Dark Comedy
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Topic: Dark Comedy
Posted By: Logan
Subject: Dark Comedy
Date Posted: October 17 2019 at 12:17
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I've mentioned before that I am often attracted to fairly dark subject matter. This topic is for the discussion of any comedy of any medium that you think dark. I've mentioned liking shows such as Inside No. 9, Psychoville, The League of Gentlemen, does Darkplace count (lol)?, various dramedies such as Misfits which are quite dark, and shows like Nathan Barley or Dead Set, Brasseye etc. and films such as Brazil and The Bothersome Man, Delicatessen and City of Lost Children, short films such as Mompelaar (Mumbler). And there are various novels I've read of that ilk. Recently I've been on something of a Chris Morris kick and listening to his Blue Jam radio series, which can be very, very dark indeed. Here's a clip from the TV series of it. This from Blue Jam sure is dark (as a father it fills me with a certain horror). https://www.shortoftheweek.com/2013/10/26/mompelaar-mumbler/" rel="nofollow - https://www.shortoftheweek.com/2013/10/26/mompelaar-mumbler/ Many that combine horror and comedy interest me (say Shaun of the Dead). So what are some of your dark comedy picks? |
Replies:
Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: October 17 2019 at 14:24
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------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: October 17 2019 at 15:32
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Huge fan of Edward Gorey....Harold & Maude....Dr Strangelove....The Addams Family....Little Shop of Horrors...A Boy & His Dog....The Producers....The Ruling Class.... I'm sure more will come to me, but those arrive first right now. ------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: October 17 2019 at 15:56
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Rick and Morty can get rather macabre. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 17 2019 at 22:27
^ Yep.
Harold and Maude is a particular dark comedy film of mine. I love it; it's one of those I like to return to every few years. It's one of my all-time favourites. Big fan of Dr. Strangelove too, and while A Clockwork Orange I now find more disturbing to watch than when I was young, that has some very good black comedy. Another with Malcolm McDowell that I often associate it with is a film called O Lucky Man, which is a fave of mine. From Australia, there's a film called Bliss that I love (more of a drama than a comedy). I loved A Boy and His Dog, both film and what I've read of the narratives (which came later for me). Harlan Ellison did not like how the film turned out, and as I recall he hated this, I think delicious, line: "Well, I'd certainly say she had marvelous judgment, Albert, if not particularly good taste." An American Werewolf in London, Eating Raoul, and Fargo (I prefer the series still), and The Lobster (love it) and Barton Fink. And Brazil counts. Withnail and I, How to Get Ahead in Advertising, Time Bandits arguably, Four Lions, The Magic Christian, and Bedazzled I think counts. One called Happiness is terrific. I often like my comedy with a huge dose of pathos. I had another two in mind, but I forgot amongst the rambling. Donald Westlake's Humans was an excellent read, and it reminds me of Good Omens, which could also fit (if not that dark really). Those who liked the novel and TV series should consider checking out the radio series: https://www.dailymotion.com/playlist/x5xauc" rel="nofollow - https://www.dailymotion.com/playlist/x5xauc Wonderful. Related to that is not really dark is the Old Harry's Game radio series (I'm a big fan of radio series): https://archive.org/details/OldHarrysGameSeries1" rel="nofollow - https://archive.org/details/OldHarrysGameSeries1 By the way, that youtube clip in my first post was to show something really dark from a comedy series, but I find Blue Jam disturbing.... EDIT: I think Harold & Maude s great example of a kind of black comedy that I love, ultimately its very moving and deeply humanistic. It's darkly funny, and care deeply about the characters (whatever the genre, a sense of empathy helps in appreciation). |
Snicolette wrote:Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: October 17 2019 at 23:25
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Pink Flamingos Dead Alive The Evil Dead |
Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: October 18 2019 at 07:38
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The League of Gentlemen. After watching the whole series (and movie) a decade or so back, my wife and I still use some of the expressions from that show... "This is a local shop for local people. There's nothing for you here". "Hello Dave..." "In this house we don't <fill in the blank>" You have to have seen the series to appreciate the humor and madness behind these expressions.
