pop of this: We have the pop of Tori Amos in PA, and Bjork has an entry of course. It's a wide field, a loose classification. with diverse expression. I would hope that the sophisticated liberal-minded people at PA will be open-minded and open-eared, and dare I say, progressive and adventurous. Is that Cardigans song much less sophisticated than a lot of music Prog bands were making in the 90s,as so it will be twenty years before such music is likely to be appreciated by the cognoscenti (not that Prog itself gets a lot of respect from a huge many music academics and intellectuals that I know of)? Hell, I loved many experimental art pop artists back in the 80s, such as this from 1981, or art pop albums like Laurie Anderson's Big Science. I couldn't have cared less if such pop wasn't generally respected back then, although I think art pop has long had respect amongst certain types. Anybody who would be dismissive of any and all pop of the 90s, including art pop, is on a totally different wavelength from me, but perhaps my tastes are just not as sophisticated as others, but wait, Crossover is quite a popular category and lot of Prog could be called pop (some would say all of it),and many Prog artists made pop-genre music. I think I have diverse tastes from sophisticated classical music, to electronic, to jazz, to folk, to psychedelic, to forms of rock, to kinds of pop. I try not to let labels dictate my tastes, even if certain things like metal, AOR, country and rap tend not to float my boat (I will find exceptions). Of its I think it;s because such people will not have explored it in depth, and just think of certain kinds of hits that they dislike. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Tom Ozric wrote:Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 17 2020 at 21:13
|
^^ Loved Stereolab...still play Mars Audiac and Emperor Tomato....but I did listen to some of the 'grunge' bands like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, and Dave Matthews, REM.......never really listened to the hard core top 40 pop stuff.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 17 2020 at 21:17
|
Gives this rodent goosebumps but has always struck me lyrically as an inchoate 'Brexit' signal? ------------- 
|
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 17 2020 at 21:19
| Yes - there are some decent 90’s artists, as you have pointed out, although I don’t chase them up. I do like Air a lot. I’m just being a dick, pot-stirrer etc. I’ve just limited myself to 70’s - 80’s select Pop / Mainstream artists, Prog and Metal. I have enough awesome stuff on my plate, and I know I’m still missing out on lots. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 17 2020 at 21:50
|
^ Barbarella said, "A Good many dramatic situations begin with screaming." I say that some of the most lengthy of posts can be set-off with a little dick-stirring. I think pop is such a huge category that one include rock, folk of course, metal, polka. A lot of progressive pop is a hybridisation of styles, much like Prog. I;m always interested in exploring ideas (even if my ideas in return are not well thought-out or expressed), so actually appreciate the chance to delve into my related thoughts cum vortex of madness. Forums are for fun more than anything to me. ^^ I liked that The Sundays track, thanks for sharing. I'm loosely reminded, only very loosely mind you so don't read much into it, of another pop song by a pop artist I like, Kate Bush's Lionheart. Yes, an admittedly vapid comment. ^^^ Ah, yes, I like REM, and some grunge. One I liked in the 90s was various pop-rock of the B-52's. And while I wasn't that big on 90s music in the 90s, I liked pop music such as Eels' "Beautiful Freak", The Cardigans' "Celia Inside", some Bjork.... A reason why I begun exploring it was because I found an old Chris Moris radio black comedy online called "Blue Jam" from the 90s. At first I just wanted to listen to the "sketches" (could be very dark indeed), but I then found myself listening to the music. That's how I got into Stereolab, and why I decided to put on the Cardigans today. It's even given me some new appreciation for some techno music that I was dismissive of in the 90s, such as the Orb. The context of how and where you hear something can make a big difference. By the way, as we were speaking of complexity, while I like plenty of complex music (especially of the classical/academic music ilk), I also like some really simple music, especially when it comes to folk music. Vashti's "Winter is Blue" is a pretty good example. I definitely like a variety in my diet. I've never been much of a rocker, I do like some really heavy music, but I have tended to gravitate to the gentler sides of music (pastoral for instance), despite having been very into experimental and often dissonant and out there music. My first love was classical music. Commonly I like quirky in a variety of art forms. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 17 2020 at 23:31
|
90s is very diverse and all over the map. Something for everyone. In time, it will be recognised as the boldest (at least after the 60s) that pop specifically got and the last decade that the musicians were able to fight the machine and own. I can hear some snorts already coming my way at this sentence but honestly ask yourself what, if anything, was great about 70s pop barring maybe the odd great ABBA or Carpenters track (and which were both still in a safe zone compared to some of where the 90s got to)? Floyd, Eagles, Boston is all rock. If you want rock, there is plenty of subversive rock music in the 90s too, be it Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Jane's Addiction or Faith No More. Not a match for the depth and variety of the 70s but a definite step up from the corporate rock-OD of the 80s. I believe 1999 also set a record for album sales in a single year (though mostly on the back of turds) and the piracy-download-streaming armageddon that followed subsequently has ensured that the record stays for a long time.
My favourite non-rock album from the decade is Fiona Apple's When The Pawn. Perhaps, it would be cheating to call it pop because it barely went platinum. But the songs are uniformly catchy and accessible enough that they should have charted had they been promoted well (no reason to believe they wouldn't have, it was an Epic Records release). Maybe it was a symptom of the dumbing down of chart topping music already taking place, making even slightly intelligent and complicated pop beyond the pale. Even so, her single 'Criminal' from her first album Tidal, the one that got her a Grammy and led to her epic rant on the Grammy stage, still has enough of the craft that has gone on to define her career. It has a Crowded House-like atmosphere and eschews typical dance pop patterns of the time. In the UK, the acid jazz scene produced a lot of interesting music. Some of it is pretty esoteric but even the most successful of those bands, Jamiroquai, walked the tightrope between accessibility and subversion well. The video of their below single, UK #3, was an award winning one and with good reason: I know Tori Amos is in our database  but as singer songwriter pop, her Little Earthquakes album was excellent. Crucify reached #15 on the UK charts, a good counterpoint to the melismatic-acrobatic direction that female solo pop was already taking by then. Speaking of melismatic-acrobatic, Whitney Houston's All The Man I Need. A very rare one that managed to channel her range into a direction that exuded passion rather than, um, range masturbation. The best thing she ever did will still be Memories back before she became a star but this manages to capture a slice of that R&B beauty that was alive coming into the 80s and which Clive's machine more or less killed. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: April 17 2020 at 23:56
| I like Björk, but I think she made her two greatest albums in 2000: Medulla & Vespertine. Some of her electro nineties sounds have been recently too much for me, really love quite organic sounds of those albums I mentioned! I think I listened some nineties pop in nineties (for example Stereo Total and The Cardigans) but not that much today. I prefer lot more from the nineties artists like Sonic Youth, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Nomeasno, Trumans Water, Thinking Fellers Union Local 282, P J Harvey, Melt-Banana & U.S. Maple. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 00:32
