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Tool/Top 100??

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Topic: Tool/Top 100??

Posted By: Drew
Subject: Tool/Top 100??
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:10

So it has come to this, my progger friends. Tool is in the top 100 list (at least for now.) "Lateralus" sp?

Thoughts?

I guess i didnt see this coming- ever- on a prog site.

Replies:

Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:12

I'm comfortable with it. If enough people feel it is a prog rock record, and
rate it highly, then it deserves to be there irrespective of my personal views.

Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:12

Someone PLEASE pull the plug on that f**king list before it makes this site a laughing stock.

Posted By: horza
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:13

I like Tool

-------------
Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:18

I take it Trouser doesnt like Tool being on the list- nor do I.

Posted By: horza
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:24

Sorry make that i don't like Tool then

-------------
Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:26

HAHA

Posted By: horza
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:31

Ehhh.... who are Tool again ? I was thinking of Tull

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Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:32

I think it's great,what do you expect me to say.The rest of you go stick your heads back in the sand and worship all the 70's classic prog bands that you all love so much,since even trying to like anything new or different is beyond you.

-------------

Posted By: Nipsey88
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:33

Lateralus is a wonderful prog record. If ya don't like it, then return your fingers to your ears, resume saying "la la la la la", and pretend its still 1974.

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http://www.last.fm/user/Nipsey88/?chartstyle=myspace02" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:33

Trouserpress wrote:

Someone PLEASE pull the plug on that f**king list before it makes this site a laughing stock.

Come on man, why do you care so much?

(BTW: from the albums that are in the list, I would place Lateralus even higher... that said: I would exclude more than half of the list if I would have to make my personal top 100)

But why bother? The list is a nice indication of the most popular albums here.

Posted By: horza
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:33

I like Tool

-------------
Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.

Posted By: pepolo
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:39

Tool =

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:40

Tool are amazing, Lateralus is as prog as it can be and it should be higher up. Even though I like AEnima more, Lateralus is their ultimate prog masterliece.

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http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:40

I like the list

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Posted By: Prodigal
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:40

I don't like Tool...

I LOVE THEM SO FREAKIN MUCH!!!!!!!!!

Posted By: stinkfist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:40

i think lateralus is fine in the top 100
but will never find it better than AEnima

-------------
how can this mean anything to me?
when i really dont feel a thing at all

Posted By: Hangedman
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:42

Tool is an immensly popular band, and imo, rightly so! Lateralus is a masterpeice, and Aenima is great. Now that Mr. Bungle and Fantomas arent in prog metal (at least last time i checked im pretty sure) Tool is my favourite prog-metal band!

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:43

I think its a decent album- even though I dont care for Tool- but I just dont see it as prog.

Posted By: horza
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:43

The Miracle wrote:

I dont like Tool

not all popular music is good, so be tolerant

the cool antarctican voice of reason

-------------
Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.

Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:44

Joren wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Someone PLEASE pull the plug on that f**king list before it makes this site a laughing stock.

Come on man, why do you care so much?

(BTW: from the albums that are in the list, I would place Lateralus even higher... that said: I would exclude more than half of the list if I would have to make my personal top 100)

But why bother? The list is a nice indication of the most popular albums here.

Because that list neither acts as a good indicator of what prog is nor which albums would make good starting points for budding prog fans. It causes arguments and ratings wars, countless threads such as this one and serves no real function other than to show which albums have been rated the most. So blood what?

I don't think it adds to this site, but it certainly takes away.

Progtologist - this has got nothing to do with me "worshipping 70s bands" you should know I'm not guilty of that. I just feel this list serves no real purpose other than to upset people and cause arguments.

Posted By: stinkfist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:45

was he saying tool is popular music
because if he was he'd have to explain how tool is popular

-------------
how can this mean anything to me?
when i really dont feel a thing at all

Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:46

James Maynard Keenan of Tool once said...

'I can see what they think now..Everybody that comes to see us must think that we actually stole all of King Crimson's patterns..But we have never said that we didn't..'

Anyway what i want to say is that Tool deserves to be here ..Their music is 100% progressive...If there's somebody that thinks differently should use a time machine and go back in the 70s....

-------------

Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:47

I don't like Tool, but don't care either. When has it ever been serious in the first place? BE beats all those albums on that list!