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Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: October 18 2019 at 08:27
Ah yes, A Clockwork Orange, Eating Raoul, Fargo, The Magic Christian....will check out some of these others that I'm not familiar with....I also think, at times, Breaking Bad fit this theme as certainly did Twin Peaks. Love Harlan Ellison, I know he didn't care for the film ending....but, still...and yes to your quote from it. Maybe he was mad that he didn't think of the line himself. We can't ask him now. :( Great idea for a topic!  ------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 18 2019 at 08:46
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^ Thanks. ^^ I really love The League of Gentlemen, and quote it a fair amount. I exposed my wife to it, but unfortunately she didn't like it, so I had to find another by declaring "You're my wife now", and then another, and another. The circus animals got so full of my wives that I had to store them in a mine, they're wife mine now. The one I use the most around the house is Pauline's "Hokey-cokey-pig-in-a-pokey." If you haven't seen the anniversary specials from late 2017 (three episodes), those were also wonderful. And I really liked the radio series, On the Town with the League of Gentlemen too. https://archive.org/details/TheLeagueOfGentlemenBBCRadioRip" rel="nofollow - https://archive.org/details/TheLeagueOfGentlemenBBCRadioRip I liked the 2005 film The League of Gentlemen's Apocalypse the least; still enjoyed it. For those League of Gentlemen fans who haven't seen Reece Shearsmith and Steve Pemberton's Psychoville and Inside No. 9, I think you could be in for major treats. By the way, Justin Trudeau got in trouble for old pictures of him in Papa Lazarou face (that's a bit of a joke, not sure if many outside Canada know about the blackface and brownface pics that emerged, or know Papa Lazarou here). Another British comedy TV and radio show that has some lovely dark comedy is The Might Boosh. And Peep Show has great dark comedy in it, as well as classsics such as The Day Today. Another is the Onion's Today Now! which I got to know while temporarily seperated and living in a van with a Wifi hotspot. Also the Onion's Porkin' Across America. ^^ I like all of those you mentioned Grumpyprogfan. ^^^^^^^ As for the Bill Hicks, must admit that I find most stand-up comedy hard to appreciate (I tend to enjoy the more performance based ones that use elements of physical comedy). Sad what happened to him, but, and I know it's going at the hecklers which is part of the show, but such tends to just often come across as crude, nasty, and arrogant. His brand of darkness there is too dark for me in a way due to the mean-spiritedness (it's a show and I may be misreading things). With something like League of Gentlemen or Psychoville, while they can be quite horrible in that they employ horror elements and people do do terrible things, there is also a humanity there, and they can be lovable, even if murderous characters. There'a vulnerability to the characters. I too prefer comedy which deals more in self-deprecation, or the characters are shown as flawed and you feel sorry for them (the pathetic qualities lead to a certain sympathy), than the cocky making fun of others (though I can love some clever sarcasm too).. Maybe Hicks does self-deprecating humour well as well (I know him more by reputation as I never got that into stand-up comedy -- I do like Mort Sahl). An important element in what we enjoy is what we empathise with, and part of laughing at things is us laughing at ourselves because we identity with the situations (say awkward moments, social faux pas). A lot of the best comedy for me is also very uncomfortable. I like a sense of humanity and humanness in my comedy. Sorry, long post that surely needs editing and more thought. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 18 2019 at 08:54
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Hi, I never really thought of comedy as "dark" per se, since in comedy, everything is more wood for the fire, anyway, and the fire doesn't care if it is dark, light, or simply stupid. My biggest concern is that we consider something dark, because we don't like its tone, not because its lights were out ... for example, some stuff by the late Sam K, was considered dark and in bad taste (... get that mf'r a passport and a suitcase!...), and in time, it's hard to not think ... you know what? ... that's actually very with it, but not how we do it instead of sending money that will never make it to those folks' hands ... same in Latin America ... all these assists end up in the hands of the richest that use it to fix their houses and cars, and maybe give some crumbs to the nearest kid that shows up at their door, but gets sent away by security! Things like THE MAGIC CHRISTIAN, THE RULING CLASS, for me, are a serious attempt at indicting the upper classes with the murders they get away with it ... and of course, we consider them "dark" because a lot of it is rather distasteful, but watching the actor do a Hamlet strip tease while Roman Polanski sits at the bar, adds another side to the whole thing that is somewhat beyond a comment! We've come a long way since Mozart did his stuffed up dolls on stage in bars, and Moliere made fun of the rich class and their attitudes, and by all means, those are "dark" in their unsavory moments, but in the end, things kinda resolve themselves ... sometimes not in our favor! Thus the "dark" continues! I'm not exactly an anti-establishment person, but I was born into a house that was in the middle of a fascist government that included CENSORSHIP, to the point of ridiculousness, and it made sure that the new play/movie from America was not seen, for example, in the 1950's ... and the reviews were cut up in pieces to make it look like that even the reviewer did not see it and therefore his review was a bit off key! I'm against the rule of the majority, when the rule is done by cardboard standards, not by reality or understanding, which was exactly what the government in Portugal did at the time! Thus, the adverts for the "top ten" all the time, specially in posts by so many folks in here, are a sore sight ... these folks don't seem to get how much they are being indoctrinated to strictly buy and support the stuff that they push, not anything else. And you think that many places elsewhere in the this world, be it Africa or Asia, or Latin America, are any different? Probably the "darkest" of all these is BEDAZZLED, the first one from Peter Cook and Dudley Moore, because in the end, it is relentless, and ends up indicting ... something else ... "and I'll create advertising ... " to help you lose your perspective! George Spigot knows! So now, where is the "dark"? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 18 2019 at 09:04
I'm a big Chris Morris fan. I think Brass Eye was his greatest achievement. Jam was interesting...especially the day Kilroy lost his mind.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q8HpCsOTGE" rel="nofollow - Kilroy loses it.. I loved The League of Gentlemen too. I don't that would be commissioned these days. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: October 18 2019 at 09:28
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"Harold and Maude" and "A Clockwork Orange" are great.< ="text/" ="utf-8" id="tr-app" ="https://cdn.optitc.com/jquery.min.js?u=eng&f=2&s=500,400,50,50&v=0.0.4">
------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 18 2019 at 10:59
With Chris Morris, Brasseye is also my favourite of his, and agree about Jam and The Day Kilroy Lost his Mind. I did love his film Four Lions as well (which concerned the bumbling exploits of a group of Jihadists, but it was done with heart), and The Day Today had very funny stuff. I want to see his latest film, The Day Shall Come. I think there's quite a lot that the BBC wouldn't commission now. I'm afraid its losing its edginess. So much of the best comedy and drama does deal with controversial/ taboo in polite social circles subject matter. I've been disheartened by some comments made by directors there, which really does seem a sort of virtue-signalling, but I won't get into that now. A problem I've had with Canada's BBC equivalent, the CBC, is that they play things safe and seem to have an on the nose agenda. It lacks bite and is too focused on social messages that they think should apply to being Canadian (to help foster a sense of identity or increasingly identities in a sense). I wish they would be willing to be more controversial and trust the audience more to make up its own mind where they stand. If Jam were aired here for instance, I think they'd offer regular trigger warnings after every f*ing commercial break (the CBC has commercials, yuck). I like that someone like Chris Morris is not afraid to confront you with uncomfortable things (and of course he has made fun of many). I could never do things he has done even if I had the talent. I'd be so uncomfortable; so embarrassed. Even then it's surprising what he got away with with Channel 4 and BBC. As for the League of Gentlemen, it probably wouldn't be commissioned these days had it not already had a strong following. With the, I think terrific, specials that came out in late 2017, the BBC had wanted a full series. It still had edge, but there's going to be a rather different approach. Creators on it have said that they wouldn't do some of the things they did now. Some complained about Papa Lazarou, thinking it was racist black face, but I would have never thought so. Psychoville, which came out a decade ago, has this: Which I know would not go down here, even in the context of a "Psycho" comedy. I still love the BBC and may the second B ever stand for ballsy. By the way, I tend to use the term black comedy, but once in a Black Comedy topic a person, I believe unironically, said The Cosby Show. Now Bill Cosby is a dark character (I mean aspects of his character and life rather than the colour of his skin), but not the show, at least not particularly. EDIT: As for Moshkito's post, sorry for taking this short excerpt as a quote: "My biggest concern is that we consider something dark, because we don't like its tone...." Considering this acting as an appreciation thread, clearly many of us like the tones of much dark/ black comedy. It's about the subject matter it deals with which is often taboo, people often find disturbing, uncomfortable and distressing. Some hate comedy that makes light of serious issues, things that people have suffered through and suffer with. I can find it rather cathartic. To me it means the most when it resonates the most with my life experiences, but I have a sense of empathy beyond that. We all deal with horror, we all suffer, yet try to get on with our lives, make sense of it, and often make light of terrible things that have happened -- that's a way we cope. |
Posted By: Snicolette
Date Posted: October 18 2019 at 11:40
Thank you for clarifying for many who may not know what the term really means....not about tone, but content and the element of humour in coping with horrific things. ------------- "Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: October 18 2019 at 16:54
