Russia has gone insane.....
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Topic: Russia has gone insane.....
Posted By: Blacksword
Subject: Russia has gone insane.....
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 00:47
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..or has it? In an apparent North Korean style exercise in screaming hysteria and paranoia, Moscow has mobilised 40 million civilians, including the evacuation of 12 million people from cities in an unprecedented civil defence exercise; a rehearsal for a nuclear attack. Moscow has warned the population that nuclear war with the west could be imminent. Despite the scale and dramatic back story to this 'drill' western TV news media has been pretty much silent about the whole thing. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-nuclear-weapon-training-attack-radiation-moscow-vladimir-putin-a7345461.html" rel="nofollow - The Independent As the relationship between Russia and the west nosedives further is the world - to quote Putin - "being pulled in an irreversable direction" or is he merely stirring up anti western feeling at home for political reasons? Does anyone have concerns about where the Syria and Ukraine crisis is leading?? Has anyone even noticed the gathering storm clouds? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Replies:
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 00:53
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Re: the thread title.............. SO HAVE I !!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 02:37
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Once again we see that Mr. Putin is a good man and cares about his people, while Obama and his cronies leave the American citizens completely unprepared for the inevitable. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 04:12
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Making your citizens paranoid with fear has always been a decent tool to tighten, or keep, a demagogue's grip on power, or to send "messages" to one's "enemies". This strikes me as being no different. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 04:44
This basically means US and Russia are informally fighting a war already in Syria though they choose not to call it that. 'tis the season of 'informal' wars; fire at each other like mad without declaring war. Two South Asian nations with an age old rivalry are also at it. When you have a whole week of ceasefire violations every freaking day, it's a war in all but name. Nice!
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Blacksword wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 07:09
lot of questions there   1) Yes - standard dictator/strongman tactics.. their economy is going to sh*t...so distract the population with fear and hypernationalism. 2) No - Hillary will hopefully do what Obama chose not to.. fully assert our power there arm the rebels and squash Assad and dare Russia to do a goddamned thing about it. Rebuilding Syria will be...a challenge.. but you can't start it until you have swept the slate clean. 3) Hell yes - much like Korea... that is a flashpoint that can engulf the world. 4) Yep - hard to ignore actually as the storm has brewing for years. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 10:26
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You make point 2 sound very easy! I don't think Putin is going to back down on this one. Playing chicken with him is not a good idea. I certainly don't think it's worth risking nuclear war over. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 15:00
I could be completely wrong... but don't think I am. Putin is a thug.. but a very intelligent and savvy one. Thus the difference between the Ukraine and Syria. Directly interfering with his intentions on the Ukraine is playing with hellfire.. Syria.. if he was unstable yeah.. but I don't think he is. It isn't worth it to him, and if HIllary draws the same conclusion she'll force the issue. Bullies continue to be such until they are punched in the nose. He has to be stood up to... perhaps before he moves into areas where it becomes even more dangerous, if not impossible to reign him in. Easy? OF course not.. but light years easily and far less dangerous than the Ukrainian-Russian conflict could be. First step... and the easiest.. . implement the damned no-fly zone with international of course backing. And pull a Turkey and shoot their asses out of the sky if ignore warnings. Without the backbone of Russian air power... Assad would likely collapse ... directly arming the rebels would likely expedite that. It wouldn't clean nor wthout blood.. but what is the alternative.. letting the situation there continue for years to come. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 15:21
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kinda makes one long for Khrushchev.....as dicey as those years were, he once took a tour of the USA and I believe he sincerely wanted to get to know regular Americans, to an extent he did although it was hard for security reasons to let him truly mingle...but I think he got to see enough of us to know we were decent folks. and maybe that little bit of connection helped. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 15:36
