A Washington Post Reporter on his Love of Prog
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Topic: A Washington Post Reporter on his Love of Prog
Posted By: zenarcher
Subject: A Washington Post Reporter on his Love of Prog
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 07:55
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He says prog was rock's "best" rebellion: http://www.vulture.com/2017/05/david-weigel-prog-rock-book.html
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Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 14:20
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http://www.vulture.com/2017/05/david-weigel-prog-rock-book.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.vulture.com/2017/05/david-weigel-prog-rock-book.html ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 15:08
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This guy is off his rocker........The rantings of a raving lunatic -------------   
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Posted By: UselessPassion
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 15:10
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"In the age of Adderall, it’s hard to find a substantial audience that’s willing to.." Weigel's only 35. This is definitive proof that prog rock accelerates the aging process and turns even young people into stubborn old cliches. We must ban prog! Save the children from Old Man Syndrome! ------------- [Hyperreflective paradigm breaking profundity goes here] |
Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 15:13
| Nobody really gets it. It was the record companies buying each other out that kills music. It's always been the mighty dollar not what people liked. Look, the guy even says that a lot of people who had Zeppelin albums also probably had ELP albums. The masses have always been sheep no matter what you are talking about, TV, food, cleaning products, cars blah blah blah . No style of music killed prog. Big business just moved the masses in a different direction. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 15:17
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Heh.....I think he's spot on. ;) ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 17:36
The 'masses' may often have bad taste or even be on the dumb side, but they most certainly are not sheep. People buy the music they enjoy, period. If prog sold well in the '70s it's because a strong rock market had matured and been primed by the Art and Psych movements to be open to what prog became. If anything, prog was a most unlikely and unsustainable style of music and not what record executives would try to shove down peoples' throat. It did well for the same reason metal and disco and Pop did well: people liked it and were willing to shell-out ten bucks for some wax. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Kepler62 wrote:Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 18:07
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Correct...people buy music because they like it. I am a perfect example of that philosophy....I don't own any Beatles records. Prog rock has never been for the casual listener. -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 19:11
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There's one - and just one - thing I agree with him on in the interview. Where he mentions that maybe prog was too 'European' and lacked soul. As I have mentioned before, before I got into prog, I used to listen to the music of Illayaraja who was able to adapt Western classical devices AND rock/funk grooves to Indian folk music so that gave his work a spontaneity I have rarely if ever come across in prog. Maybe in some of Yes's music and GG starts out sounding very infectious (because it is so groovy) before it quickly gets pretty dense. I don't mean that in a bad way but I can see how that might limit prog's appeal because it really requires perseverance from the listener before he even gets to the point of sort of liking the music, let alone loving it. On the other hand, LZ weren't trying to push boundaries and were just a loud rock band? And Wetton is the best he can come up with when he is asked to name a good prog lyricist? Sorry, basis those assertions, I would have to question just how well informed he is. It's ok if he was just discussing music on a forum like this but for somebody who has written a book on prog, I would expect more research.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 20:44
| I saw this on PE. Interesting. I'm going to print it out and read it at some point. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 20:46
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I might buy his book, it sounds quite interesting ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 21:05
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Ok, I did wind up reading parts of it. Two things (for now anyway). One is he thinks Led Zeppelin were "just" a loud rock band who didn't push any boundaries. What a bunch of crap is that. I disagree with that also. LZ might not have been true prog but they did expand things in the seventies much the same way the Beatles did in the sixties(imo). This guy obviously never heard Houses of the Holy, Presence or Physical Graffiti not to mention the unfairly maligned In through the Out Door. Also, he refers to John Wetton as a lyricist. To the best of my knowledge JW did not write any of the lyrics for the KC albums he appeared on. The lyrics were written by Richard Palmer James.
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 21:55
Me too. I think it'll be a good read.