Posted By: horza
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:48

i like to check the list to see who is on it - i don't get hot and bothered over the placings,the majority of which i do NOT agree with anyway - its not going to solve world hunger so lets not get too precious

-------------
Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:49

Ok if Tool is here- lets add Audioslave, Motograter, Ill Nino and other bands or the sort. Why not?

Posted By: stinkfist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:50

what the hell are you talking about
your making no goddamn sense drew

-------------
how can this mean anything to me?
when i really dont feel a thing at all

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:51

Trouserpress wrote:

Joren wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Someone PLEASE pull the plug on that f**king list before it makes this site a laughing stock.

Come on man, why do you care so much?

(BTW: from the albums that are in the list, I would place Lateralus even higher... that said: I would exclude more than half of the list if I would have to make my personal top 100)

But why bother? The list is a nice indication of the most popular albums here.

I know TP.I usually have a pretty thick skin but every once in a while I get tired of people bashing a band I am very passionate about.I am pretty used to it and usually it rolls right off of me.I just knew even before I looked at the thread that there was gonna be quite a bit of Tool bashing.So,I apologize TP

-------------

Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:51

Actually Audioslave sounds like free...Dunno Motograter ,and i think that Ill Nino is a nu metal band...Tool's music is much more complex and personal....

-------------

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:52

Drew wrote:

Ok if Tool is here- lets add Audioslave, Motograter, Ill Nino and other bands or the sort. Why not?

Because those bands are not progressive metal,and Tool is.

-------------

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:54

Angeldust wrote:

Actually Audioslave sounds like free...Dunno Motograter ,and i think that Ill Nino is a nu metal band...Tool's music is much more complex and personal....

So if Audioslave talks about anal sex THEN can they be added to this site?

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:55

Angeldust wrote:

James Maynard Keenan of Tool once said...

It's Maynard James Keenan,AD.

-------------

Posted By: horza
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:56

i like Tool

-------------
Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:56

TheProgtologist wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Joren wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Someone PLEASE pull the plug on that f**king list before it makes this site a laughing stock.

Come on man, why do you care so much?

(BTW: from the albums that are in the list, I would place Lateralus even higher... that said: I would exclude more than half of the list if I would have to make my personal top 100)

But why bother? The list is a nice indication of the most popular albums here.

Who's bashing? its just a conversation about whether or not to have Tool on this site is all. No one said they sucked- or were crappy. They are talented.

Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:57

Since when do we talk about the lyrics anyway ?

Oops, excuse me TheProtologist..I got so nervous when i saw the posts that wrote it wrong...(what a name though )

-------------

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:57

Drew wrote:

Angeldust wrote:

Actually Audioslave sounds like free...Dunno Motograter ,and i think that Ill Nino is a nu metal band...Tool's music is much more complex and personal....

So if Audioslave talks about anal sex THEN can they be added to this site?

No....if Audioslave was a progressive metal band they can be added.THEY"RE NOT.

-------------

Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:58

Drew wrote:

TheProgtologist wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Joren wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Someone PLEASE pull the plug on that f**king list before it makes this site a laughing stock.

Come on man, why do you care so much?

(BTW: from the albums that are in the list, I would place Lateralus even higher... that said: I would exclude more than half of the list if I would have to make my personal top 100)

But why bother? The list is a nice indication of the most popular albums here.

Who's bashing? its just a conversation about whether or not to have Tool on this site is all. No one said they sucked- or were crappy. They are talented.

I have no problem with Tool being on this site, they're a prog band and no mistake. What concerns me is that this is yet another controversy sparked by that accursed list. WHY DO WE NEED IT?

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 19:59

Angeldust wrote:

Since when do we talk about the lyrics anyway ?

Oops, excuse me TheProtologist..I got so nervous when i saw the posts that wrote it wrong...(what a name though )

I seem to recall many threads about lyrics.

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:00

Drew wrote:

TheProgtologist wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Joren wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Someone PLEASE pull the plug on that f**king list before it makes this site a laughing stock.

Come on man, why do you care so much?

(BTW: from the albums that are in the list, I would place Lateralus even higher... that said: I would exclude more than half of the list if I would have to make my personal top 100)

But why bother? The list is a nice indication of the most popular albums here.

Who's bashing? its just a conversation about whether or not to have Tool on this site is all. No one said they sucked- or were crappy. They are talented.

It was and is NOT a conversation about whether or not to have Tool on this site at all.It was a conversation about Lateralus being in the Top 100.

