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In the Wake of Poseidon: Underrated?

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Topic: In the Wake of Poseidon: Underrated?
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: In the Wake of Poseidon: Underrated?
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 11:18
KC's sophomore effort. I feel that the album forms a couplet with ItCotCK and has merit. Many feel it's just a weak follow up from a disintegrating rock group. What's your opinion on In The Wake of Poseidon?

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Replies:
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 11:28
One of my favorites by KC...but then I'm a KC fan.....love the mellotron, etc and the title track.
I think it easily deserves 4 stars.



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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 11:51
Yes, Doc. There's something about that Mellotron that puts us under a spell.

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Posted By: mechanicalflattery
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 13:09
It's a fine album; most would enjoy it more were it not so conceptually derivative of the debut. The first three songs especially mirror the first three tracks of Court almost exactly. Cat Food and The Devil's Triangle are the only two pieces where the album properly establishes its own identity, setting aside the unintentional hilarity of the opening and closing a capella bits. The album has lots of great material, but I wouldn't call it a great album.


Posted By: Magnum Vaeltaja
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 13:14
I'm part of the minority that prefers it to the debut, so I'd consider it underrated. It unfairly draws a lot of flack for "copying" the debut, but given the line-up crisis around the time it was recorded, I'm impressed that it turned out as well as it did, and it does cover an awful lot of new ground (i.e. Cat Food, Devil's Triangle). As per side one, as I stated in my review of it:

Originally posted by Magnum Vaeltaja Magnum Vaeltaja wrote:

Rather than copy their predecessors, however, these tracks actually improve upon them and perfect them, the chaotic moments more brutal and discordant, the gentle moments softer and sweeter. 

While I've largely grown tired of the dreariness of the first side of Court, I still get an overwhelming feeling of bliss every time I hear Cadence and Cascade, and find myself marvelling at the majesty of the title track. I think that the extra Fripp acoustic work and Keith Tippett's piano touches are part of what helps this album exude its own special atmosphere; the debut lacks these extra sonic touches and actually strikes me as a little flat and one-dimensional when revisiting it.

As far as Schizoid Man vs Pictures of A City, the former is probably the more "serious" and "powerful" of the two, but Pictures of A City is just one big load of frantic, rip-roarin' fun. Cool


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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 13:20
I'd say yes, but just slightly.

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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 15:05
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

KC's sophomore effort. I feel that the album forms a couplet with ItCotCK and has merit. Many feel it's just a weak follow up from a disintegrating rock group. What's your opinion on In The Wake of Poseidon?


The latter. The only track I like unreservedly is Pictures of a City


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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 15:44
I don't care much for Cadence and Cascade or Cat Food, otherwise it's of the same quality as the debut for me.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 19:15
I think so. I'm not sure if it's as good as the debut but I think it comes pretty close over all. I think the formula is pretty much the same for side one and that knocks it down a bit but I like the devil's triangle better than moonchild.


Posted By: Upbeat Tango Monday
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 19:55
I think it's one of the best KC albums along with ITCOTKC, SABB and LTIA.

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Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 20:48
A much better follow up to the over rated debut. Their best album also

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 17 2017 at 22:08
I'm on the side of mediocre copy of the first one. Every single equivalent is of inferior quality for my taste. Except perhaps the title track... or not... I really love that one, but I still like Epitaph much better (it's either my favourite or my second favourite KC track)... I don't care for the rest of the album, though (while I think the debut is a masterpiece).


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: June 20 2017 at 03:30
Poseidon is a lot fresher sounding. The debut is just too raw and 60s. Cadence, Cat food, Poseidon and Pictures are classic

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: June 20 2017 at 03:36
My second favourite KC album after Islands.

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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 20 2017 at 05:46
Love it. Four stars.

No duff tracks IMO.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: June 20 2017 at 06:10
Poseidon is a little ahead of it's time. Rather than being guided by the limited vinyl format I see it as part of the KC compositional process. I think they were the first band to include a sample...

Some criticisms are a bit odd. Pictures Of A City sounds nothing like 21st C Schizoid Man (can't figure where people get this idea and temporarily conclude they are overly influenced by some critic of the build 'em up knock 'em down fraternity).

I think it's best to be guided by the written and recorded work rather than ascribe ACDC values to King Crimson.

