Close To The Edge (Yes): Form and Substance
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Topic: Close To The Edge (Yes): Form and Substance
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Subject: Close To The Edge (Yes): Form and Substance
Date Posted: March 15 2019 at 15:14
Close To The Edge: Album number one, here in PA. It includes three songs: Close To The Edge (side A), And You And I, and Siberian Khatru (side B).
Close To The Edge, the song: Everybody here knows this suite very well... But is it a real suite? How is his structure?After having heard this suite for many years, here's to you my evaluation.
Close To
The Edge (18:42) begins with country noises and a carpet of keyboards that
gradually increases the volume, then comes an instrumental intro guided by
Howe's guitar, which works on two lines: one does the solo, the other an underlying
phrasing at great speed, which in fact marks a faster pace than that of
Bruford's drums, which he prefers, with his creative jazzy style, not to beat
too much on the snare drum, but works the rhythm at the hips. Meanwhile, Squire
throws slashes with his mixed bass very high. The impression is therefore of
listening to a polyrhythmic piece, without true melody, very well chiselled,
refined, sophisticated, produced by the virtuosity of the musicians, which
lasts about two and a half minutes, when Anderson's singing arrives to signal
that it is time to start with the serious part, the storytelling.
It is
always Howe's guitar that leads, this time painting the melody, flanked by
Squire's bass. The melody continues for a minute (up to about 3:50), then the
rhythm stops and, punctuated by Bruford's drums, begins the hyperspeed rhythm
that characterizes the strophes of this long song. This time the keyboards of
Wakeman arrive to support Howe's guitar, and together with Bruford's drums they
beat the rhythm, while Squire produces some turns of bass to make it more
lively. Anderson's singing begins, with its glacial timbre, and the very high,
contralto tone, which somehow transcends the rock music in the background,
turns off the heat like covering it with a white, pure, celestial liquid, and
this it is the contradiction of Yes, well-marked by the critic Scaruffi: the
romantic, warm, sentimental rock base is accompanied by the vocals of Anderson,
cold, celestial, like icy water that extinguishes the fire. Therefore, a
discrepancy is created, a conjunction of opposites, which produces a
conflicting result, because Anderson's voice would be more suitable for slower,
fluid, rarefied atmospheres of air or water, such as some kraut rock music
(Hosianna Mantra) or some Canterbury (Wyatt) or the more recent post-rock.
Instead this voice is associated with a melodic rock music, with a good rhythm,
which tends to act more on a corporal than an astral level. All this produces
conflict but also fascination, leaving in the music of Yes something that
clashes, conflicts, but that makes it at the same time more fascinating, more
stratified, less univocal, less simple, because it moves simultaneously in two
opposite directions. It is clear that Anderson's
voice really characterizes the music of Yes and not everyone likes it. The fact
that it goes on another level with respect to the music, combined with its
super-high tone, almost falsetto, it could irritate or tire many listeners.
Personally it took me several years to get used to Anderson's vocals, since I come from the
classic (heartland) rock. I know that many lovers of classic rock do not
tolerate Yes more for the voice of Anderson
than for their song, convoluted and full of virtuosic instrumental pieces.
But ...
Let's go back to the song! The singing arrives: strophe, second strophe and
immediately the chorus that then fades into a short solo by Howe that connects it to the bridge, at a more relaxed pace, then again comes the refrain, which
in the final salt of tone touch a solemn epic climax ("I Get Up, I Get
Down").
This
structure, in fact an easy-listening melodic beat song, represents the backbone
of everything in Close To The Edge.
A piece of
connection follows where Squire's bass is in evidence, then the keyboards report
to the main melody: strophe, second strophe, chorus. All played with a different
rhythm by Bruford and with greater use of the bass. In the refrain, more
Wakeman's keyboards begins to be heard. Then bridge (where Howe's guitar feels
good and there is an intermittent super high-pitched sound, I don't know if it's still
produced by Howe or by Wakeman), then new chorus, which ends when we're at 8
minutes.
Following
is a piece centered on low tones that introduce us to the instrumental break
dominated by Wakeman. The music slows down, the rhythm section disappears, the
song is deconstructed, leaving only abstract landscapes dominated by keyboards.