|
^ I liked PJ Harvey too. ^^ Of course pop music is not just a sign of popularity but of styles, and it can include some very experimental/ unusual music that wouldn't have a big following. Fiona Apple made good art pop/ chamber pop/ jazz pop music. I haven't payed attention to popular chart positions, but it is interesting to see where the public was at. I do think it was a bold decade for music. I've even come to appreciate dance club pop like Opus III's "Its a Fine Day". I did club a lot at the time. I mentioned Tori Amos in passing, Bjork of course is also in, and so is Kate Bush and various pop artists in our Crossover category. Kate Bush released Red Shoes in 1993, and I'd classify that as art pop I was reminded of one of my favourite chamber pop/ psych pop/dream pop/indie rock acts of the 90s, Mercury Rev. This song was all over the place back then over here, and I really liked it. And more for nostalgia-sake than anything, this hit dance techno pop number. I like it and hope I don't kill this thread as I did another by posting The Midnight Express soundtrack. EDIT: Forum is back in business, nice. I like the dream pop qualities of this (this kind of ambiance, and down-tempo quality is pretty typical of a fair amount of poppy music from the time that I like -- Portishead-like qualities). And in case anyone wonders, this is not the Mono in PA. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 01:06
| When was Kula Shaker around ? I didn’t mind their debut I think it was - a psychedelic one....?? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 01:18
I looked it up, debut album came out in 1996. And I see it classified as Neo-Psychedelia, Britpop (plus Raga Rock, Psychedelic Rock as secondary labels). There's quite a lot of good psychedelic Britpop, I think. I used to be very into one that's neo-psychedelia pop, The Polyphonic Spree, but I see that didn't get started until the early 2000s. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 01:39
|
There is the interesting sounds of trip-hop also mostly of 90s origin, Massive Attack, Portishead and more And the early post-rock Tortoise, Goodspeed My Black Emperor whom saw some widespread appeal. -------------  
|
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 02:35
|
Wasn’t that big on pop during the 90s but have since acquainted myself with quite a few artists and albums that really connect with me. A good portion has already been mentioned above actually. I had a listen to Kula Shaker’s sophomore album a little while back and took a little trip down memory lane. I vividly remember spinning that sucker during high school - digging the hell out of the Indian instrumentation with tablas and sitars ornamenting their sound...which really is a nifty combo of the late 60s and the more psychedelic quarters of the “Brit-pop scene”. Peasants, Pigs & Astronauts. Very much recommended if you dig the above description. How about the Japanese band Fishmans? I only own the album Long Season, but it is a stellar dream-pop excursion with these beautiful almost sensuous swaying synths and guitar glissandi. There’s also psychedelic element to it that I really dig. One of my favourite XTC albums is from the 90s as well...which is rare with me. I tend to prefer artist’s earlier material rather than an album made 20 years down the line. This one though is one of the exceptions. Really playful and melodically dense. Maybe it’s also the cover, but I feel like being transported into this warm and humid jungleland of sorts every time I spin it. Apple Venus Volume 1 Straight from the 60s...it’s...The Olivia Tremor Control!!! Both Music From An Unrealised Movie Script, Dusk At Cubist Castle and Black Foliage: Animation Music Volume 1 are brilliant albums. The latter I have Steve (HolyMoly) to thank for. Baroque pop with a twist of the experimental..and that oh so elusive warmth of the hippie days. Supergrass’ In It For The Money was one of the only popular albums I picked up on at the time of it’s release. Alright it did not experience the same kind of success as the rivalling albums from Blur and Oasis, but I think the songwriting and playing here trumps what either of those bands were capable of...maybe except for Blur’s 13...but they obviously needed vast amounts of drugs in order to make that album and almost snuffed it as a consequence. I am however very grateful for 13, which is one of my faves from the decade. Blur’s finest hour imo. Experimental, Krautrock-like in it’s motorik beats as well as in the manner it plays around with odd effects and electronics. Lately I’ve been getting into The The. Started out with their 1980s high water mark Soul Mining and then dived further into their albums from around the same era. It’s only very recently that I started paying attention to some of their later work from the 90s, like fx Dusk. Basically art pop but with a smokey and nighttime-like aura about it that really works. Robin Hitchcock’s Eye from 90 is also a cracker of an album. Highly recommended to fans of psychedelic folk from slightly left-field. There are more...but my sausages need a rest. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 02:42
^ Plenty for me to check out there, thanks David. EDIT: actually, one of those I had heard music from that I remember, Robyn Hitchcock’s Eye. I'm really big on psych folk of course. Good psych folk/ psych pop.
Funny you mention that, I was thinking about such things when I likened that "not Japanese" Mono track, which is also a trip-hop album, to Portishead, which got me associating with post-rock. This kind of thing happens a lot. Portishead definitely has a musical relation to quite a bit of the 90s stuff I've explored and was planning to post this. By the way, Morttementioned PJ Harvey, but I would have mentioned these very popular ones. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 02:56
|
Motorpsycho was quite "pop" in the 90s with radio charting hits and songs that were played on radio, stil proggy but also a big dose of pop. I also like the early the Verve albums, psychadelic and trippy rock before Silly Symphony -------------
|
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 03:02
|
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 03:08
|
One of the more interesting and eclectic artists of 90s is Moby, fron alternative rock to house music and a myriad of experiments in-between. Moby is part of the "90s sound" -------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 03:28
|
^^ Yeah, I really love "Sour Times". That and PJ Harvey's The River have got quite a bit of play from me over the past six months. Partially because both songs featured in this 90s dark comedy with music radio program that I have streamed many times. That got me checking out so much music. ^^ Yep, Moby I like too, things like "Everything is Wrong" and early Verve is good from what I've heard, as is Motorpsycho (though I don't know Motorpsycho as well as I probably should). One on the periphery of pop from the 90s, but certainly was very popular is Beck. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 03:30
|
this song is quite nice https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rM--0MqS60k" rel="nofollow - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rM--0MqS60k -------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 03:38
|
Yep, I like that and here's a good, popular one from David Byrne from 1997. And of a different feel: And I can't not post this, as this is the song that got me really exploring 90s pop. And things like this that push the boundaries of art pop song length, but not really, cause it's also loungey Indietronica: ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 04:34
|
Sorry, a few more. Turning into a very reminsicent thing for me (I loved the 90s -- the most exciting decade of my life): ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 04:51
Yes! I forgot to mention Massive Attack and Portishead. Also Erykah Badu.
|
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 04:55
|
Some of the choices here I do not see as "pop". Therefore I officially declare I do not know what pop music is.
