Which one do you prefer?

And ... she was very sexy! ;-)

 

By the way, is that Peter Hammill of Van Der Graaf Generator in your avatar?

Oh yeah! 

I thought he looked familiar.

one of my favorite period pics...

fire and ice?? f**king a they were...

intellect and emotion...

and fire wins everytime and in every case not just this one with me.. oh I love Gracie..amazing..

 but that fire... real passion wins out every time.  

Choosing one is hard ... but in the end, Grace went on to do a lot more work than Janis, who sadly, got burned out too soon. The amount of work Grace did, kinda wins this poll for me .... but there are things that Big Brother and Janis did, that are valuable ... when you hear "Ball and Chain" from one of the best rock albums EVER, you know right away where so many "progressive" rock guitarists got their ability and mojo ... and it was simply outasight and incredible. 

Except that getting progressive folks to listen to it is ... strange ... why am I listening to hard blues? Geeee ... maybe I should ask Led Zep the same question?

Led Zeppelin were previously known as the New Yardbirds, and the group changed their name to Led Zeppelin after Keith Moon & John Entwistle of The Who unkindly suggested their music would go down like a lead balloon.

see even progger needs love... some wang dang sweet.. hahah 

Can'r really vote as I know very little about either although White Rabbit crops up in so many TV shows and films its ridiculous.

Yep. Janis was a personality rather than a singer. I never liked her vocals.

I'm glad that someone else agrees with me that Janis Joplin was overrated as a singer, because I've never been a big fan of hers either.

Joplin was one of a kind--  a homely and spectacularly talented Blues artist who was easily seen as a screechy showgirl.

Ragged soul, striking character, the greatest white blues singer of all time.

 

Yup, fire & fire, I'd say

 

Janis had an outstanding voice, but Grace outdid her (she ciould sing in Spanish too), because she was a songwriter too... and even a progressive one too, her Manhole album is absolutely stunning.

 

 

 

Bullpuckyalamerde!

I was doing the colorful stuff and listening on my headset Nektar, Hawkwind, Amon Duul 2, TFTO, TAAB, APP, and just about all the early HARVEST label stuff when Roy Harper and Kevin Ayers and Capability Brown lit up your imagination like a lot of "blues" stuff never did!

VIVE LA LUMINACION!

I like the stuff she did with Paul ... really great material, and then, later, how she adjusted and made her vocals so valuable to Starship ... hearing some of the stuff she did with Marty ... is down right amazing ... I don't think there are many singers that can even consider that!

Funnily enough, I was listening to Starship's Greatest Hits album last night and I noticed Grace Slick is the only original member from the Jefferson Airplane days. I also love the four albums she made with Paul Kantner:- Blows Against the Empire (1970); Sunfighter (1971); Baron Von Tollbooth & the Chrome Nun (1973); & the Planet Earth Rock & Roll Orchestra (1983) 

 

the three solo album Kantner did with Slick (mother of his child China - "gracing" the sleeve of Sun Fighter) are all worthy of inclusion along with Slick's first two albums (yup, 1982's Dreams was excellent as well) in the Prog-Related section if you care for my opinion

 

While Grace was instrumental in giving Jeff Starship an interesting (byt no more) discography, I can hardly forgive her for entering Starship (Even Kantner refused to be part of that tripe (trip going bad = tripe)

 

 

 

 

I knew you were Svetonio and we've just unmasked you

 

Real brits drink their tea with that ever-famous "cloud of milk"

SteveG wrote: Janice was the greatest white female vocalist of all time, which means she was the greatest female vocalist of all time. Luv dem blues!

Janice from Friends?

Not too big a fan of Airplane, but in love with:

& 

So many great people from the San Francisco area meeting up to do those albums in the transition between Airplane & Starship. 

Anyway Janis for a million other reasons.   

 

Svetonio thinks MOR is PROG

 

 

 

JA was, for many, a bit too much ... I think the fact that their members were so different and caused so much different music, made it difficult to appreciate, and when they became "political" they brought out one of the ugliest side of those days ... in Madison, there were issues between left and right, and they were ugly ... and even caused one to blame the other for blowing up this or that ... and of course, it's hard to mention the death of a student immortalized by one song ... and then, the worst happened, which pretty much was to kill JA ... the day that Marty got hit in the face and Grace came close to not only getting hit but also jumped on ... and many other moments, that showed the worst of American politics and their extremes.

And issues between Marty and Paul did not exactly die, although they played with each other and complimented each other very well ... however, it was Grace's voice that worked some incredible stuff with Marty ... and those songs/hits are remembered today.

Grace's books state she won't do "White Rabbit" ever again, and she hasn't to my knowledge and is "retired" from the music stuff, I think ... and her comments are ... not exactly the kind of criticism that we want to hear, but it tells you what she thinks of the folks that ruined SF and the scene with their flowers in their hair! Not to mention that most people had no idea what the song was really about!

Don't remember much of an issue between Marty and Paul after reading Tamarkin's Got A Revolution book, because it is that duo that founded the Airplane (Marty owned a folk club in Frisco before that, place where he & Paul met) and Paul asked Marty in JS .

 

However, Grace did have a problem with Marty, because he never allowed her to screw him (she even pounded hotel doors (she'd sone the wholeclassic line-up band, but never him), but it wasmore Marty having a jealousy about Grace's stage presence on stage   

 

Yeah, that was filmed and is all over the web, but are you saying you were there at the time?

 

 

I was a little too young to have actually been at Altamont as I was only 10 years old at the time and I was about 3,000 miles away in England. I hadn't even heard of Altamont until around 2010 when I first went online. I saw the Woodstock festival too, but I wasn't actually there in person. I watched it nearly 50 years later on DVD.  

 

 

 

====================

 

PP/Svettie,

 

I'm responsible for the Airplane being on PA, and it was quite a fight to get them in as proto-prog, and I'm still tryng to get Quicksilver Mess Service in....

 

I did consider make a package of Kantner & Slick as one single entry, and despite the Sci-Fi nature of Blows Against The Empire (which received a Juno for best Sci-fi oeuvre in 1970, first - and only - time for a record) and the other other two's Sci-fi light concept, but the time frame is not right for Proto-prog.... 

So if it does happen, it will have to be in Prog-related

 

 

 

Not too familiar with the political elements surrounding this, was brought up in a European context, mainly eating European music, only slowly digging into the US scene a decade later. American music was mainly Woodstok - Easy Rider and all the mainstream bullsh*t in my circle early 70's. Zappa and Jazz/Fusion next.

The political elements of the movement was most likely quite different at continental Europe back then as it is also (more or less) today. In general you might say that even the democrats could be considered right wing where i come from, especially in the 70's.                  

What happened in America, was world wide ... and you can see it in a lot of bands through out Europe ... however, the appreciation is kinda spread out all over ... GONG was in it, in France and England, and even got Daevid Allen's passport in trouble and all that ... and Germany was very well aware of the whole thing in America, and it is talked about in many bands ... FZ is not an "accident" in that he is an anti-establishment type of work/person, and that appealed in a lot of places. Hard to say that things were not "heard" in France, since Heldon (for example) had some serious politically minded covers on their albums ... not to mention the titles of the pieces in the albums!

A lot of the others had quite a bit of stuff hidden away, however, that's like saying that SAVAGE ROSE and OSANNA did not have a voice and no one heard them ... the only ones that didn't were the English/British and the PA folks who still think that PG invented the costume thing and the theatrical presentation that had been a part of theater history in Europe for at least 500 years ... but then, English/British history is not a part of Europe, right? 

But it was very well known that in many places a lot of the "new music" was being censored and shut down, and East Germany was one of the best known of these although all of the Communist bloc were known to have the same issue ... to the point that you can even hear a SATIRE of it by Guru Guru on their album "Tango Fango" ... but something that is really hard for folks to understand ... Guru Guru ends up saying that "our new God" is not this or that ... it's "rock'n'roll" ... !!!!!! And we ignore that comment and how valuable it was at the time it came out and the wall didn't come down until much later, when all Roger could do was just about make fun of it ... in my book! I would have given more local bands, and many of them the (so called) "krautrock" members, that had been a part of the fight and this "new freedom". Everyone forgot and ignored them!

Both Joplin and Slick were very important to the music scene, and in general to the whole thing ... both were "anti-establishment" to a point within the confines of their art ... and how they expressed themselves ... Slick, in her book, does not look at a lot of these things with an artistic eye, but she is not a dummy and above all, she is well read and intelligent ... or worse ... just another doll on the stage! 

The only sad thing for me, is that we never got a chance to see/hear Joplin again, and really ... she deserved a lot more ... a lot more ... although I am not sure that she was interested in the politics of it all ... for her the music and its feeling was enough of a revolution and no other words were necessary ... but the intensity, is something that most did not have, or were afraid to even try ... only a handful of people could go that far ... and survive! Europe, by comparison, has a history of the arts that go back hundreds of years ... in America, the "art" has been relegated to the bottom, because commercialism, and meme is more important to everyone. 

(I can't speak for Europe on this last point on more recent days!) ... and thus, both Joplin and Slick come off much more important ... whereas Europe with its breaking apart in so many small countries ... had a tendency to hide and make all the "arts" disappear! America got rid of them, instead!

 

Yeah, easy vote for Joplin here.  

Now if she was pitted against Beth Hart, I would have to think because Beth can do Whole Lotta Love better than Robert Plant.

 

SteveG wrote: Psychedelic Paul wrote: I could suggest Grace Slick for inclusion in the Prog-Related section of Prog Archives, but she's almost bound to be rejected for inclusion, given my past record of rejected suggestions. You and Svetonio are similar in that respect.

Almost. Svet's volleys of suggestions were not entirely fruitless. Some of them were included.

I see your Bullpucky and raise you a steaming pile of bullsh*t...

big difference between stoner psych prog.. and the hard blues man.  The first is really just an excuse to smoke sh*t and drop in and tune out.. the other is about the business end of life man. 

 It is all about authenticity man. For the whole proggie mindset about music being intellectual is complete bussh*t..  music can stimulate teh brain.. but what it has done since the damn of time is stimulate the soul.. the emotions man. That is what the blues and its brother.. jazz are all about. 

It works both ways.. overly intellectual music something the Europeans excelled at...has never really gained a foothold here in the States for our musical tradition.. in contrast to theirs is not based on music being an creative outlet for the .. higher classes.. the educated....but an outlet for the sh*t upon and left behinds of life man.  Much as overly intellectual music never really caught here or was ever partciularl well done.. as it aint' in our DNA.. the blues.. jazz.. it is part of our musical DNA.. and though Euros may connect the stylistic dots . it is without any kind of empathy if you will.  It is all about emotion.. feel. and that is not just NOT easy to replicate.. it is damn near impossible.

ohhh... and I love you Steve.. but I wouldn't go quite that far...

suffice to say Janis was hand DOWN the greatest female rock vocalist ever..  they all owed a debt to her.. 

I remember reading an interview with Linda R. who was immensely influenced by her.  Not just to be a singer.. but a star.. 

easier said than done in rock..  something notorisouly testorone driven and male dominated.. 

every female rock singer can trace their success back to her..

but her over Aretha.. Babs...or Billie???  oohhh. let's just call her one of the greatest female vocalists of all times. She's earned it.. and even if idiots around here don't recognize it.. those that count.. do recognize it.

my favorite from her..  perhaps the single greatest female rock vocal performance ever and my favorite from her....   untouchable

If all it was in the music was intellectual bullsheets, then we would not even consider anything like it ... and it's weird you saying this and comparing both ... because there was so much improvisation, stoned or otherwise, and saying that one is intellectual and the other isn't is bizarre ... and probably completely out of touch ... for many folks in Germany it was about how the sound felt and you matched up to it, and some folks made music out of the noise, and some did Jimi impressions (early Guru Guru), and others just ripped up the stage (Ulli) and then others, went after new sounds that helped illustrate their imagery ... which has absolutely NOTHING to do with intellectual anything, and is the biggest rap on music there is ... even here ... improvisation is not considered "valid" music, because it is missing the "mind", so to speak!

You don't see a connection between a Klaus Kinki and a Damo ... so you don't know the value of "busking", on the street as opposed to in front of the camera. And you think that singing the blues (Janis is a far out example) is what it is all about, not realizing that the same words, or different words are also "blues" to one's inner mind and body in different ways ... 

I'm glad I quit a lot of dope many years ago ... at the very least I do not have what I think are damaged views of what music, and the arts is supposed to be ... like Edgar Allan Poe's "blues" are not his short stories!

Weird!

^ Because that's what's important in a singer.

;)

I see micky's point albeit I wouldn't call it intellectual vs emotion.  What drives American genres is licks, not just a 'sound'.  You write a kickass lick and then toy with it, you're good to go. Sometimes you don't need to envision an out of the world structure or go to faraway places; you can just stay rooted and grounded and still kick ass.  Notice that American music is so in the pocket a lot of times.  You need both kinds of music, obviously, to complete the picture.  But just on the topic of licks, I know micky said SRV isn't REAL blues but sample this, amazing machine gun riff.  

Many ... and I might start with Guru Guru ... Ax is the next best Jimi there is after Terje Rypdal in many of his great moments.

Guitar works, are not a good point for you, because Europe has music history going back 500/600 years and more and this influence makes for things that are very different, whereas American music had its art wiped out completely, and all that was left in the 20th century was black music, that even the movie studios tried to prevent from coming up by sending their "stars" singing the hits to the stores and make it look like they were "the music".

Thus, a lot of American music, might have a closer relationship to "the blues" than it would a lot of other things, and there is nothing wrong with that ... and it wasn't until after the 1950's that more, and different American music started coming forward, and jazz was at its front, something that also started with black music!

These comparisons, like an European can not do SRV or FZ, or an American can not do an Ax or Uli, or John W (AD2), and many others ... is a dead end ... in most cases the music is so different as to hurt the discussion!

THEY ARE BOTH GREAT ... and for the record I DID SEE SRV on a tour with Robert Cray, and he was phenomenal ... there is no 2nd thought about it! So, don't think I do not appreciate American folks ... there are many of them.

I have heard Ax and I don't hear what you hear.  Don't get me wrong, he is an amazing guitarist, but he doesn't really play the blues.  He's playing around the blues.  Which is nice.  And which is also very European.  

Listen, I am neither American nor European so it's not about making 'strong' or 'weak' points, lol.  Yes, I am aware that European music is much older (as is the music of my own country).  That does not change the fact that blues was and is a very American music and large swathes of the rest of the planet could not escape its influence.   And that kind of blues-based music with lots of licks rather than sophisticated arrangements has its own appeal, is what micky's point was. And I happen to agree.  I love prog dearly, doesn't mean I wouldn't pay to see a great blues guitarist (not that there are many left). 

Sometimes I think the time I saw Buddy Guy in '91 was the very best concert I've ever been to.  

Shortly thereafter, accidentally caught Luther "Guitar Junior" Johnson because I just happened to walk into the right bar while on vacation and he just happened to be playing there that night. My wife and I sat at a small roundtop right up front, not 3 meters from the man while he laid out some killer licks.  

I'm sorry I never got to see Son Seals or Michael Burks, who both expired far too soon.  

Most recently (2018), I got to see Ana Popovic at a local club.  While she skews pretty hard to the rock side of things, somewhere between SRV and Hendrix, she still knows how to bend a string!  Fantastic performance.  Interestingly, it seems to be the women who are keeping great blues guitar alive these days.  Ana Popovic, Dana Fuchs, Samantha Fish, Susan Tedeschi, Joanne Shaw Taylor, Debbie Davies, Deborah Coleman, Carolyn Wonderland....

 

Kate Bush is still the best female vocalist ever though.

 

 

great clip...an absolute fav of mine.. #2 unforunately... and let me retort with #1 ... #6 on my list of blow thy speaker songs ever put to vinyl or silicon..

SRV is a fascinating topic in himself but think you and David hit the head of that nail arleady.. so sticking semi on topic here.

No.. I meant what I said and think (of course haha) that I was spot on. It is not riff based.. it is indeed differentiated from European music on the intellectualism vs. emotinalism continum as I said.  What I had not mentioned was the third leg of the uniquely American musical experience..  country music.  That is the trump card if you will to my argument.  That music is not riff based in the least. but predicated solely in relation to the listener's emotions not their intellect.  It is music that a listener listen to not to be inspired..  or stimulated.. but reinforced.  If you f**king dog got run over.. you don't put a f**king VDGG album on...  you put on some DAC..  your spousal unit run amuck with a coworker or the damn mailman..  you put on some Hank Williams. The same applies to the blues and jazz.. it is all about the emotions the music helps stimulate and reinforce...

Don't know if there is any ONE best female vocalist but if I had to put a name to it TODAY, I would probably say Floor Jansen.  And I would urge everyone who disagrees to have a look at what she did this year on Beste Zangers.  She showed she is not just a run of the mill metal singer but very open to adapt to different genres and diligent enough to execute impeccably.  I changed my opinion a lot after Beste Zangers because I didn't realise her repertoire was so vast either.  

Unfortunately, country is my  blindspot  so if my dog got run over, I would still be far more inclined to listen to Gary wail with voice and guitar on Still Got The Blues rather than country.  That said, the more uptempo (that's a very metal term, by the way ) songs in country do have riffs.  Rockabilly guitar is another topic by itself.  Danny Gatton was an absolute monster.  

Albert Lee is brilliant too. I am sure there are many more; just not acquainted with all of them.

Thanks for the heads up on Firewind.  Have always wondered where to start with Electric Sun, because,yes, the vocals are off putting.  But he was and is an incredible guitarist in the way he could anticipate that neo classical stuff Yngwie & co were going to unleash in the 80s and also wail his heart out on songs like Crying Days or Yellow Raven.

By the way, on the topic of blues, I am sure you would have seen this many times before, but if you haven't, well worth relishing.  Moore and BB King playing Thrill Is Gone.  Just too much blues awesomeness in 9 minutes.

Floor is a great call here.  I was already enamored of her talent based on her work with After Forever and ReVamp.  But when she was able to step into Nightwish, following the departure of Tarja (greatest symphonic metal singer ever), and do so so admirably, well, that was the ultimate testament to her talent.  

We need to realize that to do Symphonic Metal well is much more demanding on a vocalist than standard metal.  Floor absolutely kills it.