It seems to be in a cold cave and in fact you can hear the sound of drops
falling. Wakeman combines the sound of the synthesizer and comes the singing of
Anderson, in a
doubled voice, at ease in this ethereal atmosphere. He starts again from the
bridge, sung with slow rhythm, alternating with choirs of the chorus. This time
Anderson's singing is intimate, confidential, and alternate to the choirs: my
opinion is in this context that gives the best of himself, when his singing is
confidential, and does not stand on the high notes ... or alternatively, when
it grows on the high notes, if it is flanked by a melodic musical crescendo,
and it's just happening now: the vocals "I Get Up, I Get Down, I Get Up" push the music to its peak,
a marvelous epic, majestic, solemn climax after the long
bridge / chorus; the voice rises in tone, and then the Wakeman church
organ follow the vocals, and it sounds perfect for this musical juncture. We are a little longer than 12
minutes, and finally the song touches one of the highest peak of quality in the entire Yes's
discography. Still Anderson,
singing: "I Get Up, I Get Down", he leads the organ to lower notes, and
after just over 14 minutes, the rhythm of the melody returns, with Bruford
distinguishing it again from jazz preciousness.
The
keyboards come back, and finally the singing starts again, on the hyperspeed
rhythm with which it started the song: strophe, second strophe, bridge this
time before the chorus, and finally again: "I Get Up, I Get Down",
which closes in fading returning to the initial country noises.
Close To
The Edge, in my opinion, is not a real suite. It is a song strophe-chorus
dilated to no end, which repeats the chorus (refrain) 6 times in total. Yes
have created a new song format, they take a commercial easy-listening song with
a strophe-refrain-bridge-refrain structure and then they dilate it, speed it
up, slow it down, accompany it with changes of rhythm and arrangement, support
it with instrumental digressions and get to almost 20 minutes: and here’s to
you a beat song disguised as a classical suite. The (high-class) operation unites a simple
substance: an easily accessible music, to a complex form: its clothing with a
high quotient of virtuosity, refined arrangement, polyrhythmic instrumental
pieces.
And now, if you want, free discussion.
------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
|
Replies:
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: March 15 2019 at 17:31
As a massive yes fan, Chris Squire fan, and CTTE fan boi...
...I agree completely with your assertion. CTTE is not a a suite. I can't say I really personally care, however. Total Mass Retain, for the time, has such a solid and free grooving bass line. That section of song is extremely underrated in combination with Anderson's vocal/lyrical delivery. Yes definitely created a new song format as you said.
-------------
"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
|
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 15 2019 at 18:48
Very good analysis of the music. I used to worship this album back in the day (late-80’s....) but not as much now. I think the first few minutes of the title track sounds like a train-wreck. I dunno what happened to me
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 15 2019 at 19:47
Where Close to the Edge' becomes unique is that it does not exploit any of the structural
tricks and compositional conceits used by its contemporaries. Where Emerson would assimilate
classical sources and themes into his own creations and Genesis would segue shorter song and
instrumental fragments into a pseudo suite, 'Yes' dispense with either approach entirely. Close
to the Edge's title track is a pop song, yes, one mother of a long one to be sure, but still a
pop song for all that. Don't let the 'P' word cause your heckles to rise here, as I mean 'popular
music song' and not in any pejorative sense. Furthermore: There are no traces of classical symphonic writing to be found.(Which often explains their
'symphonic prog' label stubbornly refusing to adhere to the bottle)
Jazz and blues vocabulary are absent.
Riff based composition is nowhere to be seen. These are observations, not criticisms as there is much to admire and cherish on this very fine
album but I do think it is long overdue some sort of critical revision as for way too long
CTTE has become akin to prog's (white) elephant in the room.
-------------
|
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 15 2019 at 20:28
Close to the Edge a pop song? Hah. I guess all the songs on dark side of the moon and wish you were here are pop songs too. :D Not to mention all PG era Genesis songs. If CTTE is a pop song then it doesn't sound like any pop song I've ever heard not to mention the fact it's maybe just a little bit too long to be a standard pop song.
|
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: March 16 2019 at 02:14
ExittheLemming wrote:
Where Close to the Edge' becomes unique is that it does not exploit any of the structural
tricks and compositional conceits used by its contemporaries. Where Emerson would assimilate
classical sources and themes into his own creations and Genesis would segue shorter song and
instrumental fragments into a pseudo suite, 'Yes' dispense with either approach entirely. Close
to the Edge's title track is a pop song, yes, one mother of a long one to be sure, but still a
pop song for all that. Don't let the 'P' word cause your heckles to rise here, as I mean 'popular
music song' and not in any pejorative sense.Furthermore: There are no traces of classical symphonic writing to be found.(Which often explains their
'symphonic prog' label stubbornly refusing to adhere to the bottle)
Jazz and blues vocabulary are absent.
