I would say that sabotage starts out as a thrash album, Hole in the sky is one of there harder edge songs for sure, but the rest of the album, including the great "The Writ" has many prog elements including layering, reverb many different changes in each song, lyrics, and studio tricks along with a very trippy production that makes it seem to me anyway as very prog leaning. I see SBS as a more straightforward hard rock album IMO. Maybe lyrically SBS has some prog in it but I see that album as a precursor to what was happening later in the decade with VH and NWOBHM

First thrash album? No, but maybe Symptom of the Universe could be proto-thrash. 

(but so is Queen's Stone Cold Crazy )

it either is or isn't, symptom and Hole are not thrash but harder metal, inspiring thrash musicians maybe, but pigeon holing BS into any tight genre is useless, probably, but prog does not seem to be a tight genre, very inclusive

Interesting. Now I want to spin it again. It's been a while, so thanks for the reminder.

I've never heard anyone dissing or dismissing the album because of the cover (but then again BS album covers are not great or good, attractive, interesting, anyway). 

It's also quite loved and appreciated, I've rarely seen or heard complaining (on the music that is) either.  

I think every album has at least one sort of prog offering

BS-Behind the wall of sleep/sleeping village

Paranoid-War Pigs/ hand of doom

MOR-Into the void (heard live by the all original members at "99" ozzfest)

Vol. 4 -Side 2

SBS, Spiral architect

Sabotage- Writ/megalomania

Whamdaddy wrote: I actually love the cover, total period piece for the 70's, Sabbath covers are very Sabbath: black, dark, chauvinistic, to the point, except of course TE which every thing about that album is terrible

 

Disagree. Another great Sabbath album.

As usual, Geezer is in fine form.

Yep.  There's some good songs on TE.  Perhaps it's uneven album.  

For my tastes, and I have several BS albums, the band is not progressive. Yes, it does have bits and pieces of material here and there that makes it interesting, but all in all, it is NOT a progressive band, and it's character in concert pretty much made it clear ... this was a rock band, loud and louder and more often than not it seemed like it was there to support Ozzy, although the show I saw at the Hollywood Paladium, he was so far out of it, that you might as well be supporting the lights and the technicians ... Ozzy sounded horrible and sang even worse!

The worst progressive, or prog, concert I have ever seen, was NEVER EVER that bad, and completely out of character with the material on hand, although I'm pretty sure that someone will immediately mention one or two of them ... but just the thought of KC screwing up on stage and not being good ... is scary ... very scary, but as many live albums and shows are around, you can't really say it is that bad.

In the days of the bootlegs, the BS ones, were not in the top 10 at all ... more like the bottom 10 because the band was not very well known for doing a great concert at all!

Probably deserves some prize for most misleading thread title!

Anyway my two cents. Digressing slightly , but no one talks about Bill Ward although he was probably one of the greatest drummers of the seventies and very underrated much like Brian Downey was in Thin Lizzy. Sabbath had many obvious 'proggy' moments and always felt more to me like a prog band than many of their contemporaries such as Led Zep and Deep Purple. Out of the industrial grind of Birmingham they created something uniquely their own and that is basically what being 'progressive' is imo.

Great post, Richard. Big fan of Ward and Downey. 

Blacksword wrote: I'm going to put my balls on the line here, and say I would actually rather listen to both Dio fronted albums than any of the Ozzy albums, not including Sabotage...

 

Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules and Dehumanizer are three of my favorite Sabbath albums. Dio's my favorite vocalist, so that also makes him my favorite Sabbath vocalist. 

I never considered my Moody Blues, Traffic,  or Procol Harum lp's as prog either. 

I'm getting old...I just realized the reference was to Sabotage,,, and not the first Sabbath lp....

but at any rate I have never thought of Sabbath as 'proggy'...though there are songs here and there that might fit the bill.

I don't think so ... however, when compared to the "metal" styled bands from the 70's, there was an obvious attempt in the past 20 plus years for many very good musicians to put something together with "metal", that involved some serious musicianship ... which, some would consider a threat to "progressive" or even "prog", and this is where the definitions are fan driven and have nothing to do with the music at all ... 