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It is far more a global community now Jim than it ever was then. I don't think Putin lacks for understanding.. even liking his share of Americans. I think the storm per se is that he is power mad thug.. to hold power he has played the nationalism card on his card and regaining the glory and 'respect' of the old USSR. Keeping power is likely becoming more difficult due to the economic and financial crisis Russia is experiencing. So what to do... divert attention of the masses from that.. to other things. I don't see him or Russia as an enemy or direct threat to us. I don't think many do these days. Nor should they IMO. Where he and Russia become dangerous is how to handle them. Pushing too hard where one should not could be catastrophic.. not pushing back at all could be equally as much for not dissading him from putting the west into a position where they felt the need to push back. Was the Crimea worth war with the west.. he made the bet it wasn't.. but does he have it within him to contain his expansionist notions for there could come a place where we, and western Europe, might feel they have no choice but to intervene and that is what is scary. The sooner Russia gets rid of him, or he simply dies, Russia can get back to being a part of the international community.. not a pariah.. not the playground thug.. and the world could sleep just a bit more deeply. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 16:27
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I thought Putin was very popular (in Russia)....but maybe its changed. Haven't paid that much attention lately. Certainly never thought he was in jeopardy of losing power though. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 16:30
I don't think he is, Jim, but, like most nutters in positions of power, he probably is deeply paranoid that he might do soon. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 16:46
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they have some real looming financial and economic issues coming to roost there...the ruble will worth less than toilet paper in a few years unless oil suddenly skyrockets back up or Putin launches severe austerity measures (military?). From what I have read I do think he is quite intelligent and yeah.. probably does fear for his cushy seat of power.. does he really have to? Hard to say... but trying to divert attention from it again likely explains some his actions. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 23:28
Many US politicians share that view on the no fly zone, but interestingly many top generals are reluctant and believe certainly that enforcing a NFZ over the whole country would involve actually going to war with Russia and Syria, which they want to avoid. This was certainly the view of Gen Joseph Dunford. This weekend France and Russia both tabled resolutions at the UNSC which involved no fly zones from their respective positions. The French resolution was not passed. I don't know how the vote went on Russia's resolution, but I suspect it was vetoed by the west as it required rebel forces in Aleppo to surrender in return for a safe passage out of the city. None of this has been very visible in western news media. I had to watch the French resolution being debated live at the UN, on Russian TV!! It's worth remembering also - putting aside the rights and wrongs for now - that the Russians are in Syria at the invitation of the Syrian government, and in a global context it's also worth considering how the US would react if Russia were paying terrorists to overthrow the Saudi regime. Russian action in Syria has been appalling, but if one stops blindly supporting their team for a moment and looks at the bigger picture it's not unreasonable to regard the Russian action as logical and predictable if we were to apply our own standards in how we deal with threats to our own strategic and economic interests abroad. IMO. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 05:43
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interesting... definitely hadn't read that here. Then again pretty much everything is covered in the pond scum of our circus of a Presidential election. that said.. one of the main reasons I support Hillary is she is hawk .... but knows geo-political realities... but more than that. She has a real heart and soul... especially for children... and I suspect like many of us.. feels deeply the suffering going on there. We lost our way with using our power for the wrong reasons and the wrong places... when we are at our best.. we are kicking ass for all the right reasons and in the right places. There is no easy solution... but that is not to say that one can not be found. Perhaps Hillary's goon squad can add another body to Killary's list hahahah.. and make Assad disappear.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 06:56
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^^ one thing though. You really can't make the case that Syria is something Russia would go to war over. It isn't their backyard.. not part of the old USSR.. it is a matter of international prestige. The solution perhaps is giving incentive to the Russians to adandon Assad. They have to know as much as anyone he is ..sooner or later.. going to end up against a wall or hanging from a streetlight. Give them incentive to abandon him. The key there might be the finanical crisis which again is the one thing that couuld threaten Putin's hold on power. Make an arrangement with him, we do this.. you don't veto a UN resolution for the no-fly zone, and his cover to abandon him is merely complying. hard to say... but again why did Putin and Russia try so hard to influence our election for Trump. Sure there were probably some seriously shaddy business contacts that our press hasn't found yet.. but perhaps more than that. He saw.. most of us here saw that Trump was a goldfish in the shark tank of geo-politics. He wasn't standing up to Russia. Hillary is anything if not as smart, savvy and shrewd as Putin. I think she'll be able to make an offer to Putin he can't refuse.. carrot and stick. We shall see... I have no doubts she will abandon Obama's laisse faire stance there however. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 07:19