-------------

Posted By: stinkfist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:00

its fun to talk about

-------------
how can this mean anything to me?
when i really dont feel a thing at all

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:00

Trouserpress wrote:

Drew wrote:

TheProgtologist wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Joren wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Someone PLEASE pull the plug on that f**king list before it makes this site a laughing stock.

Come on man, why do you care so much?

(BTW: from the albums that are in the list, I would place Lateralus even higher... that said: I would exclude more than half of the list if I would have to make my personal top 100)

But why bother? The list is a nice indication of the most popular albums here.

Who's bashing? its just a conversation about whether or not to have Tool on this site is all. No one said they sucked- or were crappy. They are talented.

I have no problem with Tool being on this site, they're a prog band and no mistake. What concerns me is that this is yet another controversy sparked by that accursed list. WHY DO WE NEED IT?

Trouser- Who's holding you hostage to this thread? You don't have to post!

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:03

OK- lets just say this- regarding the top 100- if you think they should be there- thats fine. If otherwise- fine. Its obvious that they are controversial to this site- and nothing can be resolved. Listen to what you dig- sorry to any Tool fans (if I offended you- im sorry.) Rock on.

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:03

King of Loss wrote:

I don't like Tool, but don't care either. When has it ever been serious in the first place? BE beats all those albums on that list!

PE owns Be.

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:06

The Miracle wrote:

PE owns Be.

Couldn't agree more

-------------

Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:06

The Miracle wrote:

King of Loss wrote:

I don't like Tool, but don't care either. When has it ever been serious in the first place? BE beats all those albums on that list!

PE owns Be.

pE?

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:07

King of Loss wrote:

The Miracle wrote:

King of Loss wrote:

I don't like Tool, but don't care either. When has it ever been serious in the first place? BE beats all those albums on that list!

PE owns Be.

pE?

Perfect Element

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:07

King of Loss wrote:

The Miracle wrote:

King of Loss wrote:

I don't like Tool, but don't care either. When has it ever been serious in the first place? BE beats all those albums on that list!

PE owns Be.

pE?

I'd hazard a guess at Perfect Element.

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:07

I second King- pe?

Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:07

Ahhh. The Perfect Element Part I. I call them TPEP1

That's a good album, except the instruments and the experimentation is MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER on BE and its not just purely based on emotions..

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:08

Oh-

well then-

i choose RL over those 2. haha

RL!

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:09

Drew wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Drew wrote:

TheProgtologist wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Joren wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Someone PLEASE pull the plug on that f**king list before it makes this site a laughing stock.

Come on man, why do you care so much?

(BTW: from the albums that are in the list, I would place Lateralus even higher... that said: I would exclude more than half of the list if I would have to make my personal top 100)

But why bother? The list is a nice indication of the most popular albums here.

Who's bashing? its just a conversation about whether or not to have Tool on this site is all. No one said they sucked- or were crappy. They are talented.

I have no problem with Tool being on this site, they're a prog band and no mistake. What concerns me is that this is yet another controversy sparked by that accursed list. WHY DO WE NEED IT?

Trouser- Who's holding you hostage to this thread? You don't have to post!

I am....I doused all his Gentle Giant albums with lighter fluid and have a pack of matches in my hand....

Tp....say Tool is prog or GG gets it!!!!!!!!

-------------

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:10

King of Loss wrote:

Ahhh. The Perfect Element Part I. I call them TPEP1

That's a good album, except the instruments and the experimentation is MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER on BE and its not just purely based on emotions..

On BE, Gildenlow forgot that music comes befre the concept

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:12

TheProgtologist wrote:

Drew wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Drew wrote:

TheProgtologist wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Joren wrote:

Trouserpress wrote:

Someone PLEASE pull the plug on that f**king list before it makes this site a laughing stock.

Come on man, why do you care so much?

(BTW: from the albums that are in the list, I would place Lateralus even higher... that said: I would exclude more than half of the list if I would have to make my personal top 100)

But why bother? The list is a nice indication of the most popular albums here.

Who's bashing? its just a conversation about whether or not to have Tool on this site is all. No one said they sucked- or were crappy. They are talented.

I have no problem with Tool being on this site, they're a prog band and no mistake. What concerns me is that this is yet another controversy sparked by that accursed list. WHY DO WE NEED IT?

Trouser- Who's holding you hostage to this thread? You don't have to post!