 |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 05:20
Try to pop a balloon, record it, then sing about it. Like I said in my original post, "So what is some pop or poppy music that you like from the 90s? Of course that can cover a huge amount of music. Use your own discretion to define what are amorphous parameters when it comes to pop genres and poppy music." This is fairly typical approach for me. I like that openness, and I like open sorts of questions that give people flexibility to approach things in their own way, and be creative thinkers in their own way. So I meant by that that its really fuzzy, there are no defined boundaries. Amorphous meaning "without a clearly defined shape or form". But feel free to define those boundaries according to your perspective. I hasn't intended to get into deep epistemology here. I don't know anything with absolute certainty, but I'm more confident of some things than others. It is very vague conception, it can cover a huge amount of ground and incorporate and crossover with many genres. It is something I have a particular feel for, but can't easily define. Others might have a different feel. To some they just think a sort of vanilla pop, and discount, say, various types of art pop. It's like Prog, sometimes you just feel something to be Prog, but not everyone can agree on the definition or boundaries. It's very diverse in styles. Some consider rock music to be pop music, and folk to be a kind of pop music. Poppy of course could cover a lot of what we have in PA, especially in categories such as Crossover. I was hoping people wouldn't worry too much about how others view it, but come at this from their own perspective. It can be wide or much more limited. For one thing, there are many subgenres of pop, which includes art pop, jazz pop, pop-rock, avant pop, baroque pop, pop-pop, chamber pop, soda pop, chanson, Arabic pop, adult contemporary, pimple pop, bubblegum pop, folk pop, pop punk, jangle punk, dadaist pop, neoclassical pop, gangster pop, singer-songwriter pop, lounge pop, synthpop, dream pop, vanilla pop, lollipop... If there's something you like from the 90s that you think is pop, then I say go for it. This is quite the free-wheeling topic into 90s music. EDIT: This might help. Here is the 90s pop chart at rateyourmusic: https://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=1990s&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=pop&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=" rel="nofollow - CLICK Flaming Lips. that's one I like mentioned there. Just as prog covers much ground at PA, that chart covers a lot of ground. The more variety of pop styles one hears and the more familiar with such labels, and pop subcategories, the more I expect that conception would grow. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 05:24
|
Yes I know, Shaun Ryder and Bez were God's gift to the toilet seat but almost all of the Black Grape debut album It's Great When You're Straight was awesome. (I suspect most of the musical input was Danny Saber's?) -------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 06:41
|
^ Fun. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 06:54
|
It depends on how you define pop. If it is something purely commercial which is more about making money than artistic expression, I rarely find it worth listening to. And there were a lot of horros in the 90's in that category. But the term pop is also used in other ways, as a sort of opposite of rock, referring to something relatively "soft" and melodic. And such music can indeed be very artistic. As for "pop" music of the 90's, I really like Björk (which is clearly not pop in the first sense, it is on a high artistic level), britpop bands such as Blur and Pulp (not Oasis!), Garbage, Eels (is that pop?)... Other favourite artists from the 90's include Portishead (triphop), Hedningarna (Swedish/Finnish mix of folk music and electronica), Sorten Muld (Danish ditto - I guess they could be considered pop): |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 07:23
|
I counted Eels in the pop world. Indie-pop/ chamber pop/ singer-songwriter meets alternative rock. I'm not interested in the really commercial vanilla pop music generally. I much prefer art pop, types of chamber pop, avant pop, kinds of psychedelic and folk pop, progressive pop and other types of pop. There is so much diversity when one explores beyond vanilla, banal, commercial pop (the typical chart topping hits) I didn't know Hedningarna or Sorten Muld, but I'd count that music you posted as pop surely (pop of the folktronica/ trip hop ilk). I really liked that song you embedded the video for, thanks. :) ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 07:34
| ^ isn't avant-pop an oxymoron? |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 07:40
My simple (simplistic) definition of pop is anything not driven by guitar riffs in the way we normally associate with rock (so it CAN have elements of rock and still be pop) but revolving around a catchy verse-chorus. By that definition, it could include a very wide variety of music, which pop music usually does.
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 07:50
I don't think so, most certainly not necessarily. Avant means forward-thinking, innovative, advancing, progressive, and pop can be all of those things. There is a category of pop called experimental pop, as well as progressive pop. Now unpopular popular music is an oxymoron, but not all music that is considered to be pop under a wider usage is actually popular. It can be funny when retro bands get called Progressive Rock (i.e. regressive progressive rock), but we don't always take the progressive literally anymore, or treat the progressive in an adjectival sense. It's much the same with pop music. It can describe styles of music, certain mainstream qualities to the music, and can be described by what it is not. Described against other types of music.... Pop can encompass a huge amount of music depending upon one's usage. A lot of Avant-Prog isn't truly avant-garde, a lot of progressive rock isn't truly progressive, and a lot of what can be considered to be pop isn't truly popular. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 07:55
like I said, I don't know what pop music is anymore. then what is the difference between pop music and mainstream music?
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 08:05
| What do we call something like Kate Bush's Sat On Your Lap? Avant-pop seems like a good slot. Much of that album (The Dreaming) as such. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 08:10
I was trying to say before that pop can mean more than one thing. There is more than one definition and it can be a very nebulous concept. There is not necessarily any difference between mainstream music and pop. The two can be synonymous. It depends on the usage. Mainstream is easier to define, since pop need not necessarily be mainstream but that which is more "out there" for instance adopts and adapts mainstream qualities in the music. I find certain qualities, such as verse/chorus structure in pop that I might not find in all mainstream music. For the way I think of it, not all pop is mainstream and not all mainstream music is pop, but there are different working definitions and parameters. You're not wrong to use the term in one way, just recognise that it can be used in different ways. Terms often have multiple definitions, and some can be very amorphous indeed. EDIT: By the way, some define pop specifically by the structure of the songs: the verse, chorus, bridge structure and so will ague that, say, a particular long Prog song is really just an extended pop song because it follows that structure. What is pop to me is less rigorous, or systematic/ structured, and involves my pop music associations to a considerable extent (my sense of it is at least not so conscious and rigid as with others). But what sounds like pop to me, you might not associate with pop/ popular music. Still thinking about this: I would suggest instead of thinking, "I don't know what pop music is anymore", think "I still know what pop has meant to me and it can continue to mean that, but I see that it can mean more than that to others even if I don't get understand it yet, or I never will". With an open-mind and exposure, and bit of research, you might get to understand how diverse it can be. You might stick with your parameters and that's fine. Like I said, it doesn't make you wrong, you are just working with different parameters. Being here here should hopefully be a learning experience and a means to grow for all of us. That's been one of the joys of being at this site, and having debates and discussions, it's opened up my world a bit and made me re-evaluate what I thought I knew. There is huge amount that I don't know about pop music or music generally, and I don't claim to be an authority on the subject. I've formulated ideas over many years, but those ideas are always subject to change when presented with new evidence or a compelling argument.... I'm no absolutist, and I am ultimately agnostic when it comes to all things. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 08:18
Sure, or experimental progressive art pop, and I count Slapp Happy and Art Bears as having made Avant Pop music, and a a fair amount of Japanese music such as After Dinner, music by Charming Hostess. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 08:59
|
Pop music is anything and the variations of music that came out of Irvin Berlin / Cole Porter / George Gershwin and any bumps, scratches, stylings, drugs, antidotes and streams of thougths and ideals they have gatherd under their nails. If i got to summerise a theory Some of it inspired by Howard Goodals documentaries. -------------
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 09:21
(I think) I'm in broad general agreement with you but I'm unsure if I completely understand your argument. Reductio ad absurdum: By your criteria Garth Brooks would have been considered avant-country in 1989 and by extrapolation, the Pop in Pop music does NOT denote popular but is merely a rather lazy shorthand for music that 'falls within familiar stylistic tropes and structures' I guess this is where my confusion (and that expressed by Cristi) arises as I consider practically every artist listed on PA as Pop music, (which does not diminish their artistic worth in the slightest) albeit they are made to inhabit different filing cabinets at Bean Counter Central HQ  -------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 10:29
|
I guess I didn't address that in my follow-up post to Cristi, or related issues in my initial response to him well enough to follow. My point has been that these terms can have different usages. My point would be that Garth Brooks could have been considered an avant-country artist (I don't know his music well but that doesn't matter) if he was considered forward-thinking, innovative (my following experimental music sentence was also meant to be taken as referring back to that sentence) under that definition, which parallels what I've been trying to say about Pop music, that it can be defined in different ways. Pop can be a nebulous term, it can cover a huge amount of ground or relatively little depending upon the person/parameters, and just because I may use it one way (it doesn't only mean one thing to me), and use examples that he doesn't consider to be Pop, does not mean that his usage is necessarily wrong. The usage and parameters can vary. I definitely was not implying that pop music does NOT denote popular, I was trying to say across posts that it can have different usages. That extrapolation is antithetical to the points I've been trying to make, and would be the wrong inference taking into account what I have written across various posts in this topic. I recognise that all of the music in PA could be considered pop (I brought that up on the last page as I recall). It's not how I;m using it for the purposes of this topic, but I did tell others to define and parameterise it as they see fit. So what I've been trying to tell Christi from when he first brought up "Some of the choices here I do not see as "pop". Therefore I officially declare I do not know what pop music is" (I know he was kind of joking) is that Pop can mean different things and have different parameters. In my initial post, this is what I was addressing with, "So what is some pop or poppy music that you like from the 90s? Of course that can cover a huge amount of music. Use your own discretion to define what are amorphous parameters when it comes to pop genres and poppy music." Avant Pop is a label that is used by some whether one likes it or not, I listed many in an earlier post. "There are many subgenres of pop, which includes art pop, jazz pop, pop-rock, avant pop, baroque pop, pop-pop, chamber pop, soda pop, chanson, Arabic pop, adult contemporary, pimple pop, bubblegum pop, folk pop, pop punk, jangle [pop], dadaist pop, neoclassical pop, gangster pop, singer-songwriter pop, lounge pop, synthpop, dream pop, vanilla pop, lollipop", some more serious than others, just seeing if close attention was being paid to my response, or actually I was just being absurd with a few of those. By the way, Avant-Pop is not a oxymoron as I see it or use the term, because the two are not opposites, unlike, say, regressive progressive rock or unpopular popular music. And I am confident that it does not necessarily present a contradiction. I expect I may have muddied the waters more. Sorry for the repetition. I have been doing too much of the talking in that exchange (I lack concision), which doesn't make for the best of discussions. I should have asked some questions back, like "How do you define and categories Pop?" But I tend to follow at least half of the Prisoner axiom "Questions are a burden to others." I'd make a terrible interviewer, but I don't like interviews, I like dialectic. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 18:37
^ Ugh, such long-winded flatulence again.  I forgot to mention two of my earliest exposure to The Cardigans (I really do love such stuff). I like lots of Indie Pop, and have long loved much loungey music: Lot of what I consider pop as a genre, or poppy, had to do with a certian catchiness (epsecially true of things like Bubblegum pop), but other cant be very different, and some haunting. This Anna Calvi Byrne, not from the 90s, from the last decade, I also consider to be pop (I love it): With Air, this was a bona fide pop hit: ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 18:56
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 20:05
I would be better able to follow your line of reasoning if you
offered examples of what you consider some of the characteristics inside the music that could be indicative of Pop e.g.
short(er) musical forms* accessible by the widest possible audience
with verse/chorus and middle eight structures, repeated 'hooks' at
climactic points, consistent cyclic rhythms, craftsmanship rather than
artistry, simple lyrical themes etc Beyond some of those aforementioned criteria, we're reduced to elements that exist outside the music e.g. it's ingested passively by consumers in malls, bars, abattoirs etc and the visual/video elements of Pop promotion
cannot be overstated by dint of the complete dearth of its drop dead
ugly practitioners. *As a historical aside, compliance with the
requirements of broadcast advertisers back in the day engendered the 2
to 3 minute track playing times. I think we both agree that innovation, originality and progression is possible within any genre (see the Beatles, Stones, Beach Boys, Who, Kinks, Barrett et al) and that truly great art does not rest upon inventing an entirely new one. The perception of Pop on a platform like PA strikes
me as a dichotomy arising from a corporately engineered 'branding'
stratagem that started maybe in the 1950's i.e. aesthetic prejudice
pandered to by class distinction marketing versus a global mono culture
initially foisted upon the rest of the world by the US and UK. Yes, I
agree that Pop is a nebulous and amorphous term but so is every term when perception is conflated with fact. -------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 18 2020 at 20:18
|
^ Fair enough, and I don't disagree. I addressed that in some posts by talking about the verse, chorus, bridge structure, and a catchiness, I've also said that I'm no authority on this. Others also tried to address it. I think most people already know the form and qualities of stereotypical generic radio-friendly pop songs. I think I tend to be reasonably loquacious when it comes to such things. If Cristi asks in discussion, I'll go into more details, but it helps if I know where he is coming from, and his ideas too to springboard into my own ideas. If he's not interested in such discussion, that's fine too. I have already spent a long time on this, and had my particular idea that I was trying to express. Really, I had hoped for this to be about sharing music and commenting on each others choices, but, my fault, it took a turn down another rabbit hole that was not what I was trying to go for with this topic. I shouldn't lecture and I do apologise if I seemed patronising. I do enjoy friendly and good-humored discussion. One thing I proffered early on was "The more variety of pop styles one hears and the more familiar with such labels, and pop subcategories, the more I expect that conception would grow." And I offered the rateyourmusic chart as one means to see how some others view pop. I've read up on pop music before, as I expect many of us have (at least looked up dictionary definitions), but actually listening to a variety of those styles can be very illuminating, and one can get a more intuitive feel for the diversity. We haven't achieved a consensus on what is Prog over years (to me it means more than one thing). All it boiled down to was me saying, I believe that Pop has different connotations, and I don't think Cristi is wrong just because others have a different conception (I hold various conceptions). To me as I said earlier, it is often a sound, which can be hard to describe, and I make that appraisal based on my associations. In another way, I consider all popular forms of music to be pop, and in another way... It doesn't matter as long as we can have some sense of where people are coming from, and in the process of discussion as you bounce ideas off of each other, that can be cemented all the more. That takes some effort, it often requires really "listening to" and engaging each other -- trying to understood where that person is trying to come from and sharing where you are coming from, as well as care in using inference. It takes an active interest in what they other is expressing, and some work sometimes to understand intent. Sometimes people lose the context and miss the intent, but often it requires clarification/more detail and examination,as well as re-thinking. It's a process If one is really interested, one will research and explore such things. And of course all who enter this thread can bring in their own ideas and approach. It's a group discussion, and hopefully we can all learn something from each other, or just share the music and let the music do the talking (for those who bother to listen). EDIT: Okay, I gave my "better defining" it a try, as I have been vague about pop, and have not gone into much specific when it comes to pop subgenres, and my sense of poppiness was not well conveyed. I'm not too happy with the results, but hopefully some others will find it useful or at least entertaining. I doubt it will make things I wrote earlier seem clearer or aid discussion much.