Question for those who think it is derivative of the first album - what did you expect to hear? A band developing ambitious compositions must undergo a process.

Supplementary question - are we happy that by 1981 when neither Crim bore that much of a resemblance to one another?


Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: June 20 2017 at 09:59
I don't know if underrated or not.  I don;t think it's nearly as good as the debut, but I do think that the combination of "Cadence and Cascade" with the title cut is slightly better than the "I Talk to the Wind"/"Epitaph" combo.  


Posted By: Blaqua
Date Posted: June 20 2017 at 17:32

Rather underrated record, doesn’t equal though their first or even Red. Pictures of a City and especially the title track are some the finest KC moments IMO.



Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: June 20 2017 at 20:57
Dunno why people think the debut is so good. 2 or 3 songs just sound very outdated and nothing special to me.

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 21 2017 at 04:36
^Confused Omg, I think that I'm actually speechless!

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Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: July 03 2017 at 15:16
I don't really accept the concept of 'over-rated' or 'under-rated'; its all subjective in my view. My opinion is that I enjoy listening to them both equally; things had changed a lot (technology wise and within the band) between 1969 and 1970 which brings a very different vibe to both records yet they work very well as companion pieces.. Although ITCOTCK has the most iconic cover, I adore the cover art on Poseidon along with the gorgeous texturing of the original vinyl copy. I also just want to mention the Mac Donald and Giles lp, particularly side one, which almost links the two lps though it has a more 'Traffic' and less 'Crimson' vibe. A lovely lp though.

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Posted By: Boojieboy
Date Posted: July 07 2017 at 17:53
ItWoP has always seemed a bit more consistent and listenable over the debut. Side 1 is especially strong (first 4 tracks). Both have their weaker tracks, IMHO (the drum noodling in Moonchild, the weirdness of The Devil's Triangle).

Underrated? Depends on who's rating it and who's the listener.


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 07 2017 at 18:07
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:



Some criticisms are a bit odd. Pictures Of A City sounds nothing like 21st C Schizoid Man (can't figure where people get this idea and temporarily conclude they are overly influenced by some critic of the build 'em up knock 'em down fraternity).

Interesting comments!  I just saw Crim in concert (Chicago Theater, review posted) and the 8 piece band did "Pictures of a City" during a set, and "Schizoid Man" as an encore piece!  

I think the two works are only tangentially similar, and it is very thrilling to hear "Pictures" live, as it is a rare tune to catch.  They played it in Chicago in their 2014 and 2017 shows.  

Much of Poseidon I can take or leave, but the title track and Pictures are fine.


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 08 2017 at 02:10
Under-rated is obviously related to its older brother ITOTCK


First, ITWOP is a very strange album, and not really a Fripp album (neither was ITCOTCK) as Fripp didn't write any of the original tracks, except for the Peace thingies (where Sinfield can be cŕnsidered a totally equal songwriter partner) and some arrangements and guitar parts on the debut's t/t, which landed him a writing credits.

The A-side of Poseidon is very strangely similar to Court's A-side

Schizoid = Pictures
Wind = Cadence
Poseidon = Epitath or Court (pick either)

Not that it's bad (I'm not saying that they're total clones, but the repitition cannot be anything but intentional ) but nothing new under the sun (unlike the debut, which was a total revolution in music)

On the flipside , outside the Peace thingies, Cat Food is a Lake/McD composition, and TBH, the only really new thing on the album compared to the debut album. And it is so because of Tippett's piano, that it sounds so different.
As for the Holtz Devil's Triangle, it's a rearrangement of a classical thing, and can be considered a cover....


Sooooooooooooo, what's new on Poseidon? Cat Food (5 mins) and those Peace thingies (which I can personally do without), which add up to 4 mins.

Isn't that a little few to be considered as good as Lizard or Court?Confused

Actually, come to think of it, Poseidon might actually be over-rated by most progheads LOL




Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 08 2017 at 10:32
Is Poseidon underrated? No, it simply is not as good or important as the album it followed.

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Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: July 08 2017 at 13:20
Who is the collective entity that rates things? Against what is it rated? Why don't people just listen to music anymore rather than  worrying about how it "rates". Who the f**k cares how something "rates". Doesn't anybody have a mind of their own ? Every KC album is different in some essential way. The first album they had with the same previous lineup was Beat and that was different from the previous one and so on.


Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: July 08 2017 at 13:30
It's crap compared to the début...read that somewhere, must be true.

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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 08 2017 at 13:34
I sometimes go back and forth between preferring the original line up(and the one that did this one)and the Bruford Wetton line up. I think I prefer both equally. In some ways this line up is more under rated. I think they got really weird after Poseidon although there is some very weird stuff on here too(well Devils Triangle is anyway).


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 08 2017 at 21:09
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Under-rated is obviously related to its older brother ITOTCK


First, ITWOP is a very strange album, and not really a Fripp album (neither was ITCOTCK) as Fripp didn't write any of the original tracks, except for the Peace thingies (where Sinfield can be cŕnsidered a totally equal songwriter partner) and some arrangements and guitar parts on the debut's t/t, which landed him a writing credits.

The A-side of Poseidon is very strangely similar to Court's A-side

Schizoid = Pictures
Wind = Cadence
Poseidon = Epitath or Court (pick either)

Not that it's bad (I'm not saying that they're total clones, but the repitition cannot be anything but intentional ) but nothing new under the sun (unlike the debut, which was a total revolution in music)

On the flipside , outside the Peace thingies, Cat Food is a Lake/McD composition, and TBH, the only really new thing on the album compared to the debut album. And it is so because of Tippett's piano, that it sounds so different.
As for the Holtz Devil's Triangle, it's a rearrangement of a classical thing, and can be considered a cover....


Sooooooooooooo, what's new on Poseidon? Cat Food (5 mins) and those Peace thingies (which I can personally do without), which add up to 4 mins.

Isn't that a little few to be considered as good as Lizard or Court?Confused

Actually, come to think of it, Poseidon might actually be over-rated by most progheads LOL




Yeah, but for me the problem is not so much that much of the album copies the previous one, but rather that the songs are essentially not as good. I really don't care for the first two songs, (Pictures and Cadence), and even though I do like Poseidon a lot, I still think Epitaph, and perhas Court too, are better. Still, this 3 songs make a very nice trio that Crimson wouldn't repeat again (I guess the closest would be the studio version of Starless, but then again it goes it's own way on the second half, and Wetton is no Greg Lake).


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 08 2017 at 21:12
Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

Who is the collective entity that rates things? Against what is it rated? Why don't people just listen to music anymore rather than  worrying about how it "rates". Who the f**k cares how something "rates". Doesn't anybody have a mind of their own ? Every KC album is different in some essential way. The first album they had with the same previous lineup was Beat and that was different from the previous one and so on.


But if we wer not to rate the music we like (or don't like), and discuss about it and which ones we like better, then what's the point of being in the forum. The fact that we discuss such things doesn't mean that we don't have a mind of our own, but that we want to express it and read what others think about the same things.


Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 10 2017 at 03:08
What kind of progger doesn't like cadence and pictures. A stupid one lol

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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 10 2017 at 05:25
Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

It's crap compared to the début...read that somewhere, must be true.
LOL rof!

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 10 2017 at 05:28
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Is Poseidon underrated? No, it simply is not as good or important as the album it followed.
Yup, it's simply not as good or important as Lizard. No, that's not it.  Islands then? No. Lark's Tongue? Maybe yes. Maybe no. Starless? Nah, that's not it...

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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 10 2017 at 21:34
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

What kind of progger doesn't like cadence and pictures. A stupid one lol


I think you should take care at who you call stupid. Which should be at nobody at all. But not likind Pictures and Cadence doesn't make me stupid, it just means my tastes are different. I Talk to the Wind isn't among my favourites from the previous one either, but I find Cadence evern more dull, specially because of the notably weaker vocals. And Pictures just sounds noisy, while I do find Schizoid Man much more enjoyable. I won't insult you for liking them, you just have a different taste.


Posted By: felonafan
Date Posted: July 11 2017 at 08:52
To my opinion, this album is really underrated. For me, it is better than debut disc.


Posted By: Stereolab
Date Posted: July 11 2017 at 11:51
Averages out to mediocre... about half very good to excellent, half essentially unlistenable (including the rubbish "Cat Food" -- I don't know what people see in this.)


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 11 2017 at 20:26
Originally posted by Stereolab Stereolab wrote:

Averages out to mediocre... about half very good to excellent, half essentially unlistenable (including the rubbish "Cat Food" -- I don't know what people see in this.)


I guess it's mostly Keith Tippet's jazzy piano. That's what took my attention at first. I did like the song... a bit. Sort of I like certain aspects of it and not so much for other ones. However, I have grown sort of tired of it and got it out of my King Crimson lists.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 11 2017 at 21:17
To me it sounds like leftover tracks from the previous album's sessions. I like it a lot but it lacks that something special that makes it have its own identity unlike "Court" "Lizard" "Red" and pretty much everything that followed. For me it's the weakest of the early albums but still pretty good and a must have in my collection. To be fair it has grown on me more as i've listened to it but there are too many riffs that are recycled from "Court"

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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 12 2017 at 04:08
I love it, end to end. It has a similar feel to the debut, but I don't think it's a step down in quality, although I can understand Fripp wanting a change of direction and feel afterwards. A third album in that vein may have bene pushing it.

As for Cat Food. I love that track.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 17 2017 at 05:23
I've been listening to a lot of KC over the last week, revisiting everything from Lizard to Beat. I don't think they ever recorded a bad album. Some are better tha others obviously, but they don't have an "Invisible Touch" in their catalogue, or a "Union" or "Love Beach" for that matter.

They are consistently good. The trio of 80's albums are possibly their worst, and even they score three stars each IMO.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: August 27 2017 at 15:17
The title track is amazingly beaituful, probably my favourite 69-72 KC track ever.

Of course ITCOTCK is a revolutionary record, a ground-breaking and genre-defining one, but that "Moonchild" noodling ("a space jam"(c)) always kills the vibe for me, as much as "Providence" does on "Red". With song-oriented material THAT strong why put such raw impros on the actual albums?


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 27 2017 at 16:13
I love the debut and the follow up plus their next five albums. I understand the "mirroring complaints" in theory but its of no relevance to me. The whole album is packed with greatness, the titletrack is beautiful and that's the stuff that matters to me. The A-side structurally resembles the A-side of In the Court? Ok, it does. But that happens all the time - why is it of such importance that a 1969 and 1970-album both starts with an aggressive tune, followed by a ballad and an stunning epic? I don't get it. 




Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 27 2017 at 16:41
Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

The title track is amazingly beaituful, probably my favourite 69-72 KC track ever.

Of course ITCOTCK is a revolutionary record, a ground-breaking and genre-defining one, but that "Moonchild" noodling ("a space jam"(c)) always kills the vibe for me, as much as "Providence" does on "Red". With song-oriented material THAT strong why put such raw impros on the actual albums?

"Moonchild" is not noodling at all, as Jean and I pointed out many times. The improvisation mirrors the lyrics; you can hear the Moonchild playing hide and seek, dropping stones on the sundial, you can hear the breaking of dawn (the smile from a sunchild) and so on.


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 27 2017 at 20:45
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I love the debut and the follow up plus their next five albums. I understand the "mirroring complaints" in theory but its of no relevance to me. The whole album is packed with greatness, the titletrack is beautiful and that's the stuff that matters to me. The A-side structurally resembles the A-side of In the Court? Ok, it does. But that happens all the time - why is it of such importance that a 1969 and 1970-album both starts with an aggressive tune, followed by a ballad and an stunning epic? I don't get it. 




For me it's not so much that the second album copies the first one. It's more that every equivalent song is lesser for me than the ones on the debut. The title song I do love, but even that one is not as good as "Epitaph"... but then no other Crimson song will be as good as Epitaph for me (except perhaps Starless). The thing is, I just don't like the songs, except for the title track.


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 28 2017 at 00:41
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I love the debut and the follow up plus their next five albums. I understand the "mirroring complaints" in theory but its of no relevance to me. The whole album is packed with greatness, the titletrack is beautiful and that's the stuff that matters to me. The A-side structurally resembles the A-side of In the Court? Ok, it does. But that happens all the time - why is it of such importance that a 1969 and 1970-album both starts with an aggressive tune, followed by a ballad and an stunning epic? I don't get it. 




For me it's not so much that the second album copies the first one. It's more that every equivalent song is lesser for me than the ones on the debut. The title song I do love, but even that one is not as good as "Epitaph"... but then no other Crimson song will be as good as Epitaph for me (except perhaps Starless). The thing is, I just don't like the songs, except for the title track.

There is at least one song that has no equal on ITCOTCK, and that's "Cat Food". In my opinion the best song on ITWOP. The lyrics, the quirky piano, Greg Lake bellowing out his vocal lines - just great!