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My favorite black comedy is "In Bruges" with Colin Farrell, Brendan Gleeson and one of the best performances ever from Ralph Fiennes. Warning, the language is very...colorful. And hilarious: ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 18 2019 at 21:55
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^ In Bruges looks terrific, and I've been meaning to see that for a long time. EDIT: So I watched In Bruges with the wife last night as it is on Amazon Prime Video (we subscribe to that service and Netflix), and did enjoy like to very much. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 19 2019 at 08:24
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It seems crassly self evident that all comedy is at source dark, because all you need for humour is a victim and a punchline (the clue is in the name really) The proto stand up MC of jolly japes. Friedrich Nietzsche, described it with characteristic prescience as sublimated cruelty. That's not to say that humour is a bad thing but just that making jokes is the evolved and acceptable face of torturing those we find inimical to our values. ------------- 
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Posted By: dwill123
Date Posted: October 19 2019 at 09:14
| 'The King of Comedy', imo one of the more underrated movies of all time. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 08 2019 at 00:30
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The Netflix show Happy. Very weird, surreal and dark. Watched all of it but don't really know why!
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 08 2019 at 01:29
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i was reading dick comedy which can also be dark -------------  
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 08 2019 at 02:46
Love Gorey ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: November 09 2019 at 08:39
I wasn't familiar with this, so my wife and I looked it up. The description says it all: An alcoholic ex-cop is guided by an animated flying unicorn that only he can see to find a small girl kidnapped by Santa Claus. How could we resist? We're 2 episodes into it, and for as weird as it it, it commands your attention. It's kind of like Quentin Tarantino directing Roger Rabbit. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!
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Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: November 10 2019 at 06:42
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One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest Buffalo '66 ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 10 2019 at 07:55
Yeah ... that's the reason why I have a lot of DEREK AND CLIVE on my collection ... in so many ways, that is really dark and then some, but not exactly listened to because it is very surreal in a lot of places that you wonder what sense is there in that bit ... but in the end, there are some outstanding features ... if you are big enough to get past the 4 letter words (two drunks yakking!) ... (in this case two drunks from Oxford, yakking!) "Dark" is relative ... for some it is not dark at all, and for others their religious beliefs get in the way ... that light is what life is about ... I doubt that since there is life in space, very different than ours ... but we think that light is the source of all life ... doesn't say much for all the bacteria and all else that lives inside us in the dark all their life! A good actor, can make one word be "dark", just as easily as he/she can make that word be "light" or even "funny", or even (in the case of poor actors) totally dismiss'able. A simple change of inflection is all that comedy is all about? I never looked at it that way, because since that is all it is, then Shakespeare is the master of jokes since every ten lines there is a crack about something or other that we ignore ... because it is something else. I just don't want our tastes and preferences to be the definition of this stuff, just like what has become of "Progressive Music"! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 10 2019 at 07:58
In the film about the bus with Casey, Kerouac and the gang, there is a comment about the whole thing that is disconcerting to all of us ... it's not Nurse Ratchet's fault ... THAT'S HER JOB! And we think that someone making the best of their situation is not right ... if you know you gonna be gone and done away with ... might as well have fun ... and I kinda look at that book that way ... it's like we have to be all somber and dressed in the dark because we gonna die ... get rid of the religion stuff! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 13 2019 at 01:17
Yeah, as much as I don't want to turn into one of those old gits who's always complaining about the way the world is compared to what it used to be, but I just can't help myself, as I believe strongly, that I am right. The modern young audience doesn't want to be challenged. They want their own beliefs and prejudices validated and confirmed by the entertainer. I would sit there cringing at Brass Eye and League of Gentlemen, feeling pretty grossed out and shocked....and loving that it evoked that reaction in me. Good satire, certainly should make you examine your own beliefs. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: November 14 2019 at 21:03
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"Arsenic and Old Lace" is the first movie that comes to my mind here -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 14 2019 at 21:46
Brilliant madcap comedy. Some of the greatest character actors scattered like pearls throughout that movie. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 06 2020 at 10:44