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Syria is just a proxy war over Iran which has some weird contentious alliance with Russia that admittedly I don't understand, but the point being that their interests in Syria are not so fleeting as international prestige. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 07:38
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I'd defintely love to be educated on that... Syria is a sh*thole... it's President only just a step ahead of a bullet or a noose. So what interests do Russia have there in propping up a dead man walking nation and leader if not prestigue and some gasp of being internationally relevant as a political force outside of their own back yard. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 08:27
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Syria is an important ally to Iran. Iranian Shi'as have religious reasons to back the regime there. Also, Russia for its own interests views Syria as important because of their arms deals and I think it's one of or the only foreign military base that Russia has outside the reaches of the old USSR. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 09:55
The Russians have active naval bases at Tartus in Syria. Syria is a military and economic ally of Russia. In recent days they have stationed SS30 STA missiles there to defend the base. Although Assad is clearly not a good guy, Syria was a reltively tolerant place before it was flooded with ragtag bands of terrorists, many of them funded and armed by the west. Imagine if Russia armed and funded Iranian loyal Shia terrorists to overthrow the Saudi government. How do you think the US would respond? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 10:19
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good question.. as you know... the Saudi's aren't exactly on our X-mas card lists here. Who knows.. we'd probably throw in a complementary smart bomb. Saudi Oil? we have have plenty here... and an ascendent political movement that would have an orgasm at the chance to go green. in all seriousness.. who knows... this isn't the cold war anymore. That applies to us.. and to the Russians. There are those.. who think regime changes in teh middle east are fundamental to solving the existential problem of radical Islam. It's hate is directed at us.. it's causes are rooted in the 1%'rs there. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 11:13
It's not all about oil though. The point is the strategic relationship between Saudi and the US in containing Iran, and their biggest ally Syria who happen to be strategic allies of Russia. In short we are already at war with Russia, by proxy. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 11:21
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no.. I don't see that at all. Thanks (for better or worse) due to Obama's policies. While it has lengthened the bloodshed and horror in Syria it has kept us out of burning Assad to the ground.. which yes.. either by proxy or directly has kept us from engaging Russian interests there. Our problem to this point is Russia targeting the Syrian rebels and not ISIL which we are targeting. The rebels.. on their f**king own for all intents and purposes against Assad and Russia. the point is whether we should.. and how if we chose to (which again.. I think the Clinton administration will do).. not whether we already are. Obama is fixated on removing ISIL through a very indirect... though effective but long term strangulation strategy. For what good that will do.. but it still has to be done. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 11:42
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^^^ If you choose to believe that the so called 'moderate' rebels are a clearly defined fighting force with one goal in mind; removing Assad then yes that is the state of play. In reality the situation is more complex. There are no clean hands in this fight, and loyalties are split across the board, and various rebel factions also oppose each other. We also know that weapons sent to 'moderate' forces have fallen into the hands of ISIS and that rebel fighters have also deserted the FSA and joined the ranks of ISIS and Al Nusra. Lets not forget that Al Nusra are the Syrian wing of Al Queada and up until very recently we were arming them too. It is a complete mess and a dangerous one. Russia's sole mission aim is to keep Assad in power. The west want him gone and so do ISIS, so I suspect Putin beieves the best way to tackle ISIS in Syria and prevent them from making their way to Russia to carry out attacks is to confront them with Syrian forces rather than let the 'moderates' deal with them. Moderates who also want Assad gone, so by definition have to be Russia's enemy and will be dealt with accordingly. I don't see Obama having any coherant strategy here. Washington is out of its depth. You only have to watch the senate hearings in recent weeks of top military generals being challenged on why we can't impose no fly zones over Syria and they are telling the committee that to do so would mean actual direct war with Russia and Syria and should therefore be avoided. Politicians need to listen the more level headed in the military and take note. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 11:51
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no doubt.. I'm not disagreeing with you on any of that. Incredibly complex.. especially it ones figures in Turkey's involvement hahaha. My point is.. a proxy war with Russia? That is not what I see we are fighting.. to this point our 'problem' with the Russians is not supporting us against ISIL and making that fight more difficult than it is already. Two completely different wars being fought here... where it is complex is obviously how they are intertwined and interrelated. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 11:51
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.....Is this supposed to be a shocking/new headline?