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: August 28 2017 at 14:10
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

"Moonchild" is not noodling at all, as Jean and I pointed out many times. The improvisation mirrors the lyrics; you can hear the Moonchild playing hide and seek, dropping stones on the sundial, you can hear the breaking of dawn (the smile from a sunchild) and so on.

Oddly enough I recall seeing a Classic Rock article where both Lake and McDonald (if memory serves me well) confirm that it was a last-minute-added jam to stretch the playing time (35 minutes for LP didn't seem enough in 1969 smh?)


Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: August 28 2017 at 14:35
Not a go-to Crimso album for me. Lizard and Islands are surely better listens.

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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 28 2017 at 15:35
Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

"Moonchild" is not noodling at all, as Jean and I pointed out many times. The improvisation mirrors the lyrics; you can hear the Moonchild playing hide and seek, dropping stones on the sundial, you can hear the breaking of dawn (the smile from a sunchild) and so on.

Oddly enough I recall seeing a Classic Rock article where both Lake and McDonald (if memory serves me well) confirm that it was a last-minute-added jam to stretch the playing time (35 minutes for LP didn't seem enough in 1969 smh?)

That's not a contradiction at all.


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: August 28 2017 at 15:47
One of the reasons why 'Moonchild' is reviled (perhaps to strong a word) goes back to the first Island label vinyl pressings where there was a distinct problem with the pressing quality.. on a track with so many quiet (indeed almost silent) sections, this crackle and hiss was sadly rather invasive so lots of people skipped it. Its one (one of the few in my opinion) situations where digital transfer and restoration has allowed the original 'Improvisation/ jam' to be heard as it was intended. Many of the early Charisma lps suffered from this too.

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Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: August 28 2017 at 17:24
I thought we were talking about ITWOP but it's interesting to note that the first  part of Moonchild appeared on A Young Person's Guide To King Crimson. That's a weird compilation. Bought it before the days of the internet for Groon and I Talk To The Wind and to get the book back in the 70s. Peace and Cadence & Cascade are on there as well as Cat Food. So I guess Fripp thought it was better than Lizard back then. 


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 28 2017 at 17:40
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I love the debut and the follow up plus their next five albums. I understand the "mirroring complaints" in theory but its of no relevance to me. The whole album is packed with greatness, the titletrack is beautiful and that's the stuff that matters to me. The A-side structurally resembles the A-side of In the Court? Ok, it does. But that happens all the time - why is it of such importance that a 1969 and 1970-album both starts with an aggressive tune, followed by a ballad and an stunning epic? I don't get it. 




For me it's not so much that the second album copies the first one. It's more that every equivalent song is lesser for me than the ones on the debut. The title song I do love, but even that one is not as good as "Epitaph"... but then no other Crimson song will be as good as Epitaph for me (except perhaps Starless). The thing is, I just don't like the songs, except for the title track.

There is at least one song that has no equal on ITCOTCK, and that's "Cat Food". In my opinion the best song on ITWOP. The lyrics, the quirky piano, Greg Lake bellowing out his vocal lines - just great!


Oh yeah, Cat Food is good too, specially because of Keith Tippet's piano. There's also a live version with the Wetton era line-up. It sounds stronger and heavier, with bass and drums that I like better... but sadly, of course, that outstanding piano is missing.


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 28 2017 at 21:31
Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

The title track is amazingly beaituful, probably my favourite 69-72 KC track ever.

Of course ITCOTCK is a revolutionary record, a ground-breaking and genre-defining one, but that "Moonchild" noodling ("a space jam"(c)) always kills the vibe for me, as much as "Providence" does on "Red". With song-oriented material THAT strong why put such raw impros on the actual albums?
Crimson was all about improvisation. Nearly all the material on ITCOCK evolved through improv. They were known for that throughout that period, later through the Lark's era too. I don't know that they did much improv in development of In the Wake of Poseidon. I've often wondered how Crimson became envy of other bands that wanted to design pre-arranged arrangements. Crimson was the antithesis of that, unless In the Wake of Poseidon spoiled their association with improv by recycling the overall countours of ITCOCK. Thinking out loud here. BTW, Providence is the best thing on Red. It reminds me of Genesis' The Waiting Room. Something in the air in '74?

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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)



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