In my book, this is where a website like ours has a way to blend and distort (ohhh what we would do without all that distortion in a band!) a lot of music, to the point of it all be completely meaningless, and worst of all, no one gives a cahoot about its definition, except that kid that just posted he was looking for some bs prog of some sort, specially for a band, whose greatest honor was being loud and obnoxious on the stage! Not that they did not do one or two good things, but that's like saying the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan, didn't either!

I don't think BS belongs in a "progressive", or "prog" discussion, and think that its inclusion in a place like that is more likely to break apart the definitions of the genre, that were intended for the music ... not the radio and song folks that did not have the talent to write something more concise. BB was more about the RIFF and its loudness than it was about a whole lot more, including its spiritual, or manic concepts.

It was all more about advertising and attention, than it was about the music! Look at the cover, for goon's sakes ... clever and cool ... a lot more than what the music is all about! Ohh, excuse me ... one song fits a "prog" this or that, except in those days, that description DID NOT EXIST!

WOW .... the first time I hear a statement like that in a 'Prog' community.  Yours really were ....BIG points!

You know, when early 70's rock bands are concerned, there are so many people on these communities whose favourites skillfully used BLUES as their foremost influence on their music. And that's okay, but hell those fans inexorably miss the point when talking about Sabbath music, not to say others who pigeonhole BS as being "Heavy Metal" or "loud" or whatever else, these people really don't get what they came for in the early 70's music scene.....

And Led Zeppelin is a perfect case in point, their undoubtedly strong and exciting beat have Bonham's powerful and prominent drumming as one essential and invariably great feature of theirs. However, there are many instances where he would never fit in Sabbath's music. And I bet you know why, Ward is symply peerless in terms of what he's able to lock into and nail, and what NOT to play, damn perfectly fitting into Sabbath's dynamics and unique musical vocabulary. 

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yes and also one of the reasons I have an issue with Dark Side of The Moon - that blues thing that so many musicians fall back on when it suits them. When I got into prog into the seventies , the keyboard dominated sound really made an impact with me. I didn't want to hear yet another heavy rock band doing a blues riff. I have also mentioned in other discussions how important I believe Iron Maiden were ( and still are). It's all about creating something that stands out at the end of day. For this reason I just can't get on board with Moshkito's point about 'loudness'. I mean ELP were often considered to be 'heavy metal' because they were as loud as any metal band and enjoyed being so!

 

I'm not sure about that ... I think that is a temporary thing until folks get tired of it, and the "sound" does not fit anything anymore.

You and I, and anybody here, do not go to listen to Beethoven or Tchaikovsky, because they are "romantic", and belong to that period. We go listen to it, for something different and because it is nice and well written and a very enjoyable listen!

The same for rock music and these slight definitions ... they will long be forgotten, because the majority of folks, or fans, do not study music, or take an easy (and fun!!!!) course on the history of music! And, if we had to find a "reason" it would be that they do not "sound" like the stuff these same folks like!

I don't listen to Bach, Handel or Albinoni because they are "baroque" ... I listen to them in the same vein that I can listen to a jazz quartet do their version of "chamber music", which is just about the same thing ... but because one is amplified and the other sounds like total poop, none of these folks will listen to it, and make a fair evaluation of the history of music ... so their comment and enjoyment makes a lot more sense than simple ... Preference. Same thing for Mozart ... he fits in a category that kinda defies categories, and just about has one for himself, and the list of other composers at the time? You and I probably can't name them in one finger and Salieri doesn't count as a true composer! He was a note taker, and more than likely stole a lot of music!

But, yeah, BS has some "proggy moments" ... so does almost every band that we mention here. But a band like BS, will get a better understanding and appreciation, than someone like The Edgar Broughton Band, that was far more progressive, experimental, and in lyrics ... totally with it ... though we think that BS's lyrics are more valuable or important because we have the album, and most folks here won't even sit through OORA or anything else to realize what is there in the first place ... and wow ... look at the time it was done!

BS, rode the coat tails of American FM radio ... plain and simple. In LA, NY, and SF, the FM stations loved playing these things, and loud ... and it got folks to enjoy them (and I do!!!!) ... but when setup next to the real names in PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, I'm sorry ... I don't think that we should even be having that discussion.