Icarium also mentioned Verve, particularly for the trippy, psychedelic early albums before Bitter Sweet Symphony came out. Of course I knew B.S.S (not to be confused with Brain Salad Surgery), but I'm not that familiar with Verve. It's one I have been checking out, I love Neo-Psychedelia, but it hasn't yet resonated with me. Maybe cause it feels kind of angsty in a particular young adult/ teenage way and the vocals feel a little forced to me. Not that this topic is supposed about just what I like. Gonna try some more Verve later. I bet a great many here would groan at the loungey music I'm often posting here, Others I like: (a strong favourite of mine, yet another of a certain loungey Indietronica ilk) ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 02:51
|
So, following past discussion, I will attempt to define pop music in various ways (hadn't put enough effort into that before) since I don't hold to any one definition and to me it is a very nebulous thing. It can mean different things. Note: I am no musicologist and am hardly an authority on the matter, but that never stops me from having opinions and trying. I have done research into this, not as deeply as I would have liked, and shared related thoughts and inferences, plus some "unfunny humour" as I am wont to do (now there's an oxmoron, but then I am something of an oxy moron, oxy meaning sharp, and a moron being dull-witted, which presents its own oxymoronic qualities) First off, I wrote that this is about pop genres and poppy music, so I should define poppy. Poppy: a flower, that thing worn on Remembrance Day that may poke you with that needle if you're not careful, or having pop-like qualities (GED - Greg's Egregious Dictionary) Poppy, poppish, popesque, or popsiquescent if one prefers, or even popalicious. Clearly to understand the notion of poppy, one must understand conceptions of pop music. There is overlap here: 1. Any music that is popular at a given time and has popular appeal (antonym: unpopular music). Mainstream music.* * Note that some art pop artists, progressive pop artists, experimental pop artists,or avant pop artists (all can be conflated) sought to deconstruct pop music, to marry the popular with the esoteric, to elevate pop from its lowly roots to a serious art-form, or to create a dialectic between the low art and high art, a sort of conversation and synthesis of two worlds. Some of it is a celebration of the low, some of it is a commentary on the low arts and popular culture. Some is very conceptual. Some artists tried to buck the trends, played with genre bending, form and structure, and even set itself up against the mainstream and the industrial nature of pop manufacture, one might say Pop in Oppsition (PIO/ Avant Pop). Some pop music is more complex than others. There is music deemed pop that not only is not commercially successful but has limited commercial appeal. I will discuss some of these pop sub categories after this list, and talk more about that so-called pop music that might be seen as antithetical to pop. 2. Any music that is simple, has a strong beat, is catchy and is easy for the plebs to digest (antonyms: academic music, esoteric music). 3. Music that is designed to be quickly consumed, shallow, the fast food of music, and is ideal for certain radio formats (antonym: radio unfriendly deep gourmet but indigestible music).* *Note: some pop is much more timeless, I'd say, than others, and can be deeply emotionally resonant and is more likely to be returned to again and again, and has achieved a classic status (others a cult status). 4. All music that has had popular appeal, including rock, punk, folk music, crooner music, jazzy music, New Wave, BootyWave etc. (antonym: non-popular unappealing music such as Hairy Booty Puddle). 5. Music distinct from rock and jazz that has a softer quality, is catchy and usually follows the verse, chorus, bridge structure (antonym: loud 'n heavy duty jazzcore brutal metal). 6. A modern music phenomenon with verse, chorus structure designed for the charts that is simple and included things such as soul and types of R&B (antonym: stone age rock on skull bonking, although that could provide the beat, hmm...). 7. Any music which is easily accessible to the listener (antonym: music that has been safely locked away). 8: To quote from ExittheLemming "short(er) musical forms* accessible by the widest possible audience with verse/chorus and middle eight structures, repeated 'hooks' at climactic points, consistent cyclic rhythms, craftsmanship rather than artistry, simple lyrical themes..." (antonym: EntertheLemming). 9. Justin Bieber's Baby, Baby, Baby Ooh" and that kind of crap. (antonym: Justin Bieber and that kind of good). 10. A diverse set of styles that fall under a pop banner, this includes art pop, sophisto pop, avant pop, chamber pop, baroque pop, lounge pop, jazz pop, pop-rock, pop-punk, bubbblesgum pop, psychedelic pop, pop electronica, experimental pop, sunshine pop, Arabic pop, K-pop, J-pop, Britpop, Raga pop, progressive pop, singer-songwriter and many, many more (antonym: a non-diverse,non-set of non-styles that fall under a non-pop banner). 11. All of the above and more (antonym: none of the above and less). What these subcategories are thought to have in common is that they all draw on types of popular music and, generally, have accessible qualities . Some will hybridise with other genres, but still have a pop feel or keep popular music components, but the structure may be changed and experimented with. Take Avant Pop and Experimental Pop for instance: Avant Pop is considered to be music that is forward-thinking, innovative, and experimental. It is said to balance an avant garde approach or avant garde approaches with stylistic elements from popular music. It may hybridise avant garde and academic music styles with popular music styles. Commonly it can still be catchy while being different. Bands like Kraftwerk, Can, and Tangerine Dream have all been linked to avant pop, as have bands/artists such as Henry Cow, Slapp Happy, After Dinner, Electric Storm, and Laurie Anderson. So have Scott Walker, David Sylvian, Kate Bush, Nico, and Bjork. The Beatles "Tomorrow Never Knows" is considered an example of avant pop for how it incorporated musique concrete techniques, Indian elements, and avant garde techniques into a pop composition. Art Pop is loosely defined,and can include a huge amount of music deemed artistic. It overlaps with avant pop and various other classifications. It has been defined as any pop style that deliberately aspires to the formal values of classical music and poetry. It is commonly linked to post-modernism and is said to be a breakdown of the boundaries between both high and low culture, and it plays with signs and signifiers, and so do memes (I still like LOL Cats).* Note: Art is sometimes considered in contrast to industry, so art pop may not be as commercial, but much that is considered art pop was very commercially successful. Like pop itself, art pop has various connotations and parameterisations (those parameters being amorphous). I try not to box myself (that might give me a black eye) into what are essentially fuzzy boxes (boxes with no clear edges or boundaries, some that I might call hyperboxes, like tesseracts, get it?). Sometimes art is just a term used by snobs to elevate music they like,I might say. Wait,I just did say that. Art can be in the eye of the beholder and beheraer, but in some contexts art is held to be in contrast to industry (I wrote a paper called the Art of the Industry for Sociology about film, and spent much time talking about so-called Art House film. Mostly it was about ideology). Art Pop can be subversive, deconstructing pop conventions, and melding with other forms of music (notably that which is considered to be high-brow art music, or esoterica). Progressive Pop is music that tries to break with the pop genre's standard formula. It can be likened to progressive rock that tried to break free of the constraints of the rock canon. Progressive pop may have extended instrumentation, break from traditional verse/chorus expectations bring in non-pop influences but still have an underlying pop aesthetic,or pop qualities. Unlike much pop, harmony, simple though pop harmonies ten to be, commonly is not its backing structure. It is generally more complex than other forms of pop, long songs are common, and some might call much of it progressive rock lite -- a crossover between the world of progressive rock and certain pop formats. Experimental Pop can be difficult to categorise within traditional musical boundaries. It commonly pushes elements of existing popular forms into other forms, or new forms, to create something new and different (a hybridisation of forms), It often will utilise experimental music techniques such as those of musique concrete or incorporate unusual sounds into the music such as the sound of a fat man eating pork chops, or a baby sliding around the floor in a bacon diaper. It can experiment with form, sound, and technique.* * I would place music such as Pink Floyd's "Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict" under this label. Some pop can and will play with form a lot and draw on various genre inspirations while still having popular music qualities. Not all pop must be popular, some just draws on popular music styles, and can be musically related to pop genres. It can be sound, a structure, an approach, all three of those,and a measure of popularity. It can incorporate various styles,,and sometimes, I would say, you just have to experience it and related music. It can cover a huge amount of music. It is sometimes defined by what it is not, for instance, "It's not Academic Music", but it can aspire to academic music and draw on academic music. It is what it is, it is what it is not, and some might say that both statements can be true. It can be a very amorphous label that can mean different things to different people and mean different things at different times. Some might say, it's silly to deal with all these labels, and we should just be talking about "music". Some will not associate some music with pop that others label pop, to which I would then ask, "How then would you classify and describe the music?" "What sorts of music would you relate it to?" "What do you think influenced it?" With pop music having so many connotations, imagine how much music could be considered poppy/ poppish, popesque, popsiquescent? For the purposes of this topic, I would say if you would describe the music as poppy, or of a pop genre, then it fits. I wanted to focus on certain styles of music that get associated with pop, but defining that is very open to interpretation. This why I put pop in quotes in the title and spoke of the amorphous qualities of both pop as genre classifications and in regards to poppy music. Pop is a mainstream music classification, refers to popular music, and has genre implications. There are those that draw on generic pop and play with the conventions and will not have mainstream success, some will. Experimental pop can still be catchy and accessible. Much of my favourite pop is playful. Of course there are many other possible definitions I didn't add and there's much more to say. That said, I hope that clears things up a bit, or it may muddy things even more. Pop is like a box of chocolates, some is sickly sweet, some is bitter, and a lot might leave a bad taste in the mouth -- rather like soda pop. I would hate liver-flavored carbonated drinks. Pop is commonly catchy, but then so is the Corona Virus. I hear certain poppy music qualities that make me think pop when others might think, "That ain't what I call pop." I hold multiple conceptions of pop music, but pop to me is something of a feeling to the music, often that is associated with the singing, but some music I easily lump in under the pop umbrella that is completely instrumental. There are structural considerations and various associations to be made. I don't deeply intellectualise it (as may be all too apparent with this little essay). I associate it with other music that I think of as pop. It is a very associative process, and that's how I tend to think about music under the Prog Umbrella generally -- ProgUm and PopUm I coined such things as. Those catchy verses for me are often a sign, but there's more than that. It need not be simple, some pop music can be very emotionally resonant, it can be deep, much is hardly disposable and does stand the test of time and receives reputable critical acclaim, both at the time and decades later. Sometimes it's just plain fun for me, but some of it really does move me, and not just move my booty. Note: I have edited this to add more thoughts. Feel free to critique and add to it. I know it could be much better. I spent hours on it, and I hope it's somewhat worthy of comment and consideration. It would be improved with citations and quotes. I'll add it to the first post, since if those goes on many pages it may be more neglected. Many coming into topics also refer to the opening post to get a clearer picture of what a topic is about and this I would have liked to have prepared for my opening post to set the stage more and open up more conversation. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 03:08
|
Billy Eilish is labeld Avant pop on Wikipedia, and listening to her debute, i can sort of see it. No clear meter and a floating and unusual in the use of rythmic instruments -------------
|
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 03:14
|
the Verves first album "A Storm in Heaven" is abpretty rare treat in sound exploration, with exploration of soundscapes, a Velvet Underground/Krautrock/Floydian feel. Made before post rock were a thing, it incorpirate early post-rock sounds. Oppestitr to Talk Talk and Radiohead they become less experimental on later albums. -------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 05:20
My kids have mentioned her. I checked her out, it's good and I get what you're saying. Would also fit art pop.
