Now don't kill me, I love Yes and I think their music is just as whimsical as it is brillient however I cant help feeling they have done just too many epics. I think they have diminished the importance of their epics by making so many of them. When I think of other great prog bands their epics are always the ones that stick out as brillient (Pink Floyd, Genesis, ELP etc).

Yes has done so many that they just dont jump out as major highlights of their career which i think truly shows that they have made some bad ones which is the total opposite of what an epic should be(tales esp).

fender101 wrote: Now don't kill me, I love Yes and I think their music is just as whimsical as it is brillient however I cant help feeling they have done just too many epics. I think they have diminished the importance of their epics by making so many of them. When I think of other great prog bands their epics are always the ones that stick out as brillient (Pink Floyd, Genesis, ELP etc). Yes has done so many that they just dont jump out as major highlights of their career which i think truly shows that they have made some bad ones which is the total opposite of what an epic should be(tales esp).

Tales isn't supposed to be taken as an epic, it's a concept album, and a fine one at that in my opinion.

I honestly don't think they've ever put out a "bad" epic, but hell, i'm a huge Yes fan, so i'm biased

Seems a bit like saying Beethoven wrote too many symphonies to me!

(One underrated Yes epic is "Endless dream" from "Talk")

Easy Livin wrote: Seems a bit like saying Beethoven wrote too many symphonies to me! (One underrated Yes epic is "Endless dream" from "Talk")

'Endless Dream' is excellent, I agree. I think it's just anti Rabin feeling that closes many peoples minds to this track.

Cinema wrote: Ty1020 wrote: Depends what you consider an epic. Personally, when I think of Yes' epics, the only three I really consider are Close to the Edge, The Gates of Delirium, and Awaken. If you count TFTO then I guess it gets somewhat excessive, but I prefer to think of the songs from that album as a whole piece of work rather than four seperate "epics". Regardless, the three I previously mentioned are among my favourite songs of all time. I agree completely. However, I would also add the following to the list of Yes epics: -- Mind Drive -- That That Is

That's interesting you say that Cinema; I was thinking just the same thing before I got to your post....on the Keys album, they, along with 'Be The One' are the stand out tracks...the shorter ones really are substandard, and its the same with 'Homeworld' on The Ladder...maybe they are just more at home with the epics...so I'm not complaining!!

Luke wrote: Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces.

I wouldn't go spreading your oppinion about Gates too loudly in this forum young Luke, you might find yourself tied to a telegraph pole wearing nothing but your undies...

fandango wrote: Luke wrote: Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces. I wouldn't go spreading your oppinion about Gates too loudly in this forum young Luke, you might find yourself tied to a telegraph pole wearing nothing but your undies...

thank you for saying i'm young, that's really nice someone finally said that. Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... instead of that we got collection of sounds, pretty good collection but still just sounds.

@ Logos.........I'm right!!!!!!

@Luke........I hardly agree with anything you ever say, so I might as well take no notice

@Fandango....Hello!

Luke wrote: fandango wrote: Luke wrote: Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces. I wouldn't go spreading your oppinion about Gates too loudly in this forum young Luke, you might find yourself tied to a telegraph pole wearing nothing but your undies...   thank you for saying i'm young, that's really nice someone finally said that. Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... instead of that we got collection of sounds, pretty good collection but still just sounds.

Man you are so up your own ass!

Snow Dog wrote: Luke wrote: fandango wrote: Luke wrote: Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces. I wouldn't go spreading your oppinion about Gates too loudly in this forum young Luke, you might find yourself tied to a telegraph pole wearing nothing but your undies...   thank you for saying i'm young, that's really nice someone finally said that. Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... instead of that we got collection of sounds, pretty good collection but still just sounds. Man you are so up your own ass!

so you expected i would come and start kissing up? if i don't like something i say it. simple as that.

Luke wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Luke wrote: fandango wrote: Luke wrote: Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces. I wouldn't go spreading your oppinion about Gates too loudly in this forum young Luke, you might find yourself tied to a telegraph pole wearing nothing but your undies...   thank you for saying i'm young, that's really nice someone finally said that. Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... instead of that we got collection of sounds, pretty good collection but still just sounds. Man you are so up your own ass!   so you expected i would come and start kissing up? if i don't like something i say it. simple as that.