I am....I doused all his Gentle Giant albums with lighter fluid and have a pack of matches in my hand....

Tp....say Tool is prog or GG gets it!!!!!!!!

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:14

Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:15

The Miracle wrote:

King of Loss wrote:

Ahhh. The Perfect Element Part I. I call them TPEP1

That's a good album, except the instruments and the experimentation is MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER on BE and its not just purely based on emotions..

On BE, Gildenlow forgot that music comes befre the concept

He applied it perfectly! No other concept album is as complete as BE

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:18

King of Loss wrote:

The Miracle wrote:

King of Loss wrote:

Ahhh. The Perfect Element Part I. I call them TPEP1

That's a good album, except the instruments and the experimentation is MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER on BE and its not just purely based on emotions..

On BE, Gildenlow forgot that music comes befre the concept

He applied it perfectly! No other concept album is as complete as BE

SFAM, The Lamb, etc

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:18

What about Operation Mindcrime .... ?Metropolis pt 2?

-------------

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:21

Even Savatage's streets

So underrated

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:22

Angeldust wrote:

What about Operation Mindcrime .... ?Metropolis pt 2?

Not that complete compared to BE. BE is about 10000 X more intellectual than those, even those are some of my favorites.

Posted By: The Ryan
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:23

Something I do not understand is why "controversial" (Said to be prog by some, non-prog by others) bands are not tagged down as such, so you all can stop complaining about it. There are such bands/artists as Deep Purple, Steve Vai, and Tool on this site, and these three are among prog-heroes such as Emerson Lake and Palmer, Genesis, Yes, and Pink Floyd. Often people know what progressive rock is, but include their idols with the proglegends I mentioned. What makes Deep Purple, Steve Vai, and Tool prog? I don't know, you all tell me, perhaps if there's a warning on every review and page involving these three "controversial" artists/bands (And all other controversials) people would complain much less. The list of 100 bands/artists will never be reality for anyone, everyone will disagree with something involving the bands and albums on the list (I know I do). I want to know why Tool is, or isn't prog. Since everyone has their own tiny little opinion but can't give a full answer, Tool and others should be set aside somehow (A tag perhaps) - that is, if kept on this site.

Something new I found interesting and positive about this website is the "Sub-genre" "Proto-prog", this includes the Moody Blues, which many will never consider prog. Now that puts the Moody Blues out of the fire of debate, we (The Website) now go by The Moody Blues as pioneers, not as much a progressive rock group per se. Also, see "Prog Related", Steve Vai and Styx are here (Thank god), but perhaps this should be much larger then it is the moment I wrote this reply.

This is my personal opinion, don't cry about it. Progressive Rock is an astronomical grey area of subjective judgements.

Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:23

Originally posted by <SPAN =bold>The Miracle

The Miracle wrote:

Even Savatage's streets So underrated

-------------

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:23

King of Loss wrote:

Angeldust wrote:

What about Operation Mindcrime .... ?Metropolis pt 2?

Not that complete compared to BE. BE is about 10000 X more intellectual than those, even those are some of my favorites.

SFAM is more complete

Be=too much talking, weaker compositions. I still like it a lot tho

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:24

BE does not have any weak parts, it is great as a whole! SFAM, has definitely some weaker parts! But its still a favorite album of mine!

Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:25

We can go like that all day long....

-------------

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:27

King of Loss wrote:

BE does not have any weak parts, it is great as a whole! SFAM, has definitely some weaker parts! But its still a favorite album of mine!

Just read http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=43736 - this review , I agree with it 100%

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:28

That review sucks! PoS is much better as a Prog unit that is not afraid to experiment instead of a boring, old Prog Metal band

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:36

King of Loss wrote:

That review sucks! PoS is much better as a Prog unit that is not afraid to experiment instead of a boring, old Prog Metal band

Be isn't really prog metal, it has more of symphonic prog sound. SFAM is better bo all means. Not too much emotion, brilliant musicianship, complex compositions, barely any extra talking. I'm not saying that Be is bad, it's just not perfect,

btw, I ordered Concrete Lake and Remedy lane through that link you gave me in the mariah thread. Both for $20 I was about to pay that for RL alone on amazon. Thanks

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: FragileDT
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:51

Drew wrote:

Angeldust wrote:

Since when do we talk about the lyrics anyway ?