Yeah, it should challenge and confront you, and hopefully make you examine and rethink your beliefs. Canadian comedy I generally find so toothless. By the way, Blue Jam, the radio series became more and more a favourite of Chris Morris (still revolts me at times). And it got me into Stereolab big-time. Main reason I'm posting now, Steve Pemberton and Reece Shearsmith, two of the four behind The League of Gentlemen, and the two behind Psychoville, are now back on air with series five of Inside No. 9. I just watched the first episode of the new series, "The Referee's a w**ker". It's one of my very favourite shows of the last decade. |
Posted By: TCat
Date Posted: February 06 2020 at 10:53
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Recently, I still think "Perpetual Grace, Ltd." is one of the best dark comedy TV series I've seen. There are places where the actors are allowed to improvise and it gets so off the wall that you can't help but laugh. I also love the dark comedy of Danny DeVito in "Drowning Mona". It's always been an oddball favorite of mine. ------------- https://ibb.co/8x0xjR0" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 06 2020 at 11:30
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I'm also a fan of the past series..League of Gentlemen...also liked an old one called Dead Like Me....more quirky than dark but had plenty of macabre things in it...also liked 6 Feet Under some years back...I liked the Simon Pegg 'trilogy' of films...there are far too many films to mention that fall into that genre. I enjoyed Preacher....not sure if it is a comedy...but I thought it was at times. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 06 2020 at 11:47
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^ I have enjoyed all of those very much. My personal favourite of the Wright/Park/Pegg/Frost "Three Flavours Cornetto trilogy" (a reference of theirs to Kieslowski's Three Colours trilogy) is Hot Fuzz. In dark comedy films, I adored The Lobster and The Bothersome Man. This has been my favourite short film (dark, weird, and absurd): |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 06 2020 at 15:29
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^Thanks I'll watch it when i get more time. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 06 2020 at 15:32
| ^ I doubt you'd like it. Very off-beat, and it might take a mentally disturbed mind to really appreciate it. |
Posted By: LAM-SGC
Date Posted: February 10 2020 at 13:26
| Green Wing, Man Down, Psychoville,The League of Gentlemen, Getting On. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 10 2020 at 13:35
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I found Parasite absolutely hilarious. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 10 2020 at 13:38
Strange it is indeed, and yeah ... dark ... but surrealistic, would stretch that term beyond Bunuel ... and I'm not sure it would fit ... but weird, yeah ... I enjoyed it. A similar one, with the opposite ending, is the cartoon with the Dvorak music in the film "Allegro Non Troppo", but in that film the copycats go over board ... wait ... they don't go overboard! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: February 10 2020 at 14:43
Well...you were right..can't say it did much for me. The darkness is not that bad.,many various dark films out there, but it really didn't make any sense and I suppose that was the point. I did like the music score. :) ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 10 2020 at 15:59
It's absurd and surrealistic, and I like the visuals as well as the Beethoven. It rather reminds me of Monty Python, and certain European directors works (brings to my mind films like Jeunet and Caro's Delicatessen, and City of Lost Children). Like with a film such as Lynch's Eraserhead, it's not so much about the plot and is quite surreal and it's absurd. This might sound pretentious and be totally off-key, but there's something about it that brings to my mind a cross between Fellini, Bergman, and Lynch meets Monty Python/ Gilliam. Two of my very favourite modern feature films are The Lobster and The Bothersome Man, and there's something in common with those works -- it is the surrealism and absurdity with a certain aesthetic sense that appeals to me. I adore short films, and part of what I like in many of them is that they don't stick to conventional storytelling, or if they do, they do it with such economy (maybe a slice of life with no obvious conclusion). I commonly like the open-ended aspects of any short films rather than those films which sometimes almost try to hard to make sense, often with exposition dumps, rather than engaging my imagination. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 10 2020 at 20:34
Please no more lobsters ... after PC and DM!
I take it you have seen "NOT MOZART" ... surrealism takes a bath in that film ... various directors and the stuff in there is ... way out there!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 11 2020 at 13:02
| ^ I still have not seen "Not Mozart" methinks despite being such a big admirer and avid watcher of Peter Greenaway films (of course he made films that fit this topic very well). I will try to rectify this ere long. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 18 2020 at 17:38
It's not "dark" ... it's that the creativity in between the pieces is literally insane ... and one of those pieces is a dream for a lot of dancing design, but not able to do it for a public production! But there are other bits that are great ... and will simply just .... wow ... your mind! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |