Gentle Giant gets ripped apart
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Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10407
Printed Date: February 21 2025 at 12:23
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Topic: Gentle Giant gets ripped apart
Posted By: Tiresias
Subject: Gentle Giant gets ripped apart
Date Posted: August 20 2005 at 21:35
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Hilarity does not ensue. I gave my friend who introduced me to TFK, PoS, and SB the cd of Playing the Fool. The man is a musical genius who is possibly the smartest and most skilled musician I've ever met. So... How did you like it? Him: Oh god..the vocal fugue and counterpoint was disappointing. They were complex for complexities sake. They sh*t all over what Bach did for counterpoint. Just shabby songwriting if you ask me. Well, sorry you didn't like it. However I saw his point. Compared to the subtle complexity of Bach's fugue and counterpoint pieces, Gentle Giant is child's play.
I still love them though. ------------- Wh'ghal ng'fth mglw'y Ry'leh, Cthulhu fhtagn... 
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Replies:
Posted By: Tiresias
Date Posted: August 20 2005 at 21:36
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I also learned the most I ever wanted to know about counterpoint in 20 minutes from him. God, he's awesome. ------------- Wh'ghal ng'fth mglw'y Ry'leh, Cthulhu fhtagn...
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Posted By: Yanns
Date Posted: August 20 2005 at 21:37
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Ah. I don't like your friend's opinion. Don't let Trouserpress see this thread! |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 20 2005 at 21:40
I was thinking that ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Yanns wrote:
Posted By: Tiresias
Date Posted: August 20 2005 at 21:41
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I understand what he meant though I don't hold it against him. Their song structure is not in acccordance with fugue patterns in the traditional sense. The progression of a fugue is supposed to be three voices the first in the root note. The second voice enters on the 3rd 5th or 6th of the note, as well as the third voice. Gentle Giant did this wrong, unfortunately. My friend has mild OCD ------------- Wh'ghal ng'fth mglw'y Ry'leh, Cthulhu fhtagn...
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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: August 20 2005 at 22:01
Well, Im a big GG fan too, and all that I can say is:
------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: Ty1020
Date Posted: August 20 2005 at 22:01
But if everyone followed traditional patterns and didn't try doing their own thing, music would become unbearably stagnant and boring. We wouldn't have prog at all if nobody ever "broke the rules," so to speak, we'd just be listening to the same rehashed textbook musical ideas over and over again. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Ty1020/"> 
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Posted By: Hangedman
Date Posted: August 20 2005 at 22:13
| hes kidding complex for complexities sake and he LIKES the flower kings, haha, when the flower kings write something original and artful i will throw myself out of a window in shock |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 07:15
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Posted By: oddentity
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 07:28
| He's forgetting that Gentle Giant were a rock band. They shouldn't be judged on classical terms. No classical composer has ever created the same kind of atmosphere and musical journeys that Gentle Giant created, Bach included. Because of this, their music is just as valid as Bach's. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 07:30
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let's be honest: when it comes to counterpoint no-one beats Johann
Sebastian. but is it fair to compare Gentle Giant to him? I think not;
Gentle Giant are a rock band, after all
-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 07:50
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I think it's funny that everyone here says that it's not appropriate to compare GG and Bach. Yet such inappropriate comparisons are done all over this website and no one takes offence. Prog Metal is compared to Krautrock, Neo-Prog to Symphonic Prog etc.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 08:18
I don't know that that's all that ridiculous, neo prog is after all influenced by '70s symph more than it is anything else (it's just not as good
 ) |
Posted By: Off Centre
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 08:18
I'm sure they were aware of the 'rules' but chose to use what they liked etc. Kerry Minear is a classically trained organist I believe, so he would definitely have known about the bach way of doing things. |
Posted By: Sir Hogweed
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 08:24
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Maybe I'm wrong but I guess J.S. Bach still is the greatest composer who ever lived. Many composers/musicians who ever analysed his stuff and others would agree with me. I think GG themselves also would agree to that. So what else is new? On the other hand. Had Johann Sebastian been born around 1950 he probably would have founded Gentle Giant |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 08:29
Read the definition on the website, it explains the difference pretty well. It's also my opinion that as a genre it's not as good as 70s Symph Prog, but there are some damn good Neo Prog bands. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 08:37
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Every composer after Bach was influenced by him (at least those who knew him; in the late 18th / early 19th century he was almost forgotten; Mendelsohn and Schumann rediscovered him; both Mozart and Beethoven knew Bach though and admired him. Beethoven said about Bach: "He should not be named 'Bach' (German for brook), he should be named 'Meer' (German for ocean)". -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Sir Hogweed
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 09:27
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Yeah, he was considered quite dull for some time. Even his own (forgotten) sons had a much "poppier" sound to them (almost like Gabriel and Hackett left "Though names may change each face retains the mask it wore" |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 09:30
Yeah but surely they're not anything like so incomparable as krautrock and prog metal, or baroque and prog
  . |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 21 2005 at 10:13
Agreed. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Trotsky
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 02:01
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Hmmm just let me get this straight ... This guy (known henceforth as Tiresias' Musical Genius Friend) recommends The Flower Kings, PoS and Spock's Beard and then proceeds to knock Gentle Giant for its shabby songwriting and being complex for the sake of it ... I've read that over to myself four or five times and it sounds more ridiculous everytime ... IMO, while there are a hatful of talented musicians in TFK, PoS and SB ... GG's in a different league ... two or three divisions up in fact ... Still where would we be if we didn't respect each other's opinions and the right to differ (however outrageous it may seem) on taste? As for J.S. Bach ... it's true that in my mind the man's a greater genius than the GG composing collective ... but I find myself wanting to listen to GG a lot more often
------------- "Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.” "No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present." |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 02:25
we shall flog you into liking neo-prog Goose
------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 02:26
go bugger yourself  ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: oddentity
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 03:11
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Mike wrote:
I agree that such comparisons are inappropriate. Bach explored counterpoint in a very methodical and scholarly manner. Gentle Giant, by contrast, explored and expanded rock music though various means, which included the use of counterpoint. They each had entirely different aims. I like classical music a lot, but I have to say that classical composers have been responsible for some of the most boring music ever created on earth. Even Bach had his less inspired moments. We shouldn't have to apologize for liking advanced forms of rock music.