Oops, excuse me TheProtologist..I got so nervous when i saw the posts
that wrote it wrong...(what a name though )

I seem to recall many threads about lyrics.

I think lyrics are very important in music. If the lyrics are very immature than
where is the emotion and feeling?

-------------
One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity

Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 20:57

Drew wrote:

So if Audioslave talks about anal sex THEN can they be added to this site?

I do think that lyrics are very important..But i don't think they should define music be genres..It's music after all ,not a book ....

-------------

Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 21:13

Drew wrote:

Ok if Tool is here- lets add Audioslave, Motograter, Ill Nino and other bands or the sort. Why not?

wow.

that is so ignorant I almost dont know what to say.

but I'll try.

I really wish I didnt have to keep defending Tool like I do. I know a lot of people don't like them and that's fine. Tool fans can be very annoying as they rabidly defend their band and declare Maynard their God. However, that aside, let's look at the music. or, since you cant really look at it, listen to it. If you ever had, you'd quickly realize that Tool has nothing at all in common with Audioslave, motograter or Ill Nino. Tool has much more in common with King Crimson, and really the only other band they can be compared to is themselves. The music is incredibly layered, complex, mathematical, melodic and meticulously structured. Visual art is highly featured in both their albums and live shows. please see the definition of progressive rock on the homepage if this does not clear things up for you. I really don't want to say this anymore, but JUST BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE IT DOESNT MEAN ITS NOT PROGRESSIVE.

Audioslave = soundgarden and RATM dumped in a bowl and peed on.
Ill Nino = Nu metal
Motograter = metal.

-------------
http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic
ALTAIC

"Oceans Down You'll Lie"
coming soon

Posted By: Crimsoner
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 22:04

Well... I truly think this thread got very weird hahaha... since the problematic issue was that Tool's Lateralus is within the 100 first most POPULAR albums of this site... Soo... that says only THAT... it doesn't mean that it is better than others that are after it... that anyone could think is better than Lateralus.

The big problem here is the list (wow what a discovery) and it's known that "Popularity list" always brings problems... so, whay don't we try to avoid all of those annoying fights?. We know that there are albums that according to our personal points of views don't "deserve" being in a certain position... That is always going to happen...

Someone is talking about bringing Audioslave, Ill nino... to Progarchives. hahaha I know he knows that Tool does not belongs to "that league". All of us know that Tool is different to those bands... and as we certainly know Tool is closer to THIS league than the other one.

I'm not saying that we have to live in peace... agreeing to everyone, BUT discussing things that we know will bring something useful (or not)... and not discussing "I think x band (album)should be higher than y band (album)".

bye

-------------
Just BE!

Posted By: The Ryan
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 22:11

GoldenSpiral wrote:

Drew wrote:

Ok if Tool is here- lets add Audioslave, Motograter, Ill Nino and other bands or the sort. Why not?

Audioslave = soundgarden and RATM dumped in a bowl and peed on.
Ill Nino = Nu metal
Motograter = metal.

I don't understand various things you've stated. I don't hear layers, complexity, mathematics, melody (not everywhere?) and meticulous structures in Tool. What is your credibility, and why are you correct? I still don't see what makes Tool prog or not, you're another fan, no? I see a fan's opinions, but little facts. And yes I have seen the definition of "progressive rock" on the "homepage." JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKE IT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S PROGRESSIVE.

"Progressive rock artists sought to move away from the limitations of radio formatted rock and pop, and "progress" rock to the point that it could achieve the sophistication of jazz or classical music." - "Prog Rock?" Page. Every kid I know who listens to modern rock loves Tool, how could this be? Are we progressing now? How so? Tool is on every modern rock station in my city, they have hooks (Or catches) that grab a young audience. The Mars Volta and Radiohead can't even say that - two controversial bands, should they be here? Maybe. A hook (The thing that grabs you) is something used and recognized very often in Rap/hiphop, pop, modern rock, and classic rock to attract wide audiences, but in prog? Not as common in the modern groups, hence modern prog-bands not being on the radio as less people are attracted to them. Tool does not have this characteristic, just look at fanbase and album sales and also what kind of people are listening.

The Following are -quotes/not necessarily universal characteristics- from the "Prog Rock?" definition page:

"Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp."

"Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness."

"Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play."

"Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant."

"Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer..."

"Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite..."

"An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday."

Ask yourself how many of these apply to Tool. Yes, as the person I have quoted has asked, do please check the definition page. I've attempted to play devil's advocate in an unbias way in response to a Tool-fan - and that is all.

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 22 2005 at 23:25

The Ryan wrote:

GoldenSpiral wrote:

Drew wrote:

Ok if Tool is here- lets add Audioslave, Motograter, Ill Nino and other bands or the sort. Why not?

Audioslave = soundgarden and RATM dumped in a bowl and peed on.
Ill Nino = Nu metal
Motograter = metal.

The Following are -quotes/not necessarily universal characteristics- from the "Prog Rock?" definition page:

"Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp."The only thing here that doesn't apply to Tool is songs running over 20 minutes.A lot of them average 7-10 minutes.Third Eye is almost 14.

"Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness."Definitely applicable to Tool's music

"Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play."No concept albums,but there are a lot of themes in their music.Disdain of organized religion/nonconformity/fear/greed/hypocrisy

"Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant."No multi part vocal harmonies but definitely an unusual vocal style

"Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer..."No keyboards but a variety of electronic effects.Danny Carey is starting to experiment alot with electronic drums and drum synthesizers.Go to his official site:

http://www.dannycarey.org/ - http://www.dannycarey.org/

hit the "technology" tab to see what I mean

"Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite..."Does not apply to their music

"An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday."Absolutely applies to Tool.Guitarist Adam Jones was a graphic artist,designer,and special effects artist(he worked on films like Aliens and Terminator 2)and is in charge all artwork and design.The linking of the visual aesthetic and their music is VERY prevelant.

These are a set of guidelines that are an attempt to define progressiveness,but they are not a rigid set of rules where all most be strictly followed in order for the band in question to be prog.I will say I am a huge Tool fan,and have seen them many times live.But I am not just a prog metal fan(even though it is my favorite genre).I like all kinds of prog,from the "classic" bands,neo,symphonic,canterbury,etc.

Open your mind up,Dude.

-------------

Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 00:40

The Ryan wrote:

GoldenSpiral wrote:

Drew wrote:

Ok if Tool is here- lets add Audioslave, Motograter, Ill Nino and other bands or the sort. Why not?

Audioslave = soundgarden and RATM dumped in a bowl and peed on.
Ill Nino = Nu metal
Motograter = metal.

The Following are -quotes/not necessarily universal characteristics- from the "Prog Rock?" definition page:

let's have a look, shall we....?

"Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp."
Tool's songs are epics in their own right, they average over 7 minutes, "Third Eye" on Aenima is over 13 minutes. The songs "Disposition" "Reflection" and "Triad" on Lateralus were originally conceived as one song, but later split. together they add up to over 20 minutes.

"Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness."
Umm..... listen to Lateralus or Aenima. they lyrics are quite dense, but are more metaphysical then storytelling.

"Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play."
Lateralus and Aenima could each be argued as a concept album, but loosely as in a DSOTM sort of concept. Not all prog bands need concept albums anyway.

"Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant."
Maynard has an unusual vocal style. if you cannot hear that, try listening.

"Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer..."
Not all prog bands use these, but a good portion of Danny Carey's drum set is electronic, plus he uses tabla drums.

"Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the virtuosity of the player."
While Tool does not generally indulge in outright displays of virtuosity, they CERTAINLY use unusual time signatures. Take the RADIO SINGLE "Scism" for example, which is in 12/8 time comprised of alternating measures of 5/8 and 7/8. Their other RADIO SINGLE "Lateralus" features a 3-measure chorus riff in which each measure progresses from 9/8 to 8/8 to 7/8. These are only 2 examples out of many.

"Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite..."
So they dont draw from classical influences directly. so what?

"An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday."

This is one of the aspects of prog Tool does best. The guitarist Adam Jones does the art direction for each album himself, often contributing his own work. the Lateralus art was done by artist Alex Grey, whose other works were featured during Tool's performances on the Lateralus tour.

ALL OF THEM APPLY TO TOOL.
any thing else I can help you with?

man, clearly you need to listen to the music before you make judgements like that. obviously, Tool is not the band for everyone. Like all prog bands, they take time and effort to get into. but, if you open up to the music, you might find it interesting.

-------------
http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic
ALTAIC

"Oceans Down You'll Lie"
coming soon

Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 00:42

Where is the line between a "hook" and a well-composed melody?