Riff based composition is nowhere to be seen. These are observations, not criticisms as there is much to admire and cherish on this very fine
album but I do think it is long overdue some sort of critical revision as for way too long
CTTE has become akin to prog's (white) elephant in the room. |
Exactly. It's a pop song, but it's not really "pop" per say. One of the best, most amazing things about Yes, is, they really did have their own style, sound, and approach to composition. CTTE, even with a critical observation, continues to reveal more and more epic-ness to me over time (very few albums do this).
-------------
"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
|
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: March 16 2019 at 04:28
^The substance is a (good) pop song. The form is a superb vortuosistic and extremely well arranged suite, with moments of great pathos and moments of sophisticated polyrhythmic rhythm.
------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 16 2019 at 05:28
^Agreed. Many on PA just seem to suffer from an irrational fear of those musical elements their Prog heroes happily acknowledge as being taken/inspired from pop music: Popphobia?
(Catchiness is only bad if it's a disease...)
-------------
|
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 16 2019 at 09:48
I really don't get how it's a pop song. I haven't studied music composition or music theory so maybe you guys know and understand something I don't but I don't hear verse chorus verse in the song structure and I don't hear anything that would make it pop. Plus, how many other 20 minute pop songs can you think of? If it really is a pop song then does that mean "dogs," "echoes," other long PF songs and "supper's ready" are pop songs? What about thick as a brick?
|
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: March 16 2019 at 10:46
Interesting... is there a 3:30 version of the essential pop song bits around? I think I half agree with the analysis... or maybe 75%. Chances are that condensed to 3:30 it wouldn't work that well, the basic melody is nice once in a while but would probably get on my nerves if it and the chorus would make the whole song. But then, I'm not sure, would really like to hear this to find out. What I do think they got right here is that the different parts, as different as they are, make a pretty coherent whole and there are themes and motifs that connect it all. Yes, this is based on a melody and chorus that are quite accessible and straight, but elements to shake things up are woven in at any time. They never really leave the "straight song", yet they subvert it from beginning to end.
That said I have to admit I hardly ever listen to the studio album, because compared to the versions on Yessongs all songs sound quite lame and constructed to me.
|
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 16 2019 at 12:11
Fantastic album....perhaps my favorite by them though the Yes album and Fragile are damn near as good imho......but I'm not sure I would place it as number one of all time on the prog rock list here at PA though obviously the votes are there. Regarding what should be no. 1....imho that should probably rotate from month to month since there are so many excellent bands and albums. I would have a hard time deciding what album I would place at no 1 on any given day.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
|
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 16 2019 at 15:20
Lewian wrote:
Interesting... is there a 3:30 version of the essential pop song bits around? I think I half agree with the analysis... or maybe 75%. Chances are that condensed to 3:30 it wouldn't work that well, the basic melody is nice once in a while but would probably get on my nerves if it and the chorus would make the whole song. But then, I'm not sure, would really like to hear this to find out. What I do think they got right here is that the different parts, as different as they are, make a pretty coherent whole and there are themes and motifs that connect it all. Yes, this is based on a melody and chorus that are quite accessible and straight, but elements to shake things up are woven in at any time. They never really leave the "straight song", yet they subvert it from beginning to end.
That said I have to admit I hardly ever listen to the studio album, because compared to the versions on Yessongs all songs sound quite lame and constructed to me.
| Damn straight !! Yessongs is beyond incredible. What a whopping Live document. And the mind-blowing Roger Dean artworks to boot.
|
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 16 2019 at 17:04
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Close To The Edge: Album number one, here in PA. It includes three songs: Close To The Edge (side A), And You And I, and Siberian Khatru (side B).
Close To The Edge, the song: Everybody here knows this suite very well... But is it a real suite? How is his structure?After having heard this suite for many years, here's to you my evaluation.
Close To
The Edge (18:42) begins with country noises and a carpet of keyboards that
gradually increases the volume, then comes an instrumental intro guided by
Howe's guitar, which works on two lines: one does the solo, the other an underlying
phrasing at great speed, which in fact marks a faster pace than that of
Bruford's drums, which he prefers, with his creative jazzy style, not to beat
too much on the snare drum, but works the rhythm at the hips. Meanwhile, Squire
throws slashes with his mixed bass very high. The impression is therefore of
listening to a polyrhythmic piece, without true melody, very well chiselled,
refined, sophisticated, produced by the virtuosity of the musicians, which
lasts about two and a half minutes, when Anderson's singing arrives to signal
that it is time to start with the serious part, the storytelling.
It is
always Howe's guitar that leads, this time painting the melody, flanked by
Squire's bass. The melody continues for a minute (up to about 3:50), then the
rhythm stops and, punctuated by Bruford's drums, begins the hyperspeed rhythm
that characterizes the strophes of this long song. This time the keyboards of
Wakeman arrive to support Howe's guitar, and together with Bruford's drums they
beat the rhythm, while Squire produces some turns of bass to make it more
lively. Anderson's singing begins, with its glacial timbre, and the very high,
contralto tone, which somehow transcends the rock music in the background,
turns off the heat like covering it with a white, pure, celestial liquid, and
this it is the contradiction of Yes, well-marked by the critic Scaruffi: the
romantic, warm, sentimental rock base is accompanied by the vocals of Anderson,
cold, celestial, like icy water that extinguishes the fire. Therefore, a
discrepancy is created, a conjunction of opposites, which produces a
conflicting result, because Anderson's voice would be more suitable for slower,
fluid, rarefied atmospheres of air or water, such as some kraut rock music
(Hosianna Mantra) or some Canterbury (Wyatt) or the more recent post-rock.
Instead this voice is associated with a melodic rock music, with a good rhythm,
which tends to act more on a corporal than an astral level. All this produces
conflict but also fascination, leaving in the music of Yes something that
clashes, conflicts, but that makes it at the same time more fascinating, more
stratified, less univocal, less simple, because it moves simultaneously in two
opposite directions. It is clear that Anderson's
voice really characterizes the music of Yes and not everyone likes it. The fact
that it goes on another level with respect to the music, combined with its
super-high tone, almost falsetto, it could irritate or tire many listeners.
Personally it took me several years to get used to Anderson's vocals, since I come from the
classic (heartland) rock. I know that many lovers of classic rock do not
tolerate Yes more for the voice of Anderson
than for their song, convoluted and full of virtuosic instrumental pieces.
But ...
Let's go back to the song! The singing arrives: strophe, second strophe and
immediately the chorus that then fades into a short solo by Howe that connects it to the bridge, at a more relaxed pace, then again comes the refrain, which
in the final salt of tone touch a solemn epic climax ("I Get Up, I Get
Down").
This
structure, in fact an easy-listening melodic beat song, represents the backbone
of everything in Close To The Edge.
A piece of
connection follows where Squire's bass is in evidence, then the keyboards report
to the main melody: strophe, second strophe, chorus. All played with a different
rhythm by Bruford and with greater use of the bass. In the refrain, more
Wakeman's keyboards begins to be heard. Then bridge (where Howe's guitar feels
good and there is an intermittent super high-pitched sound, I don't know if it's still
produced by Howe or by Wakeman), then new chorus, which ends when we're at 8
minutes.
Following
is a piece centered on low tones that introduce us to the instrumental break
dominated by Wakeman. The music slows down, the rhythm section disappears, the
song is deconstructed, leaving only abstract landscapes dominated by keyboards.
It seems to be in a cold cave and in fact you can hear the sound of drops
falling. Wakeman combines the sound of the synthesizer and comes the singing of
Anderson, in a
doubled voice, at ease in this ethereal atmosphere. He starts again from the
bridge, sung with slow rhythm, alternating with choirs of the chorus. This time
Anderson's singing is intimate, confidential, and alternate to the choirs: my
opinion is in this context that gives the best of himself, when his singing is
confidential, and does not stand on the high notes ... or alternatively, when
it grows on the high notes, if it is flanked by a melodic musical crescendo,
and it's just happening now: the vocals "I Get Up, I Get Down, I Get Up" push the music to its peak,
a marvelous epic, majestic, solemn climax after the long
bridge / chorus; the voice rises in tone, and then the Wakeman church
organ follow the vocals, and it sounds perfect for this musical juncture. We are a little longer than 12
minutes, and finally the song touches one of the highest peak of quality in the entire Yes's
discography. Still Anderson,
singing: "I Get Up, I Get Down", he leads the organ to lower notes, and
after just over 14 minutes, the rhythm of the melody returns, with Bruford
distinguishing it again from jazz preciousness.