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Posted By: Hangedman
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 11:37
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 11:44
You can say that you don't like something in many ways ... your comment on TFK goes way beyond that. You're making fun of them and people who like them ... and yes, you ARE saying that they're bad. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Infinity
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 12:29
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Well said!
Is this th 'Classical Archives' ???? GG rule ------------- I can't remember what I said I lost my head. __________________________ |
Posted By: floydaholic
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 13:31
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Gentle Giant kicks f**king ass. ------------- I'll see you on the Darkside of the moon... |
Posted By: Sir Hogweed
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 14:02
Well said. This friend probably just didn't like GG's music (which is ok), but had a hard time finding anything wrong with it. Bringing their composing skills down just because they chose a different approach than Bach Glad you still love them, Tiresias. And TFK PoS and SB were good reccomendations IMO, so maybe the guy deserves a second chance with GG |
Posted By: Odd24
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 14:03
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I think Bach surely wouldn't have any trouble with some parts of "Think of me with kindness" and "Why not" and I think he even would have loved everything from their debut until Interview. ------------- Right down the line |
Posted By: Sir Hogweed
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 14:29
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I think he would be in the band, if they could agree on the wig-issue |
Posted By: Syntharachnid
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 15:14
Oh, come on. Proggers have worn just about everything else on stage, why not let Bach wear a powdered wig? ------------- 
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: August 22 2005 at 17:04
Fishy Marillion are my token neo band, I'm not going any further |
Posted By: Hangedman
Date Posted: August 23 2005 at 15:48
More than anything its a joke, using an extreme exageration of my opinion. If it hurt you at all, Im sorry. Its a kind of humor that I didnt expect anyone to take the wrong way, why i led it up with the lame smiley faces. If i was serious i would have tried to tear the flower kings apart in response to that dont you think? |
Posted By: Retrovertigo
Date Posted: August 23 2005 at 16:49
| Yeah... uh... you really can't make fun of a band who recorded In A Glass House. It's pretty much law. |
Posted By: Evan1211
Date Posted: August 23 2005 at 20:07
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He sounds like a jerk and the type of conceited man that I could not stand being around. I hate people who put down modern non-orchestral music as music for morons and idiots. They make classical composers like gods and give no one else a chance. Then on top of that- they make you look like a FOOL for even listening to such "commoners" music! Let me tell you, I HATE feeling like an idiot with no taste, and my jerk music teacher made me feel just that way after he put down "Heart of the Sunrise" as teenager music and unrefined! I felt like I was gonna explode! Errr. This is one of my pet peevs indeed! ------------- 
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Posted By: Laurent
Date Posted: August 23 2005 at 20:48
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And, of course, no Prog fans posses those traits. ------------- 
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Posted By: oddentity
Date Posted: August 23 2005 at 21:19
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Your music teacher is right, in a sense. Prog rock is indeed a young person's music, and this is coming from someone who still enjoys prog at 40 years of age. Prog is a youthful, naive, romantic form of music and, for me, that's precisely its charm. Although it obviously champions good musical technique, prog isn't really concerned about the scholastic aspects of music, and that's a good thing. If I want to revel in the scholastic side of music, then I listen to classical music. But a lot of the time I don't want to do that, just as I don't always want to visit libraries and museums all the time. Sometimes, I want to enjoy the energy and youthfulness of prog (and jazz) instead. So I wouldn't pay all that much attention to your teacher, if I were you. Until classical composers can recreate the moods and atmospheres that prog bands can create, they have no right to diss prog as a genre.
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Posted By: DarHobo
Date Posted: August 24 2005 at 02:09
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Hey guys, remember the term : To every man his own? Something like that. |
Posted By: Tony Fisher
Date Posted: August 24 2005 at 04:58
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OK, GG broke the rules. Naughty them. Slap wrists! But does it sound good? No, it sounds great! End of argument.
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Posted By: Odd24
Date Posted: August 24 2005 at 06:20
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^^ Gentle Giant may even be worse for them...but I wouldn't recommend Gentle Giant to most of my friends anyway ------------- Right down the line |
even though I love their music.Posted By: Fragile
Date Posted: August 24 2005 at 06:38
Not been in here for a while but it smacks of classical arrogance to
dismiss what lots on here love.Because he understands time signatures
and all it doesn't make his comments any more valuable than any on
here.Perhaps, his educated ears only appreciate 2nd and 3rd rate
prog bands Long live rock
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