No you don't just say it, you slate it!  Calling Gates just sounds though????!!! Plain ridiculous!

You said

Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music...

It has all of these in abundance, I don't understand why you can't see it!!

Snow Dog wrote: Luke wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Luke wrote: fandango wrote: Luke wrote: Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces. I wouldn't go spreading your oppinion about Gates too loudly in this forum young Luke, you might find yourself tied to a telegraph pole wearing nothing but your undies...   thank you for saying i'm young, that's really nice someone finally said that. Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... instead of that we got collection of sounds, pretty good collection but still just sounds. Man you are so up your own ass!   so you expected i would come and start kissing up? if i don't like something i say it. simple as that. No you don't just say it, you slate it!  Calling Gates just sounds though????!!! Plain ridiculous! You said Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... It has all of these in abundance, I don't understand why you can't see it!!

i'm not fidning concept there, it's just something about to be concept maybe they should work more on it, ok maybe there's progress cos music is definitely more violent than before but due to that music is just lame. and not enough music as for that epic song.  

Ty1020 wrote: Trouserpress wrote: Luke wrote: fandango wrote: Luke wrote: Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces. I wouldn't go spreading your oppinion about Gates too loudly in this forum young Luke, you might find yourself tied to a telegraph pole wearing nothing but your undies...   thank you for saying i'm young, that's really nice someone finally said that. Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... instead of that we got collection of sounds, pretty good collection but still just sounds. Gates is actually one of Yes' most easily understood epics, far more so than the spirtual claptrap of Tales. Gates of Delerium is an anti-war song. The first part deals with the people preparing for war, their doubts and fears. The second part, that loud jazzy instrumental section, is the war itself. The music is violent and explosive, filled with screaming and metallic clashing - isn't it obvious that this is musical war? The final part, "Soon", is Anderson's personal uplifting appeal for this madness to end. Yes never recorded a more lucid and moving piece. Concept by the bucketload, mate. Looks like Luke decided to ignore this post, probably because there's no reasonable argument one could come up with to deny it. Gates is a fantastic piece of music, simple as that.

no it's because i'm too lazy to read all posts, and btw i love apocalyptic lyrics so is it reason to like music because of apocalyptic lyrics? pure nonsense, the more important is music and music drives me, if lyrics are good that's bonus.

Luke wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Luke wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Luke wrote: fandango wrote: Luke wrote: Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces. I wouldn't go spreading your oppinion about Gates too loudly in this forum young Luke, you might find yourself tied to a telegraph pole wearing nothing but your undies...   thank you for saying i'm young, that's really nice someone finally said that. Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... instead of that we got collection of sounds, pretty good collection but still just sounds. Man you are so up your own ass!   so you expected i would come and start kissing up? if i don't like something i say it. simple as that. No you don't just say it, you slate it!  Calling Gates just sounds though????!!! Plain ridiculous! You said Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... It has all of these in abundance, I don't understand why you can't see it!! i'm not fidning concept there, it's just something about to be concept maybe they should work more on it, ok maybe there's progress cos music is definitely more violent than before but due to that music is just lame. and not enough music as for that epic song.

Lame, lame, lame, is that all you can say all the time? How is the music lame? Sounds pretty exciting to me!

Trouserpress wrote: Luke wrote: Ty1020 wrote: Trouserpress wrote: Luke wrote: fandango wrote: Luke wrote: Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces. I wouldn't go spreading your oppinion about Gates too loudly in this forum young Luke, you might find yourself tied to a telegraph pole wearing nothing but your undies...   thank you for saying i'm young, that's really nice someone finally said that. Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... instead of that we got collection of sounds, pretty good collection but still just sounds. Gates is actually one of Yes' most easily understood epics, far more so than the spirtual claptrap of Tales. Gates of Delerium is an anti-war song. The first part deals with the people preparing for war, their doubts and fears. The second part, that loud jazzy instrumental section, is the war itself. The music is violent and explosive, filled with screaming and metallic clashing - isn't it obvious that this is musical war? The final part, "Soon", is Anderson's personal uplifting appeal for this madness to end. Yes never recorded a more lucid and moving piece. Concept by the bucketload, mate. Looks like Luke decided to ignore this post, probably because there's no reasonable argument one could come up with to deny it. Gates is a fantastic piece of music, simple as that.   no it's because i'm too lazy to read all posts, and btw i love apocalyptic lyrics so is it reason to like music because of apocalyptic lyrics? pure nonsense, the more important is music and music drives me, if lyrics are good that's bonus. Eh?! The point I was countering was that you said Gatse of Delerium HAD NO CONCEPT. THIS IS UNTRUE, as I and others have shown. A concept, in fact, that is found not only in the lyrics but the music itself. As I pointed out, the instrumental middle section is a musical representation of war. Are you completely unable to admit you're ever wrong?