-------------
http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic
ALTAIC

"Oceans Down You'll Lie"
coming soon

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 01:08

Very nice GoldenSpiral,I wish I could have put it as well as you did(hey,I tried).You rule.Nice to know I am not alone here.

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Posted By: jackinthegreen
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 01:40

Top 100? I want Lateralus to be at least on Top five!

-------------
I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them fall away.

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 02:13

Drew wrote:

Ok if Tool is here- lets add Audioslave, Motograter, Ill Nino and other bands or the sort. Why not?

Where's the logic in this statement? Sounds completely bananas to me.

-------------
https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aotm-2025-1/vote" rel="nofollow - 2025 Monthly Release Poll

Listened to:

Posted By: ian_b
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 02:14

i just want to let everyone here know that i love tool, i think they are progressive and i am happy to see them in the top 100.

( i got to this one kinda late)

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 02:19

King of Loss wrote:

Ahhh. The Perfect Element Part I. I call them TPEP1

That's a good album, except the instruments and the experimentation is MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER on BE and its not just purely based on emotions..

It's rather the reverse for me. The music of The Perfect Element Pt. 1 is much more sophisticated and ambitioned than that of BE. BE has a more ambitioned CONCEPT, and the songs are simpler and more "in your face", as opposed to TPEP1 which has only a vague concept that's more open to interpretation, and the music has like 10x more themes which keep me much more interested in the long haul.

-------------
https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aotm-2025-1/vote" rel="nofollow - 2025 Monthly Release Poll

Listened to:

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 02:34

Nipsey88 wrote:

Lateralus is a wonderful prog record. If ya don't like it, then return your fingers to your ears, resume saying "la la la la la", and pretend its still 1974.

la la la la la

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 02:35

...actually Lateralus is a great prog album.I'm dreading the time the first Queen and Deep Purple albums make the top 100

Posted By: nimrodel
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 10:02

i like tool.

-------------
We want... a shrubbery!

Posted By: horza
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 10:05

Deep Purple are NOT prog !!!

Good grief

-------------
Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.

Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 10:23

I like Tool's Lateralus. And I even gave it a 5 star rating so you can all hate my guts!!

I am not a metal fan and this is not metal...hard edged but not "Iron Maiden". I came on this site looking for interesting bands I hadn't really heard before and the ones so far that have stood out for me are Tool, and The Mars Volta. Progressive in the real sense of the word I think...

And no, I didn't give it a 5 star rating just so it would get in the Top 100.....

Posted By: The Ryan
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 20:27

GoldenSpiral wrote:

The Ryan wrote:

GoldenSpiral wrote:

Drew wrote:

Ok if Tool is here- lets add Audioslave, Motograter, Ill Nino and other bands or the sort. Why not?

Audioslave = soundgarden and RATM dumped in a bowl and peed on.
Ill Nino = Nu metal
Motograter = metal.

The Following are -quotes/not necessarily universal characteristics- from the "Prog Rock?" definition page:

let's have a look, shall we....?

"Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant."
Maynard has an unusual vocal style. if you cannot hear that, try listening.

"Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite..."
So they dont draw from classical influences directly. so what?

"An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday."

ALL OF THEM APPLY TO TOOL.
any thing else I can help you with?

As an American I've had all the time and opportunities to live to Tool, and heard them quite a lot, honestly they're hard to miss. You couldn't have read the Prog Rock definition page obviously, hence your only argument being assuming I haven't listened to Tool. Tool does not have many prog-characteristics.

Posted By: ian_b
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 20:31

hes saying anly a person who has never listened to the music could make a post likie you did because he just proved every point you made about the band wrong.

Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 20:37

Tool don't have many prog - characteristics?Since when all the bands should use some patterns that claim to be prog-characterestics ...?In my head Ozric tentacles sounds as progressive as Hawkwind.And Gong as progressive as Camel.Open your mind ...!

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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 20:39

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

King of Loss wrote:

Ahhh. The Perfect Element Part I. I call them TPEP1

That's a good album, except the instruments and the experimentation is MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER on BE and its not just purely based on emotions..

my sentiments exactly

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http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: The Ryan
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 20:40

Angeldust wrote:

What makes Tool original or unique? What they do, I've heard before in many other bands. To me it's nothing new, but that part is my opinion.

Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 20:44

All bands have their influences...This doesn't mean they have a lack of personality,and they stick to them.....I find their music unique..And i think that there are many people here that agree with me.(even if they don't like them...)