The
keyboards come back, and finally the singing starts again, on the hyperspeed
rhythm with which it started the song: strophe, second strophe, bridge this
time before the chorus, and finally again: "I Get Up, I Get Down",
which closes in fading returning to the initial country noises.
Close To
The Edge, in my opinion, is not a real suite. It is a song strophe-chorus
dilated to no end, which repeats the chorus (refrain) 6 times in total. Yes
have created a new song format, they take a commercial easy-listening song with
a strophe-refrain-bridge-refrain structure and then they dilate it, speed it
up, slow it down, accompany it with changes of rhythm and arrangement, support
it with instrumental digressions and get to almost 20 minutes: and here’s to
you a beat song disguised as a classical suite. The (high-class) operation unites a simple
substance: an easily accessible music, to a complex form: its clothing with a
high quotient of virtuosity, refined arrangement, polyrhythmic instrumental
pieces.
And now, if you want, free discussion.
|
nice..  It iis like I have said many times over the years. Yes were fans of pop music, not jazz, not classial music. Their stated goal was to merge pop music with instrumental validity. The structure of CttE is of a standard pop song intro/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/middle8/instrumental-break/verse/chorus/outro format.
The difference was of course that on CttE they took the hooks and melodies one finds on standard pop songs and expanded upon them. That was the genius of it. And as one reviewing wag was famously said, if it hadn't been perfected to olympian standards.. you would have the sonic equivalent of Celine Dion's My heart will go on...the Love Theme from the Titanic pumped into your brain.. or at least till you lost your marbles and blew your f**king brains out to escape the torture. It wasn't like standard prog 'epic's.. don't like a section.. just wait.. it will change due to cut and paste.. song fragment structures of nearly every single prog epic ever done. It was a purely single composition.. the first and only 18 minute pop song.
well done sir... here.. have another clappie.. 
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
|
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 16 2019 at 17:20
^ ......and Asia crafted Pop songs without expanding on themes.......
|
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 16 2019 at 17:21
There's lot's of songs that have that verse chorus structure. It doesn't make them pop songs. Country, vocal jazz, indie rock, alternative rock, metal, etc. Lot's of different genres(most in fact)have verse chorus song structures and yet they are not pop. But if having those structures makes it pop then pretty much anything except the most out there or deliberate prog stuff could be called pop. "Run to the hills" by Iron Maiden has a verse chorus structure(not to mention lot's of neo prog). Is that pop too?
|
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: March 17 2019 at 01:41
Tom Ozric wrote:
^ ......and Asia crafted Pop songs without expanding on themes....... |
Steve Howe was also in Asia, so are we surprised?!
-------------
"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
|
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 17 2019 at 02:48
Frenetic Zetetic wrote:
Tom Ozric wrote:
^ ......and Asia crafted Pop songs without expanding on themes....... |
Steve Howe was also in Asia, so are we surprised?! | Word.......
|
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: March 17 2019 at 06:40
I think the punctus saliens here is that "Close to the Edge" is more or less a sonata form - but the difference between the sonata form and the pop song is mainly one of size. The sonata form goes like this:
Intro - main theme - second theme - main theme - second theme - development - main theme - second theme - coda
A pop song goes like this:
Intro - verse - chorus - verse - chorus - bridge/solo - verse - chorus - outro
As you can see, the same structure, only that in the sonata form, the verse is called "main theme", the chorus is called "second theme", the bridge/solo is called "development", and the outro is calld "coda". And, of course, a sonata form is much longer than a pop song. Everything is just bigger. That's all!
------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 17 2019 at 07:26
^ I think what we might recognise as traditional song structures existed in antiquity as folk music long before the development of classical sonata form in all its myriad variations. Conflating the two seems as much of a stretch as putting soda in a wine bottle and calling it Chateau de Fizz . It's what the identifiable sections contain and how that thematic material is developed as to where the difference perhaps lies: Contrasting keys are an identifying feature of sonata form e.g. between the exposition/recapitulation sections and such modulations are the exception in pop music. The development section in sonata form is very often treated as tonally unstable or at least ambivalent which is very rarely the case in pop songs. Verse-chorus form is also more sectional i.e while an exposition
usually has a transition between 1st and 2nd themes bringing us to the new key, in Pop songs, verses tend to move straight into choruses and if there’s any
pre-chorus in between, its role is typically to build up dynamic energy rather
than to modulate to another key centre. However, these are all very broad brush strokes and I don't necessarily disagree with the gist of your post but let's guard against thinking pop song structures 'grew out of' any historical classical forms.
-------------
|
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: March 17 2019 at 08:46
You are right, there is more than size what distinguishes the sonata form from the structure of a typical pop song (which, as you observe, dates back to folk songs and is much older than the sonata form - so if one grew out of the other, it is the sonata form growing out of the song form and not the other way). There is a lot of stuff going on in a sonata-form piece that usually isn't found in a pop song, such as the second theme being in the dominant key to the main theme's key, complex modulations in the development, and other stuff you don't find in a typical pop or folk song.
------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
|
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 17 2019 at 17:11
I think the important thing is that there are no wasted moments. On whether it's actually symphonic or not I really wouldn't have a clue. In 1972 the leading prog bands were stretching themselves and setting the agenda. CTTE was the perfect balance of ambition and clear headed thinking by the best line up of musicians ever assembled in a rock band IMO. I reckon it deserves it's No1 slot.
|
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: March 17 2019 at 18:32
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
There's lot's of songs that have that verse chorus structure. It doesn't make them pop songs. Country, vocal jazz, indie rock, alternative rock, metal, etc. Lot's of different genres(most in fact)have verse chorus song structures and yet they are not pop. But if having those structures makes it pop then pretty much anything except the most out there or deliberate prog stuff could be called pop. "Run to the hills" by Iron Maiden has a verse chorus structure(not to mention lot's of neo prog). Is that pop too?
|
You're right, even rock songs have the verse-chorus style, but I would like you to notice some things. First of all, I ask whether "Close to the Edge" is a real suite. Now, in my opinion, the suites are long because they are based on multiple melodies, on several themes that are developed and finally integrated with each other. That is, they have a long course due to the fact that there is a lot of musical material. For example, Supper's Ready or The Plague. Close to the Edge instead, you can see it well in the sung part, it always has the same verses and the same chorus, that is the same melodies, although the arrangements and rhythms are very varied. Instead on Tales or Relayer there are the suites.
As for the difference between pop songs and rock songs, I would say that the essential difference lies in the melody: the pop song has an easy, catchy melody, the rock one is more based on rhythm. Another difference is the arrangement: the pop one has patinated sounds, the rock one is rougher and heavier. Pathos is another: the pop stimulates light emotions, the rock stimulates stronger emotions.
------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
|
Posted By: TCat
Date Posted: March 17 2019 at 19:23
Here is the thing I have noticed about Yes' longer tracks. Many times, you see them with the various sections named. Using CttE as an example, there are 4 parts listed as "The Solid Time of Change", "Total Mass Retain", "I Get Up, I Get Down", and "Seasons of Man". Many times, when you listen to other bands and they have songs with parts (or movements) to them, they follow the old "Classical" approach where each part or movement is a separate section of a longer work. Yes didn't follow that approach as much as they followed the "Impressionist" approach where the beginning and end of each movement isn't so cut and dried, but they flow into and on top of each other, so you hear sections of each movement in other movements. This is why there are no timings on each of the movements or parts. King Crimson was also known to do this (for example "Court of the Crimson King" of "Epitaph"). That is just one example of the genius of progressive music over just plain pop or rock music, the fact that progressive artists will take the basis of rock and pop and throw new and exciting ideas into the mix, or even take tried and true ideas from other genres and expand boundaries by utilizing them. Even the subgenre of Progressive Rock that most proggers have the hardest time with, RIO and Avant Prog, utilize ideas from impressionistic composers to stretch the boundaries to almost extreme levels. The fact that CttE or any progressive music comes from the roots of pop and rock, which in turn comes from the blues and jazz, should not surprise anyone. The difference is that the boundaries are limitless in progressive music. It also comes from the roots of orchestral music; as examples from each of the eras: Jethro Tull = Baroque Era. Genesis = Classical Era. Pink Floyd = Romantic Era. Frank Zappa = 20th Century composers.
------------- https://ibb.co/8x0xjR0" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Patrick_Schlies
Date Posted: March 17 2019 at 19:23
I completely agree. Unlike something such as Supper's Ready, which is clearly 4-5 separate songs connected together, Close to The Edge is one body of work that stretches to 18 minutes. For that reason, compared to all the other prog epics, this one zooms by so fast. Compare it even to The Gates of Delirium, which is a couple minutes longer, but feels 6-7 minutes longer due to "Soon" really being its own song.
------------- Patrick Schlies, a lover of music
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 17 2019 at 20:17
jamesbaldwin wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
There's lot's of songs that have that verse chorus structure. It doesn't make them pop songs. Country, vocal jazz, indie rock, alternative rock, metal, etc. Lot's of different genres(most in fact)have verse chorus song structures and yet they are not pop. But if having those structures makes it pop then pretty much anything except the most out there or deliberate prog stuff could be called pop. "Run to the hills" by Iron Maiden has a verse chorus structure(not to mention lot's of neo prog). Is that pop too?
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You're right, even rock songs have the verse-chorus style, but I would like you to notice some things. First of all, I ask whether "Close to the Edge" is a real suite. Now, in my opinion, the suites are long because they are based on multiple melodies, on several themes that are developed and finally integrated with each other. That is, they have a long course due to the fact that there is a lot of musical material. For example, Supper's Ready or The Plague. Close to the Edge instead, you can see it well in the sung part, it always has the same verses and the same chorus, that is the same melodies, although the arrangements and rhythms are very varied. Instead on Tales or Relayer there are the suites.
As for the difference between pop songs and rock songs, I would say that the essential difference lies in the melody: the pop song has an easy, catchy melody, the rock one is more based on rhythm. Another difference is the arrangement: the pop one has patinated sounds, the rock one is rougher and heavier. Pathos is another: the pop stimulates light emotions, the rock stimulates stronger emotions.
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Based on what I know about pop and what it sounds like CTTE does not sound like a pop song. Does it have a pop song structure? Maybe but if so then so does the title track to ITCOTCK then. THat is very much verse chorus with refrains that repeat and is just as repetitious as CTTE. TO me the title track to that first KC doesn't sound like pop either but it's structured in a way that could be called pop if CTTE is. CTTE has both rhythm and melody though. Also, how many pop songs have three minutes of pure instrumental almost fusion sounds before the vocals kick in? The vocals are very much verse for three or four minutes and the chorus doesn't come in until later. You can call it a pop song(Court too)if you won't but you won't ever hear me call it that. That being said I understand that pop is at the root of rock and other music forms including prog so I don't view it as an insult necessarily I just think maybe some of you guys are using the term more broadly than I am. I personally would never put Yes in the same category as Brittany Spears or Justin Timberlake(coincidence there don't read into it)or whoever is the flavor of the week that your average teenage girl listens to. Not even 80's Yes.
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Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: March 18 2019 at 05:36
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
jamesbaldwin wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
There's lot's of songs that have that verse chorus structure. It doesn't make them pop songs. Country, vocal jazz, indie rock, alternative rock, metal, etc. Lot's of different genres(most in fact)have verse chorus song structures and yet they are not pop. But if having those structures makes it pop then pretty much anything except the most out there or deliberate prog stuff could be called pop. "Run to the hills" by Iron Maiden has a verse chorus structure(not to mention lot's of neo prog). Is that pop too?
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You're right, even rock songs have the verse-chorus style, but I would like you to notice some things. First of all, I ask whether "Close to the Edge" is a real suite. Now, in my opinion, the suites are long because they are based on multiple melodies, on several themes that are developed and finally integrated with each other. That is, they have a long course due to the fact that there is a lot of musical material. For example, Supper's Ready or The Plague. Close to the Edge instead, you can see it well in the sung part, it always has the same verses and the same chorus, that is the same melodies, although the arrangements and rhythms are very varied. Instead on Tales or Relayer there are the suites.
As for the difference between pop songs and rock songs, I would say that the essential difference lies in the melody: the pop song has an easy, catchy melody, the rock one is more based on rhythm. Another difference is the arrangement: the pop one has patinated sounds, the rock one is rougher and heavier. Pathos is another: the pop stimulates light emotions, the rock stimulates stronger emotions.
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Based on what I know about pop and what it sounds like CTTE does not sound like a pop song. Does it have a pop song structure? Maybe but if so then so does the title track to ITCOTCK then. THat is very much verse chorus with refrains that repeat and is just as repetitious as CTTE. TO me the title track to that first KC doesn't sound like pop either but it's structured in a way that could be called pop if CTTE is. CTTE has both rhythm and melody though. Also, how many pop songs have three minutes of pure instrumental almost fusion sounds before the vocals kick in? The vocals are very much verse for three or four minutes and the chorus doesn't come in until later. You can call it a pop song(Court too)if you won't but you won't ever hear me call it that. That being said I understand that pop is at the root of rock and other music forms including prog so I don't view it as an insult necessarily I just think maybe some of you guys are using the term more broadly than I am. I personally would never put Yes in the same category as Brittany Spears or Justin Timberlake(coincidence there don't read into it)or whoever is the flavor of the week that your average teenage girl listens to. Not even 80's Yes.
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I dont consider CTTE a simple pop song, similar to those of B. Spears or J. Timberlake.
I have written: "Yes have created a new song format, they take a commercial easy-listening song with a strophe-refrain-bridge-refrain structure and then they dilate it, speed it up, slow it down, accompany it with changes of rhythm and arrangement, support it with instrumental digressions and get to almost 20 minutes: and here’s to you a beat song disguised as a classical suite."
I consider CTTE a new song format. The substance, the original material is a pop (rock) song, but the form is a suite: this fact explain why the song lasts 18:30 minutes and the vocals arrive after three minutes. In fact, even TCOTCK is a melodic pop song dilated and arranged in a proggy way. Progressive rock is a new form of song. It's a style. But the content is pop, or rock, or hard rock, or jazz-rock etc. Anyway, the real suites are made of many songs, or many melodies connect to each other.
------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 18 2019 at 06:51
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 18 2019 at 07:00
^ The first section of an ancient Greek choral ode or of one division of it.
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Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: March 18 2019 at 09:17
ExittheLemming wrote:
^ The first section of an ancient Greek choral ode or of one division of it. |
Yes, verse, no strophe. Sorry for my english! 
In Italian, if I consider the beginning of Close to the Edge:
A seasoned witch could call you from the depths of your disgrace, And rearrange your liver to the solid mental grace, And achieve it all with music that came quickly from afar, Then taste the fruit of man recorded losing all against the hour And assessing points to nowhere, leading every single one A dewdrop can exalt us like the music of the sun, And take away the plain in which we move, And choose the course you're running
The whole piece is called: "strofa" Instead every phrase, for example: "A seasoned witch could call you from the depths of your disgrace" is called "verso", so "strofa" (and not "verso") is translated with "verse", not "strophe".
------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: March 19 2019 at 08:21
I have a degree in music theory and I have no idea what "Close To The Edge" is - besides a great piece of music!!! Long live YES!!!
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 19 2019 at 09:08
^ That's OK, as long as the taxpayer is not picking up the tab for your tuition fees
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 19 2019 at 09:55
ExittheLemming wrote:
^ That's OK, as long as the taxpayer is not picking up the tab for your tuition fees
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Why not? They pay for the funding of elementary and high school. 
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 19 2019 at 13:37
micky wrote:
... nice.. It iis like I have said many times over the years. Yes were fans of pop music, not jazz, not classial music. Their stated goal was to merge pop music with instrumental validity. The structure of CttE is of a standard pop song intro/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/middle8/instrumental-break/verse/chorus/outro format. ... |
There are a couple of albums where classical music is played BEFORE the concert ... I won't say that there is a connection, but I would rather associate a piece like CTTE to a classical piece than I would to a pop song ... specially as it is not showing you a half nekkid girlie or some sort of idiotic sonata format like so many pop songs do within 3 minutes. At least not in the 18 minutes although one might suggest some barbs about that from the opening and ending sounds.
I still feel that this kind of work was "the classical music" by the folks my age at that time ... that were hoping to put together something more meaningful than just a pop song. Sadly, my opinion stands that we talk of too many of these things as a pop song, not a serious composition, be it with or without some improvisation in it, as so many other groups also had it.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: March 21 2019 at 09:36
I've written my complete review of "Close To The Edge", here:
http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=2167553" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=2167553
------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 21 2019 at 10:04
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: March 21 2019 at 10:12
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
Hah. I guess all the songs on dark side of the moon and wish you were here are pop songs too. :D | Even in the original edition of Ummagumma you can read "File under: Pop".
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 21 2019 at 12:17
Black Sabbath and Motorhead never considered their music "heavy metal."
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