.

Right!

Just like saying that everything that came before was crap!

It wasn't!

And for your record, I have been at this "progressive" thing since 1967/1968 or 1969 ... and while I do not consider myself one of the exponents of the music, I was there with all of them, and was playing YES, and ELP, when people were going ... what?

I don't specialize in classical music ... but your point is like saying that all of classical music is crap, and in that vein, I'm afraid you are not correct at all, and your view is quite uneducated ... not that it matters since your point of view comes from "fame", and "preference" and has nothing to do with MUSIC and its history at all! Even rock music!

academic music discussion = discussion about academic music (which I alluded as being made by reviewers and critics.)

And "educated" criticisms on music (like those of yours) happen not only today but has happened along the whole music history.

Now please, do me a favor, do NOT direct your BS to me one more time. Thanks

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Sabotage  thrash? No. There are far too many interesting pieces; I find a lot of thrrash to be building solos based on other rock solos which are in turn based on earlier rock solos. No wonder Lars Ulrich didn't want solos on St Anger. Mind you they would have alleviated the tedium.

The best rock and prog rock is built based on other music, not necessarily other rock music. The jazz influence is there. And the mind set of using harmony to push melody give Ozzy a strong basis for his weak but effective vocal. As well as the multi tracked guitars. And what thrash band are going to go through a complex series of riffs only to break into a happy and cheerful sound (Thrill of It All)? As usual Sabbath have a lot of pieces making up a dense sound (Megalomania and The Writ). They have a choir on Supertzar. Jazz coda in Symptom, very hard rocking and riffy earlier on. Worst moment is Ozzy's super-flat monotone on AM I Going Insane (Radio). All in all a very good album.

FM radio in LA at the time would beg to differ I think ... the two big stations played all the big names (no GG or VDGG or PFM), but the other 2 slightly lesser stations were playing a lot of these bands to augment the rest of the bigger band's material. The two big ones had a really hard time playing a 20 minute piece, for commercial reasons ... (I think it was 9 minutes of commercials per hour at the time per FCC) ... thus, you could hear once in your lifetime TARKUS get played ... if at all!

The "start" was nebulous at best. Even KC was not as well known and it had been around, although it was making the station cool if they played 20th Century Schizoid Man ... and then followed it up with Bob Dylan or Willie Nelson, so the station would not "alienate" their listeners! Even PF had to be followed by a top ten song ... 

BS was a part of the early material that those stations loved to play ... because the low register of the bass and drums helped make the sound "heavier" than it really was. BUT, it gave the listing a nice touch, and I (personally) did not mind it at all ... but, in the end, your sequencing/segue of the material comes off rather weird and off kilter, because of it, unless you have a couple of heavier metal type bands at the time, and you ... didn't ... and then BS would be followed by Moody Blues and the audience switched gears to another station!

We don't consider Kanye West "progressive" because he does a lot of sampling. Thus, just having a "sample" of bits and pieces of material that is a part of a lot of "progressive music" ... is not a good reason to consider the album/music as "progressive" ... and I would like to see us start learning to make that distinction ... because we're really confusing the issues at hand, and destroying the idea of "progressive" music. BS is not a progressive band ... it is a very good hard rock band, and probably one of the first heavy duty "metal" bands, although many others were doing it in NY and LA ... that you and I will never know! Like Iggy Pop and his band were not metal and thrash! But it was exactly suited to the FM dial in the LA area, I don't think, for commercial reasons.

I wish that we could have a serious and complete interview with Jim Ladd on these things ... unless he has become just a star kisser and nothing else, and has forgotten his roots! He probably could exemplify a good listing to give us a better idea of some of these things ... but I doubt that he, and others, ever considered BS "progressive".

Ohhh, excuse me ... you got a t-shirt ... that means you are progressive! 

from what I gather US radio was a lot more responsive to progressive rock although we had Radio Caroline (offshore pirate radio) doing a sterling job and supporting prog rock right through the seventies and even a bit beyond until it literally sunk! (btw there is a film called The Boat That Rocked that starring the late great Philip Seymour Hoffman based only very loosely on Radio Caroline but good fun to watch)

As far as legal radio you had John Peel who was supportive of a lot of the more 'out there' prog artists such as Captain Beefheart. You would probably have got on with him! Auntie Beeb didn't catch up until 1973 when the noted Australian broadcaster Alan 'Fluff' Freeman was given his own 2 hour slot on a Saturday afternoon to play whatever he liked and generally he played ELP, Yes , Floyd etc. John Peel was very disparaging despite his earlier support for the genre and described Freeman as the man who discovered ELP when they were millionaires and turned them into multi millionaires. Quite a funny comment  although I'm not it was really true!

Good movie and I reviewed it ... although since I was there for most of it, the only part missing for me would be the really early years in the mid 60's ... did they play ... I wanna be David Watts? ... instead of some other pop'y crap?

I was aware of pirate radio, though through my friend Guy Guden, who went on the air in 1974 in Santa Barbara with "SPACE PIRATE RADIO" and stayed there for more than 20 years, almost 25, and i think that he may be thinking about coming around again ... we really need his ability to show new music ... pretty much every day!

richardh wrote: ... As far as legal radio you had John Peel who was supportive of a lot of the more 'out there' prog artists such as Captain Beefheart.  ...

I think that KPFK (the famous/infamous station also responsible for THE FIRESIGN THEATER), and a few of the college stations ... remember that UCLA and USC were huge universities and both had a lot of courses in radio, tv and film. And a lot of progressive was, likely, played there, although I could not personally tell you that was the case, but if Santa Barbara did, you know those did an hour and a half away! There were a couple of other stations that helped make Nektar, Genesis, Golden Earring, Gentle Giant, Supertramp, and other bands really big ... way before the two big stations played them. I'm not sure that two big stations played GG and GENESIS at all until after PG had already left for GENESIS, when it became a big hit story.

Frank Zappa and even Beefheart is the greatest oddball story of all ... they did NOT get played on the air much, although I would imagine they were fun to play in most college radio because of all the fun stuff in it ... until OVERNIGHT SENSATION when all of a sudden Frank Zappa was PERFECT for the FM radio dial, and to send the FCC a big finger because they were paying old ladies to listen to all rock stations and file complaints about how many four letter words they used in the day, up to and including the words in songs!

And yet, FZ was selling a nice amount, although I think that OS sold as much as his entire catalog in one week more than likely!

richardh wrote: ... You would probably have got on with him! Auntie Beeb didn't catch up until 1973 when the noted Australian broadcaster Alan 'Fluff' Freeman was given his own 2 hour slot on a Saturday afternoon to play whatever he liked and generally he played ELP, Yes , Floyd etc. John Peel was very disparaging despite his earlier support for the genre and described Freeman as the man who discovered ELP when they were millionaires and turned them into multi millionaires. Quite a funny comment  although I'm not it was really true!

The great big sell off of all the "independent" FM stations did not happen until the last part of the 70's and it pretty much stopped the flow of a lot of new music. Space Pirate Radio was lucky, but then Guy's singular vision was not a 7 day affair, it was a Sunday Night affair, and I don't think that the station minded specially when a very nice article about it showed up on the LA TIMES one day ... many folks at that station did not like Guy, but he got the applause that many of them could not including at least one of the folks that had come from the SF area's biggest rock stations in the early 70's (KSAN) ... a big name ... but he was not exactly a progressive player at all, although he paid some attention to what everyone on the station was playing!

I do wish Guy would write a lot of this stuff down ... but his blog in many ways had a lot of that history ... 

....

There is one other person that also featured at the time in LA that could tell us a lot more about the music and in his case a wee bit more about the economic side of things ... Archie Patterson (EUROCK), I believe was a part of the early distribution of the LP's in the LA area and later moved north to Portland. And he would have a good history, as I think he was connected to one of the first import companies for LP's in America ... JEM Records ... but getting a hold of Archie and putting together something for PA, is not likely to be something of value to its members that are way more attuned to the top ten of it all, than they are the history that CREATED this music in the first place ... and one person even just wrote that he thinks all that history is crap ... I guess for him all the arts are crap ... and never EVER relate to life at all ... it's all top ten for him, even 150 years ago!