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Posted By: GatesOfDelirium
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 22:14

I like Danny Carey, but I don't like Tool.

I like Jordan Rudess, but I don't like Dream Theater.

I like Mars Volta as a whole.

Strange?

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Posted By: stinkfist
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 22:27

The Ryan wrote:

Angeldust wrote:

What makes Tool original or unique? What they do, I've heard before in many other bands. To me it's nothing new, but that part is my opinion.

what makes any other band unique from any other band
every band takes a sound from another band or style
if you show me a band that hasnt
then i'll agree with you but until then i must say that is the largest pile of crap i ve ever heard

-------------
how can this mean anything to me?
when i really dont feel a thing at all

Posted By: The Ryan
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 23:10

stinkfist wrote:

The Ryan wrote:

Angeldust wrote:

What makes Tool original or unique? What they do, I've heard before in many other bands. To me it's nothing new, but that part is my opinion.

...And every band isn't prog. So how can YOU, Stinkfist, tell the difference? Some ideas are more creative then others of course.

Posted By: FragileDT
Date Posted: September 23 2005 at 23:50

The Miracle wrote:

King of Loss wrote:

That review sucks! PoS is
much better as a Prog unit that is not afraid to experiment instead of a
boring, old Prog Metal band

Be isn't really prog metal, it has more of symphonic prog sound. SFAM
is better bo all means. Not too much emotion, brilliant musicianship,
complex compositions, barely any extra talking. I'm not saying that Be is
bad, it's just not perfect,

btw, I ordered Concrete Lake and Remedy lane through that link you
gave me in the mariah thread. Both for $20www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif"> I was about to
pay that for RL alone on amazon. Thanks

Not too much emotion? Thats one thing I disagree with very much and it
is a common arguement about the band. I think SFAM has a ton of
emotion as does a lot of their other (more earlier) work.

-------------
One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity

Posted By: Lateralus_66
Date Posted: September 24 2005 at 00:09

Now 90th..!

GO GO GO GO...

-------------
"A mind is like a parachute. It does'nt work if it's not open." - Frank Zappa

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 24 2005 at 01:35

FragileDT wrote:

The Miracle wrote:

King of Loss wrote:

That review sucks! PoS is
much better as a Prog unit that is not afraid to experiment instead of a
boring, old Prog Metal band

Be isn't really prog metal, it has more of symphonic prog sound. SFAM
is better bo all means. Not too much emotion, brilliant musicianship,
complex compositions, barely any extra talking. I'm not saying that Be is
bad, it's just not perfect,

Not too much emotion? Thats one thing I disagree with very much and it
is a common arguement about the band. I think SFAM has a ton of
emotion as does a lot of their other (more earlier) work.

PoS is much more emotional than DT.

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 24 2005 at 01:45

The Ryan wrote:

GoldenSpiral wrote:

The Ryan wrote:

GoldenSpiral wrote:

Drew wrote:

Ok if Tool is here- lets add Audioslave, Motograter, Ill Nino and other bands or the sort. Why not?

Audioslave = soundgarden and RATM dumped in a bowl and peed on.
Ill Nino = Nu metal
Motograter = metal.

The Following are -quotes/not necessarily universal characteristics- from the "Prog Rock?" definition page:

let's have a look, shall we....?

"Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant."
Maynard has an unusual vocal style. if you cannot hear that, try listening.

"Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite..."
So they dont draw from classical influences directly. so what?

"An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday."

ALL OF THEM APPLY TO TOOL.
any thing else I can help you with?

WTF does this even mean???What is "live to Tool"?What do you mean by he didn't read the Prog Rock definition page??Me and GoldenSpiral took the Prog Rock definition page and pointed out in every almost every instance how Tool's music applies to the the definition of prog rock.I frankly don't care anymore how much you hate them,the evidence was presented to you and in your close-mindedness you refuted it.Go listen to whatever crap you like,I am done trying to convince you.

-------------

Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: September 24 2005 at 01:56

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Drew wrote:

Ok if Tool is here- lets add Audioslave, Motograter, Ill Nino and other bands or the sort. Why not?

Where's the logic in this statement? Sounds completely bananas to me.

Do they have SARCASM in Germany??????????????????

Posted By: cold103
Date Posted: September 24 2005 at 03:48

I like Tool and the list.