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Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: May 25 2017 at 21:59
There is also no Palmer-James credit for "One More Red Nightmare", so I assume JW wrote the lyrics there as well. ------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: May 26 2017 at 02:55
| Nice to see Triumvirat get their just due, not to be taken for granted in the grand scheme of things. |
Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: May 26 2017 at 03:12
| Yeah for all kit's worth. I sometimes use Wikipedia as a guideline. Buzz Osbourne of the famous prog band the Melvins was asked about the Melvins' entry in Wilipedia and a lot of ot was just fabrication. back on topic. I think that the only book on prog rock that I've read that matters is Macan's Rocking The Classics. That's all you really need. After 1974 or 75 prog had pretty much run it's course and whether anyone wants to accept it or not it it's the industry and economics that sways the music consumer. Bob Fripp did the right thing when he ended King Crimson " For ever and ever " . When it did come back in '80 it wasn'r any more a prog band than Genesis after ATTW3. One think I agree with the guy with is when he talks about Led Zeppelin. They were stealing sh*t right from the get go. Just a band that turned the blues up to eleven that was gobbled up by the music consuming public. Gotta listen to something without digging any deeper than the local FM radio station that plays the hell out of three or 4 songs. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 26 2017 at 04:25
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"Lovers of Prog" forever try to cast this genre as being above commercial interests. Prog was big business in the early seventies. It helped to found Virgin Records via Mike Oldfield and made Atco/Atlantic a fortune with Yes and Genesis. Atlantic head Ahmet Ertegun kept a tape of Yes, Genesis or Phil Collins' "In The Air Tonight" in his office. He would play the tape after hearing a new artist's material and say "Come back when you can top that. That's what sells." ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 26 2017 at 14:05
No but I'm sure most people think of them that way. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 27 2017 at 06:51
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 27 2017 at 07:56
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^ erm..wouldn't more people have heard it if Jansch had been accredited properly? ------------- 
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 27 2017 at 08:09
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 27 2017 at 08:23
Right, so you think more press by NOT being credited with the arrangement was generated than that which would have been generated by Jansch actually being credited with the arrangement (which no-one can quantify because he wasn't credited with the arrangement) I'm not trying to be difficult here Steve but no-one is buying that an accredited arranger of a tune covered by maybe the biggest rock band on the planet to date would still remain as obscure thereafter as you claim.  -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 27 2017 at 08:37
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Jansch's plight made all the trades at the time like Melody Maker and New Musical Express and was even championed by other artist's like Neil Young. Like it or not, Jansch would have been no more better known than Jake Holmes for composing "Dazed and Confused." I don't recall him becoming a household name. Do you? This discussion is getting silly. Let's move on. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 27 2017 at 08:46
Agreed, you're full of it  -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 28 2017 at 18:31
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those New Yardbirds do seem to be a universal point of contention in rock; without doubt they were shameless thieves, to the point where I actually don't know of one Zeppelin cut that was not in some way an altered version of someone else's music. In a way, they became the world's greatest cover band. But they were so shrewd in their pilferage, so careful with arranging and mixing, that the quiet usurping and transforming of other peoples' compositions was often imperceptible (even to musicians). The Beatles used this covert technique of metamorphosis frequently, taking old American tunes and making them fresh and hip. The question is: if you're an exceptional thief who can launder their wares with little notice and give listeners something they like, is that legitimate ? Keep in mind composers for centuries have been doing this. Historically, musical composition is more about synthesis than it is creation, and that is modern music's dirty little secret. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: May 28 2017 at 18:41
| I guess it's too late for Bach, Brahms or Beethoven 's to sue . Never investigated it but a hell of a lot of classical music was hijacked by prog rockers back in the seventies. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 30 2017 at 04:10
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 30 2017 at 08:22
It wouldn't be an exaggeration to suggest that most popular rock music as is, would be unrecognisable without the grand larceny/assimilation (you choose) of black american musical forms by white musicians. This clearly doesn't mitigate cheating a fellow artist out of valuable income or accreditation. Best analogy I can think of here is the diving or 'simulation of fouls' that goes on in modern soccer which some people say is just 'part of the game' and that it requires great skill to 'hoodwink' the ref: A'int that tantamount to to saying that a clever and resourceful burglar doesn't deserve to be caught if they steal your sh*t? -------------
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 30 2017 at 08:59
Yes, we all get the recompense from 'popularised by Zep' part m'lud. I think the issue with the Jansch arrangement was that his own original recording (on the Jack Orion album) was not considered to qualify as his own protective copyright (as the basic melody is a traditional one and therefore in the public domain) I also cannot find any evidence that he even sought legal action but you are better informed than I. As an aside, there is also anecdotal evidence that Page was taught the Jansch arrangement by Al Stewart which dovetails somewhat into the 'trad arr' oral tradition where many blues/folk tunes were based on older songs of unknown origin which were in turn based on even older tunes etc . Yep, copyright law is a hornet's nest and I don't know why I'm even bothering to discuss this as I heartily loathe Zep, Pentangle, Al Stewart and Jansch pretty much with equanimity. Neither of us would have made High St lawyers -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 30 2017 at 11:46
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I believe that I would have made a damn fine ambulance chaser, but I digress. I can only go by what I've read in Colin Harper's bio on Jansch (a dark and brooding character if ever there was one) titled Dazzling Stranger. According to Harper, Jansch felt that taking on the Zeppelin machine would be a waste of his time and money, so he just decided not to bother. Arrangements are copyrighted, but are also very hard to prove in a court of law. I appreciate that Jansch/Zep/Pantangle are not your cup of tea, so, your response is sincerely appreciated. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 30 2017 at 16:58
Yes they were cheaters. I would say a closer analogy might be a clever burglar steals your sh*t, examines it inside & out, returns it to you just as mysteriously, and then a month later you see cheap knockoffs of the denim jacket you so artfully decorated over years. Foul play but just removed enough to make it legit. Oh and there's the hollow "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"-- of course anyone who's ever been 'imitated' knows the feelings of resentment and frustration with that kind of flattery. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 31 2017 at 01:29
Yep, maybe that is a better analogy. Of course the whole point being made here is that it ain't just Zep who are guilty of plagiarizing those who cannot really protect themselves. Different story in the classical realm however for those feckless souls like the late Keith Emerson who was contacted by both the Bartok and Janacek estates about his nicking huge unaccredited chunks of Allegro Barbaro and Sinfonietta for ELP's debut in 1970.-------------
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