Oddly enough I listened to some of that album before, "A Storm in Heaven" and didn't do much for me, but now it is. Very good stuff. My mind must have been elsewhere at the time,or really distracted by other things. Listening to the whole album now. Thanks. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 05:41
|
Another favourite of a certain ilk from the time (Britpop, art rock, chamber pop). Thought I posted this already, but I don\t see it (mind you, I have been awake for more than 48 hours). It's from Pulp's This is Hardcore from 1998. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 05:51
|
I've always liked this song, it was on all mainstream music channels, back in the day, so i guess it's pop music.
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 05:56
|
^ I love that. Interestingly, I almost certainly would have posted that myself by tomorrow. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 06:04
I remember Massive Attack's Teardrop video being omnipresent for a while, I liked the song (I have the album), but did not like the video at all.
|
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 06:50
| Belle and Sebastian anyone ?? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 14:01
The video itself is rather pedestrian.
It's categorised at rateyourmusic as "Chamber Pop, Twee Pop, Indie Pop, Chamber Folk" which sounds just my thing (twee pop is often not really twee). It's also very popular and highly rated at that site. I've come across the name before, and I'm sure I've heard music. If You're Feeling Sinister is the highest rated album there. Wait, what am I talking about? I was listening to music from Tiger Milk the other day. It probably came up in youtube as I was listening to related music. Yes, methinks when I was listening to The Cardigans on youtube it came up on the playlist. Great stuff, thanks. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: handwrist
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 14:23
|
Grunge is pretty cool. Except for Pearl Jam, which are meh. ------------- http://handwrist.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - My Music http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=9405" rel="nofollow - PA Page |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 14:57
Are you laughing at me or with me? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:06
Just pointing out my pun, and maybe laughing at myself for making it. It's a pedestrian video (i.e. dull) featuring a pedestrian (she's walking along). It works on both levels. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:10
oh, ok.
 |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:11
|
Tim Smith said Cardiacs are pop, and if anybody ought to know it's him. Apart from that it's a nice thread collecting nice music but I suspect that pretty much anything can be argued to be pop in one way or another, so why don't call it "good music from the 90s that had some success" (most of it
)? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:50
Cardiacs made pop in my mind too, but some of it strikes me as more "poppy" than others. It depends on one's interpretation. Point taken and I realised that from the beginning when I wrote "Yes pop has bad connotations to some, for example, "I just popped one out", "Pop that monkey!", "Pop that booty", "Pop them pills", "If I don't pop soon I'm gonna explode", "I popped a pimple just to feel the ooze", "Iggy Pop", and "Shut up or I'm gonna have to pop a cap in your gargantuan gluteus maximus." I, however, who is a pop to two children, like lots of pop, including kinds of soda pop. A lot of it is not really popular, but is so-called experimental pop, art pop, indie pop, or avant pop. Some really was popular, a lot of it is quite indie/ alternative. So I'd include favourites of mine from the 90s such as Air, Stereolab, and Bjork. So what is some pop or poppy music that you like from the 90s? Of course that can cover a huge amount of music. Use your own discretion to define what are amorphous parameters when it comes to pop genres and poppy music." I wasn't sure how to title it. I try to bring some humour and absurdity to the proceedings. A better title might have saved me from the hours writing up that mini-essay on pop above (and poppy music), the different expectations, definitions, and parameters, and how broad it can be. On the other hand, I hope it was worth the effort. Probably no one else will get any value out of it, but it got me thinking more, even if thinking badly. Most every good thread to me is a journey of discovery, as well as a meeting of minds, and it often takes you to places you hadn't intended. Should be some surprises along the way. I really wanted to differentiate it from certain kind of music/sounds even if those also can be considered pop in a broad context. But as my main intent was to collect nice music, share some of my favourites with others, and discover some more, it's been successful for me. There's been a lot of synchronicity in this thread. People mentioning others I love, and mentioning ones other people love, and some others I now love. Perhaps the title shouldn't have mattered that much, what matters more is how the thread progresses (the conversation and the examples of music). I wanted to start from a very open-ended place which would allow people to interpret pop and poppy as they saw fit, and to get an idea of how others perceive the terms, and how they reference it. I had more than one interest in making this topic. Mostly it was about collecting music of certain kinds, and listening to each other's music,but I am very interested in concepts and conceptualising. I often like more open-ended questions which leaves room for individual interpretation and a certain creativity. I'm not of a very pragmatic mindset. I do wish my conceptualisation and communication skills were better. What's in my head doesn't always work as well on the page. I often like to approach things in an exploratory way and then find my way as I go along (say, as the conversation progresses from post-to-post). The ideas build and become firmer, as well as more nuanced, as the conversation progresses and the more ideas/ perspectives are synthesised. Each topic can involve a learning process. No, I now think I like my title and approach. I like some sense of mystery, some ambiguity, and I like topics that leave room for individual interpretation and facilitate a building up and synthesis of ideas, as well as mentioning nice music and making recommendations. I appreciate individuality and variety, and each might go about setting up topics differently. Some take a very straight-forward, prosaic, matter of fact and to the point approach, others take a more exploratory approach that leaves things up to the reader's imagination and interpretation. "What are your ten favourite Genesis songs" being for instance a very straight-forward, easy to understand approach, but I doesn't leave the level of room for interpretation coupled with a multitude of approaches that I often enjoy. Nor might it leave much room for discussing ideas and exploring concepts together. My problem can be that I might have such nebulous or open-ended ideas that I lack a good approach and lose any sight of how I was sort of conceptualising things at the point of inception. Then it might take a while to cut through the fog, if ever (to have a sense of clarity of purpose). My favourie topics from others often are those that make me think,and the very best often are those that lead to a synthesis of idea. I like tangents in conversations a lot too, and I often think the most interesting discussions often happen in the margins or in the digressions. Wow, I haven't made one joke in this post, other than some lame stuff I quoted from my first post -- that's what over 60 hours without sleep can do to you. One things I do hope to do from now on when I post a video, is say more about it and how I think it relates to pop (not just from the broadest perspective). I wont go into great specifics, but that way more of my thinking might be revealed. As I wrote up so much on pop, that can serve as an added reference guide, and people can relate that to the videos. I can say a little about where I think it musically/ sonically fits in the pop spectrum, as to me the sound is more important than the chart positions. Perhaps that will lead to some healthy debate too. Me: "It's Art Pop." Other: "No, it's Post-Deconstructive Pop." Me: "Deconstruction is an art style." Other: "No, it's about the deconstruction of art. That's the point!" Me: "To create new art." Other: "No, to destroy art. It is the very antithesis of art. It's a big f*ck you to every so-called artist out there." Me: "That sounds artistic to me. Reminds me of certain performance art." Other: "I'll deconstruct your face if you don't shut up." Me: "How very Cubist of you." Other: "Now I know for sure that you're a poseur." ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 09:19
|
I was also thinking about the band Kasabian whom i discovered on the play list for "This is Footbal" on Play Station, basicly one of the modt 90s sounding acts, saw them at Roskilde cool stuf. Other acts are the Streets, the Chemical Brothers sn and Prodigy. lots of cool and contextual electronic hard music. -------------
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 01 2020 at 11:56
|
^ I remember Prodigy and some of the others. Most of the 90s music I was listening to was featured in a late night BBC one sketch dark, often grotesque comedy meets music radio show called Blue Jam (a Chris Morris radio program), which lasted for 18 episodes (a TV show came out of it called Jam). I couldn't imagine something like that on CBC radio (the Canadian equivalent). Some here might remember his Brasseye show, which in one special he fooled Phil Collins into joining an anti-paedophilia campaign called NonceSense (it was nonsense). That show included songs by The Chemical Brothers. So the music, such as that of Portishead, PJ Harvey, Bjork, Eels, The Cardigans, Broadcast, Pulp, and Morcheeba I might highly associate with the format of he radio show. I discovered Stereolab through it, and well, I knew Air before, as well as Bjork and some The Cardigans. At first I would skip the music mostly, but realised how integral it was to the, sometimes rather nightmarish and otherwordly experience. The radio show has been something of a guilty fascination, rather like listening to true crime/ cult stuff can be. This is what there is of the Blue Jame playlist on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3743119B8782E359" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3743119B8782E359 And on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3iL0bJYnjTx041VkkQTh0x" rel="nofollow - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3iL0bJYnjTx041VkkQTh0x Blue Jam is the kind of thing, though I would have been too tame to make it, I wish I had the creativity and audacity to create. It goes farther than I would be comfortable with. https://archive.org/details/chrismorris_bluejam" rel="nofollow - https://archive.org/details/chrismorris_bluejam It can be very fu**ed up and is not for the squeamish. I appreciate the dark and cynical, and quite clinical, psychological angle of it. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 19:52
A very wide ranging and thought provoking post that I've yet to digest in full or am even sure I understand. In fact I am sure (I don't) I wasn't challenging you to define anything in my previous response as we both know our quarry perishes in the killing jar. My first impression is that what I've highlighted in red strikes me as a specious argument in denial that the source of hierarchical aesthetic values is social mobility, class distinction or plain vanilla narcissism. The corollary being that these same values are somehow manifest in the content itself even if we are not present?!. We cannot separate the knower from the known etc I agree wholeheartedly with what I've highlighted in green: Is there a middle ground between say, God Only Knows* by the Beach Boys and academic/esoteric music that doesn't involve post modern irony or deconstruction? Baudrillard, Derrida, Foucault et al have much to answer for and were fluent only in la langue de bois, (the wooden tongue) where facts are socially constructed and empirical knowledge is outed as an imposter. This just seems like fashionable nihilistic nonsense to me, although why their influence has been cited in a music discussion is obscure. There's clearly niche (read esoteric) Pop but the whole idea that someone like Yes or Led Zep deliver a deeper and more profound reaction in their listeners than say, Justin Beiber or Nickelback strikes me as unfounded. (I'm not even sure such a conclusion can be inferred from your post so I might be barking up the wrong Bonsai there but David Guldbamsen made a similar point a while back in another thread which I vehemently disagreed with initially but have now come round to the conclusion he was right) As previously stated, and speaking very broadly, I consider at least 90% of the artists on PA to be 'Pop Music' without any pejorative implications that such a term might invoke. * I too don't intellectualize this as when I hear Penny Lane, Some Might Say, Something in the Air, Whiter Shade of Pale, Waterloo Sunset, SOS, Rise, Marquee Moon, Break On Thru, Brown Sugar, My Generation that normally unimpeachable mistress 'Time' seems to stop dead in her tracks for a few fleeting moments leaving me transfixed and cleansed. The same is true for certain pieces by Bartok, Stravinsky, Ginastera, Arnold, Copland, Liszt, Monk, Ellington, ELP, the Nice, Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, VDGG. The experience is every bit as deep and moving with the former as the latter. Strangely enough, my user name on Jazz Music Archives is.... Enter the Lemming  One piece of tasteless levity deserves another: I could have lived without the Corona Virus gag
-------------
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 02:50
Yup, we ultimately assign whatever value it holds for us based on our personal experience and who's to say what each one's experience is. I MAY laugh at the idea that somebody thinks Bieber is the most precious musical offering one could ever think of, but what if somebody does think that and does that make him wrong? The hard truth is, no, it doesn't. I don't completely go along with the social hierarchy notion of values and would say it's more about how inquisitive a person is towards music OUTSIDE their roots, their circles, etc.
|
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 03:51
|
I love Oasis. Champagne Supernova is a great song. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 07:11
Yes it is, despite some transparently crass Spinal Tap level lyrics: Slowly walking down the hall Faster than a cannonball I mean how fast can Liam walk or is it an underarm delivered projectile coated in glue?  We both probably agree it pays not to be too analytical about the power of the emotional charge of the 'sound' of music -------------
|
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 08:49
I quite like their debut, "K". I also got their follow up, "Peasants, Pigs & Astronauts", but that didn't appeal to me nearly as much. One thing that seemed to be quite common around that time was the use of a long period of silence after the final track before some brief sound that finally ended the album. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 08:58
|
One of my favourite non-prog albums, also from the 90s, is Red Hot Chili Peppers - Blood Sugar Sex Magik. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 09:03
that's not a pop album. I know it was famous, it sold well, but calling it pop trivializes it.
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 09:12
I'm not judging the value of music for others or the inherent value of types of music. There is a distinction made between high art and low art, and some artists (including musicians) have sought to marry what they perceive as low art and high art, and to aspire to perceived values of high art etc. I have some background in culture theory. Terms such as the low arts and the high arts, or lowbrow and highbrow culture comes from a place of snobbery – the base masses vs. the refined, "well-bred" and well-educated. The idea that there is that which was manufactured for the unsophisticated, and that which is thought to appeal to the sophisticated, the intellectuals, and is created by erudite individuals. An idea that a Bach or a Fellini or has deeper and longer lasting value than the supposed fast-food ephemeral garbage of mass media such as Justin Bieber or some Hollywood action franchise (Die Even Harder., or whatever). I would say that there has always been something of a dynamic and synthesis between perceived low arts and the high art -- say with Shakespeare -- it can be a very nebulous distinction, and those distinctions change over time. That which is considered of little aesthetic and cultural value at one time might be considered to be of much greater worth later. The pulp fiction writer of the day might be considered a sort of literary genius/ luminary later on. Individual perceptions vary, and general perceptions change over time. I'm definitely not saying that Led Zeppelin or Yes has more intrinsic value, is deeper or will lead to a more profound reaction than Bieber or Nickelback, it depends on the listener. Far be it for me to dismiss the value that the hoi polloi find in music. ;) It's all very bourgeois. Yes, for instance, is one that marries what is often considered to be high culture forms (elements of classical music) with low culture. Both Zep and Yes would still be considered low culture/ low art to many a classical music snob and others.
Music for the subject is the relationship between organised sound and that individual brain. Each experience is unique; each brain is different. No two listeners "hear" or interpret music in the exact same way. We all listen to music through different filters, and I would not invalidate that experience which I may be able to identify with to whatever extent but can never really know. What is meaningful to the individual depends on many cognitive/psychological/experiential factors. We each bring our own sense of meaning, our own perception, and value to our listening, and this is informed by our life experiences and sometimes the situation where we heard that song and the mood we were in at the time. This is the realm of audience reception aesthetics, hermeneutics (how individuals interpret text, and I extend this to art generally), neuroscience and psychology. Hierarchical notions of values often are too simplistically expressed when there is a huge range of things to consider. The "this good", "this bad" attitude of some to the arts, and the general black-and-white thinking of some, that all too simple dichotomy, is intellectually lazy, as well as potentially dangerous. Simple-minded moral and aesthetic values are attributed by many to "low culture", but one often find it in those who think they are part of, or aspire to, high culture values. I like open-minded attitudes towards music and in general I value stepping outside of one's circle and comfort zone. Getting out of our bubbles helps to mitigate our cognitive/ emotional biases. Staying in your bubble leads to confirmation bias. A bit of Fox news isn't bad for you, but only Fox news is not healthy. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 09:20
I didn't actually call it "pop". But I did place it in this thread because it does satisfy the first definition given in the OP: 1. Any music that is popular at a given time and has popular appeal (antonym: unpopular music). Mainstream music. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 09:28
|
From Australia, released in 1998, was the electronic Endorphin - Embrace. My favourite track from the album: ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 09:30
by that statement, Slayer is pop music. Iron Maiden is pop music. What about mainstream rock? Does it exist or is it pop music?!
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 09:46
It is in a sense, but pop and "poppy" music has many senses, which is why I wrote that long definitional post (which came about because of our earlier discussion). EDIT:
Good stuff, and that downtempo electro vibe fits in very well with kinds of music I was exploring from the 90s. I came to enjoy House kinds of music much more in recent years than in the 90s. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 11:56
|
Away from the kinds of music I was considering for myself for this topic, but I heard this on the radio back in the 90s and liked it. Just re-listened after many years and I still like it. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 12:31
While we are on the topic of electronic music, this is a track that I like a lot: ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 15:19
|
This band started in the eighties with a major hit album in Germany and many European countries, but actually their hardly known 1993 release is their artistic peak, 13 songs, no two are similar, and all clever and original. Lyrics in four languages (German isn't one of them.) |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 15:33
|
1998: Barbara Morgenstern (who now is among my most listened to and most cherished artists) publishes her first album. By far not her best, but quite cool already - and her only one still in the nineties. Actually, re-listening now, very cool and highly recommended. Kate Bush she is not, vocals-wise, but totally unique and unmistakeable song writing and keyboard playing. And she also does instrumentals, quite regularly. Off topic and just for information: Barbara Morgenstern 2018 - catch the bug! |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 15:56
|
More great female singers singing great songs in the nineties: |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 17:15
|
this thread is giving me a headache... I give up...
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 17:37
|
Well, I genuinely am sorry about that Cristi. I appreciate hearing all the music here and, while I was getting a bit of a headache from spending too much time typing for this thread (to which I chose to do because I wanted to), I genuinely have appreciated the discussion. I wanted it to be fairly free-wheelin' and fun for people. I try to keep open ears and an open mind, just not so open that my brains fall out, as the saying goes. Labels, by the way, commonly become less and less important to me as I get older. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 17:54
|
Re: Barbara Morgenstern - "Die Liebe". Wow, this is amazing! Very original, and I like the adventurous and surprising chord changes a lot. Didn't know her. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 17:55
Given that this is so, you write quite a lot about them.
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 17:56
|
Well, I genuinely am sorry about that Cristi. I appreciate hearing all the music here and, while I was getting a bit of a headache from spending too much time typing for this thread (to which I chose to do because I wanted to), I genuinely have appreciated the discussion. I wanted it to be fairly free-wheelin' and fun for people. I try to keep open ears and an open mind, just not so open that my brains fall out, as the saying goes. Labels, by the way, commonly become less and less important to me as I get older. EDIT: I'm really liking the Barbara Morgenstern, Lewian particularly, and the other music. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 18:04
The irony was not lost on me. It's something of a force of habit at the site as so much of my time here has been spent with people arguing about labels (even if was mostly me arguing). Perhaps we need a much greater variety of trivial kinds of topics in which to argue about quite unimportant things. But those topics should be well defined and categorised. ;) I actually enjoy discussions of all things and exploring ideas as deeply as my poor, stricken brain, and time, allows. Nomenclature is the bane of the archivist and the pedant. EDIT: Seriously, it wasn't so much about me caring about labels, more that I wanted to try to explain where I was coming from cause I felt I hadn't communicated my ideas well enough in discussion, and think I still haven't. That said, my ideas shift as I engage in discussion and get to understand different perspectives. I try to keep an open mind and an open line to communication. My favourite discussions commonly are those that lead to a synthesis of ideas. I am still interested in labels for sure (labels are useful), but I don't care as much about how others use them as long as I can come to understand how they are being used. As long as I have an idea of where another is coming from, and that person understands where I am coming from, and we can both be accommodating, then that lends itself to fruitful and enjoyable discussion for me. When constantly talking at cross-purposes, well, that can be frustrating. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 04 2020 at 08:19
|
While I'm more into classic Krautrock, I was thinking that I like music of the "Krautpop" ilk (some Stereolab being an obvious preference point, and Pram which I posted a track of before, and one track which I thought as 90s but was from 81). I'm digging Prolapse, which is more of a 90s Indie Rock/ Post Punk band with Krautrock qualities than a "poppy" band for me (yes, me and labels but labels help to describe music), but there are dream pop qualities in music. I guess I could have just made this topic "90s music one finds quirky and/or interesting generally not considered Prog" (nah, doesn't work for me either). Or entitled it "Indie/Pop/Alternative/Downtempo/Lounge/Electro etc". Some Prolapse: (this has a very poppy sound to me). Electralane (Indie Rock/ Indie Pop meets Krautrock): Quickspace (which has noise pop qualities): I really hadn't meant to get too hung up on labels, though that has been interesting to think about and delve into, and meant from the beginning, if you find it pop or poppy, then the music you mention fits. If we're enjoying each other's music to some extent, that's what matters more to me than how it's labelled, but that doesn't mean that I don't find the discussion/deep dives on labels interesting in and of itself. Pop and poppy can cover such a huge amount of ground, which I hoped to express. If one uses the terms pop and poppy utilising narrow parameters, that's fine as well. Hopefully we can come to understand each other, but we don't have to agree on the limits. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: May 11 2020 at 09:56
|
Duran Duran - The Wedding Album Crash Test Dummies - God Shuffled His Feet Tasmin Archer - Great Expectations Toris Amos - Little Earthquakes Oasis - WTSMG Probably my 5 favourite non-prog/metal/hard rock albums from the '90s!
|
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: May 11 2020 at 09:59
|
I can second Crash Test Dummie, underrated band oftend to wrongfully prejudged. Album with amazing production. -------------
|
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: May 12 2020 at 03:09
...and very interesting/thoughtful/playful lyrics....
|
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 12 2020 at 03:44
their most famous song (the "mmmm" song) was alright, quirky and playful, but got played so much back then that it got old so fast, you could not escape it...
|
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: May 12 2020 at 04:04
-------------
|
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: May 12 2020 at 04:09
-------------
|
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 12 2020 at 15:04
|
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 18 2020 at 22:01
|
Some Indy Pop/ Dream Pop/ Twee Pop some call it... And some Pram Pram is more my thing, but I do like Dubstar's "Just a Girl She Said". |