if you hear the concept congratulations, really maybe i should drop some acid maybe that would help. ok it is concept for you for many others to me it's too chaotic.

Ty1020 wrote: Luke wrote: if you hear the concept congratulations, really maybe i should drop some acid maybe that would help. ok it is concept for you for many others to me it's too chaotic. What is that supposed to mean? It's really one of the most obvious concepts I've ever heard in a prog epic. Moreover, to say that it's "too chaotic" leads me to believe that you really haven't listened to very much prog. Sure, it's chaotic by Yes standards, but it's still a relatively straightforward song in the grand scheme of things. If you had said the same thing about Sound Chaser I might have been able to see where you were coming from (although I would have disagreed, as it's one of my favourite Yes songs), but Gates? I don't think so.

trust me i heard a lot of prog music. i love Emerson Lake & Palmer avant grade trips but there is something about ELP music Yes have never had. the answer is Keith Emerson.

Ty1020 wrote: Luke wrote: i don't care about Stravinsky and it really doesn't matter to me what comparsion anyone finds, i listen to the music and if i like it i say i like it if i don't i say i don't so let's not fit philosophy for it. Go ahead and say you don't like it... I'd have no problem with that, but that's not what you did. You tried to claim that one of the greatest musical achievements of our time was "just a bunch of noise" and was devoid of music, progress, and concept. That's insane.

to me music is not sacred if it's for you please accept my condolences.

How could you be arguing about Gates having no concept? Have you heard Close to the Edge!?! Or any other Yes song besides Gates for that matter?

Snow Dog wrote: To get back on topic, I don't think that Yes has made too many Epics. Not enough maybe, but too many ...no!

I agree!  Yes needs to make another yummy epic!

Yes Epics are for me, as good as prog gets.

That, and crazy Fripp guitar riffin.

and maybe Tony Banks flying on his keyboards.

Well, i like the Yes epics the best.

King of Loss wrote: Snow Dog wrote: To get back on topic, I don't think that Yes has made too many Epics. Not enough maybe, but too many ...no! I agree!  Yes needs to make another yummy epic!

Absolutely!  The main problem I find with some of the later Yes albums is the lack of epics.  Maybe they still have it in them to create an epic like The Revealing Science of God.  That'd be nice! 

Isnt this like saying "I've eaten too many steaks" or "i've had enough chocolate for the rest of my life"..???

am lost, obviously

Luke wrote: fandango wrote: Luke wrote: Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces.   thank you for saying i'm young, that's really nice someone finally said that. Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... instead of that we got collection of sounds, pretty good collection but still just sounds.

 You better watch your back, man! You dont talk that way about Gates of Delirium!!! Yes best epic and song as well!

And to the question Yes epics: No, I dont think that there are too many epics...I also used to think that if there are too many epics then they dont get that much attention...but look at Close to the edge...its the number one album in this site...and in prog in general! Look how I defend Gates! Look how some bring Endless Dream up to discussion!...I say...yes epics? BRING EM OOOOOOOOOON!!!!!!

Luke wrote: Ty1020 wrote: Luke wrote: if you hear the concept congratulations, really maybe i should drop some acid maybe that would help. ok it is concept for you for many others to me it's too chaotic. What is that supposed to mean? It's really one of the most obvious concepts I've ever heard in a prog epic. Moreover, to say that it's "too chaotic" leads me to believe that you really haven't listened to very much prog. Sure, it's chaotic by Yes standards, but it's still a relatively straightforward song in the grand scheme of things. If you had said the same thing about Sound Chaser I might have been able to see where you were coming from (although I would have disagreed, as it's one of my favourite Yes songs), but Gates? I don't think so.   trust me i heard a lot of prog music. i love Emerson Lake & Palmer avant grade trips but there is something about ELP music Yes have never had. the answer is Keith Emerson.

ah...you Emerson, Lake & Palmer fans are so up tight!...So what if they didnt had Emerson...its a good thing they didnt had Emerson hehehehe

Wow, this degenerated into a free-for-all opinion battle fast. Stay clear here, folks. Then again, what'd you expect from the title "Too many Yes epics"?

This thread is now condemned. Stay far far away. And by the way, this proves that it's not just prog metal that's the "problem". Segregating genres won't get you guys anywhere. A battle is now being waged over humble Yes. Geez, like beating the crap out of each other for world peace!

Seriously, go read a book or something.

What about Machine Messiah? Would you consider that an epic?

Eddy wrote: omg dude, thats What made YES so good! My favortie prog is when it Feels epic and important! it feels like a journey rather then listening to a song. It makes it so more emotional. The best of prog is The epics, and as long as there good, the more the better dude. JESUS!

I agree that a good epic cant be beat but Yes turn 10 individual mediocre chord progressions into a song and that is just a bit, may i say pretentious (hell I guess thats wehat prog is about anyway)

fender101 wrote: Now don't kill me, I love Yes and I think their music is just as whimsical as it is brillient however I cant help feeling they have done just too many epics. I think they have diminished the importance of their epics by making so many of them. When I think of other great prog bands their epics are always the ones that stick out as brillient (Pink Floyd, Genesis, ELP etc). Yes has done so many that they just dont jump out as major highlights of their career which i think truly shows that they have made some bad ones which is the total opposite of what an epic should be(tales esp).

Fender, I think you're a bit daft on this one.

Too me, the epic in general is overrated. But with Yes, much of the band's best music is contained within epics. I mean, CttE set the high water mark, because it contained the band's best music.

As for others, the second half of The Remembering, the "climax" of Awaken, the post-battle section of Gates are simply some of the best music Yes has ever made, period. Sure, I dig short songs Long Distance Runaround, Cinema, Let's Pretend, etc. But there's more classic Yes moments contained within epics, which seem to bring out the best in Yes.

As further proof, CttE is better than Siberian Khatru, Awaken has better music within it than Wonderous Stories, etc., and Endless Dream has better music within it than the awful Real Love, State of Play and Walls.

And finally, the best music Yes has made since the 70s is contained within 3 epics: That That Is, Mind Drive, and Homeworld. I mean, minute by minute, Mind Drive's music just kicks the rest of KTA2's ass.

I think the one point where we agree is Topo. I reckon Topo has about 30 minutes of good music - there's a lot of padding, esp side 3.

Guests wrote: fandango wrote: [QUOTE=Luke]Gates Of Delirium is even worse than Tales. i wonder how is it possible Yes created stuff like Going For The One which is really good and contains long pieces. I wouldn't go spreading your oppinion about Gates too loudly in this forum young Luke, you might find yourself tied to a telegraph pole wearing nothing but your undies...

thank you for saying i'm young, that's really nice someone finally said that. Gates would be really good if it had concept, progress and music... instead of that we got collection of sounds, pretty good collection but still just sounds.

[/QUO 'Gates' is a classic piece of music which takes you on a helter skelter ride through the mayhem of war.The music matches and reflects this perfectly.If the listener cannot hear the concept then there is something lacking somewhere in that listener.You don't have to like it, that is down to choice, but to say that there is no concept is plain daft.As much as I like ELP they could never write music consistently like The Yes Album,Fragile,Close to the Edge,Tales,Relayer and Going for the One' this was Prog at it's peak being played and written by a band at it's peak.While I'm having my rant I would add 'Heart of the Sunrise' into the epic catogorie.But 'CTE' and 'Awaken' surpass all that Yes's Peers have done.

Hey Fragile, great to see you around again!

Your right about "Gates" of course, in fact even if it was an instrumental, the concept would still metaphorically slap you in the face.