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 11:53
 though it should have been... Putin has gone insane... god bless the Russians. but that is a WHOLE other ball of discussion wax....------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 11:56
Putin has gone insane ....is this supposed to be a shocking/new headline? Sorry to be snarky, but yeah Putin is clearly a madman and I have no qualms saying a horrible human being
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:02
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Don't ISIS and Obama both work for Israel? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:02
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------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:03
That is true. From all I've read from sources I trust/written by people who know, that does sound like our current Mid East policy has basically been alliance with Saudi Arabia to help contain Iran. Matters not we dont actually like the Saudi's...of course we don't but oil politics has wed us together and ya know, after so many decades can't just end it overnight Besides, we've long viewed Saudi Arabia as a stable, albeit unlikeable, force in the mid east,especially against Iran which no one really likes. It's true, the cold war has kind of frozen back over. I mean Russia has been doing it for ages. All the elections they kept their hand in. The shenanigans in Ukraine (I dont believe for a second that Russia didnt have plants in there to stir up trouble). |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:12
Hate to be so simplistic, but look at the wiki page for Syrian Civil War One one side: Assad, Iran, Russia. The other: US, Saudi Arabia. This is very much a proxy war. Of course ISIS is part of it, but that's the thing with any proxy war, there's always a legitimate other aspect to it, doesn't mean the major chess players still aren't at it. It's known Saudi Arabia wanted Assad out, they and Iran are rivals, we have long been (very) uncomfortably teamed with the Saudis and also want to contain Iran, and our already not so great relationship with Russia has gone to sh*t after Ukraine, and Russia is absolutely trying to rebuild its strength. I think when you piece it all together, can't be denied a proxy war with Russia is absolutely an essential aspect. Since Russia and Iran are buddies, our wanting to contain Iran is also linked with Russia, and all are linked with the Saudi's. I have a love/hate (mostly hate) feeling on intl relations
Fascinating yet sickening. Anyway, it's a complex mess but seems proxy war with Russia is a legitimate claim to me |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:26
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taken from a semi-pro historian.. let me tell you what the general reputation of the accuracy of of wikipedia is among historians. It sucks... granted the QC has improved... but still. I see the omission of Turkey and anything wiki says is lost in the ether... wanting Assad to go down is not the same as being an active participant by proxy.. Ignore me.. but have seen NO evidence we are flighting the Rusians there.. by proxy or otherwise. We have done nothing to facilitate Assad's removal.. other than perhaps encouraging Turkey to support... then again.. don't we feel the same for the Turks as we do the Russians... they are dithering around with Assad while ignoring the fight against ISIL. Perhaps I'm just dense.. but see this as 2 conflicts distinct as far as objectives.. but obviously intertwined and related. That is where it is comlex. All the powers.. have their own specific objectives. Ours and the Russians.. are not the same.. thus the confict.. diverges. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:31
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As for the OP, yeah I have feared the storm clouds have been gathering for years. Russia's assertion of itself over the old USSR, especially for those who try to break free (georgia, ukraine) then it's direct annexation attempt of Ukraine (and like I said, I dont believe they had no influence in triggering the entire mess as justification to invade) I have long believed Putin had hopes of restoring the Russian empire, and when I learned a couple years ago he was influence by this madman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin I knew it wasn't good.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:34
 I know you are more financially minded then myself. What is your take on the Russian financial troubles and the state of its economy. I figured this latest stunt was perhaps just something to keep the masses distracted...------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:35
That was indeed the point...all one needs is a wiki article the two sides, and the web of them all is all one needs. Nah, I think we all agree there are 2 conflicts, Isis is obviously part of it and we DO want to stop them. Like I said, there's always legitimate other aspects. But given the web of relationships laid out and who's on what side...also think it's fair to say geopolitics is as much a factor as Isis. Containing Iran, thwarting Russian influence, our Saudi ties. It's complex but in a way it all relates to one overarching web
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:39
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that makes more sense to me than calling it a proxy war...it is a mess and there is a lot of geopolitics going on among many nations all with differing objectives.... perhaps I"m old school.. but that brings up some very specific examples and this is nothing like them. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:42
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And I don't usually use language like this for rulers/other countries. It's known I have no issue directly criticizing the US, Germany for their imperialistic moves, but that's the thing....it's done today by economics. It's so shocking to see Putin believe in old school conquest and literal empire restoration. Also I think he's a regressive, disturbing person. No issue with the Russian people.
Sadly been super busy with school and work, haven't been very current but I have no doubt some of Russia's actions have been to distract/look tough in the wake of its financial woes. That's very reasonable, and it's not like other places do it. Though like I mentioned above, we are a step more civilized When we need a distraction from poor economics/want to drum up some nationalism we invade Grenada, or the Falklands. Russia invades a major country that they've not so secretly wanted "back" for decades. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2016 at 12:47
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I was sort of curious if they are as bad as I seem to be lead to believe they are. Seems the plunges in oil prices have proven near catastrophic for them. I think I've read they've burned through half of their captial reserves and would burn through the rest in the next two years and when that happened... the crash 1930's America might look like child's play.. in 2020's Russia. I was curious if you had any thought on that. Finanical matters are not my strong suit.. ask Raff Add in a power mad despot... then.. the sh*t gets real... desperate despots tend to do whatever it takes to hang on to power .. looking at you Ukraine... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |