Syd Barrett: Real Genius or Real Hype?

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Topic: Syd Barrett: Real Genius or Real Hype?

Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Syd Barrett: Real Genius or Real Hype?
Date Posted: August 04 2015 at 16:43

Syd Barrett, the Mad Cap. Was he truly a genius on the level of a McCartney or Lennon? A musical visionary? Or an over celebrated artist caught up in the cult of personality, due to the nature of his artistic demise? Or somewhere in the middle?

Replies:

Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 04 2015 at 17:27

It doesn't really matter to me how he is labelled. All I know is that he created music that is absolutely unique and a special part of my life. Much more special than many artists who are considered far more talented and "professional" than he.

Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 04 2015 at 17:33

Somewhere in between for me....though I like many of the songs he wrote he's not that fantastic in my book and really wasn't much of a guitar player imho.

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 04 2015 at 18:00

A genius but not on the level of Lennon and McCartney. Love his stuff but a tortured soul.

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Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 04 2015 at 21:55

There are some songs I like from him, and last time I gave Piper a listen I enjoyed it more than I remembered enjoying it before, but still I would think he is more a legend because of his madness. I think Gilmour was much more talented, and I don't think Floyd would have reached the heights they did with Syd instead.

Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: August 04 2015 at 22:10

SteveG wrote:

an over celebrated artist caught up in the cult of personality, due to the nature of his artistic demise?

this. not a genius at all.

Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: August 04 2015 at 22:13

Dellinger wrote:

I think Gilmour was much more talented, and I don't think Floyd would have reached the heights they did with Syd instead.

Exactly my thoughts.

Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: August 04 2015 at 23:46

Somewhere in the middle. One the one hand, Syd's work was what got me into seeking stuff outside the mainstream and manages to stand on it's own merits. On the other, I admit the hype nearly killed my interest in him. I remember getting his solo work, the first listen, i though it as genius, the second total Censored

and the third onward fluctuated between the two extremes before finally settling on a more favorable outlook.

@Dillinger: IIRC, I think it was David that taught Syd some guitar lessons.

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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 05 2015 at 01:12

To me, Syd was a gifted artist with a fragile mind. He is not a 'genius' per se, though highly creative and unique.
I enjoy most of his stuff, though some moments really scream at you about the dangers of LSD. I guess that qualifies as in-between. And most of us hear about his alleged, 'crazy' behaviour, but never his 'regular' day-to-day life. No-one cares whether he made coffee for his mother or tried to carry on as a 'regular Joe', only that he was a 'Burnt out Rock Legend'.

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 05 2015 at 21:43

KingCrInuYasha wrote:

Somewhere in the middle. One the one hand, Syd's work was what got me into seeking stuff outside the mainstream and manages to stand on it's own merits. On the other, I admit the hype nearly killed my interest in him. I remember getting his solo work, the first listen, i though it as genius, the second total Censored

and the third onward fluctuated between the two extremes before finally settling on a more favorable outlook.

@Dillinger: IIRC, I think it was David that taught Syd some guitar lessons.

Yeah, there was something about that I had read too. I'm not so sure how much it is that Gilmour teached some guitar to Syd, or if they learned together, or whatever. However, they were suposed to know each other since before Pink Floyd. And I think it shows even to this days, since Gilmour has been fond of including some Syd tunes in his solo shows.

Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: August 06 2015 at 04:13

I enjoy the man's musical output of course, but I'm uncomfortable with the cult of personality around Barrett considering how much he shunned publicity. According to the biography of him A Very Irregular Head by Rob Chapman, the mental breakdown that caused Barrett to leave PF was caused as much by touring stress and discomfort with being famous as by his mental health and substance abuse issues.

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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook

Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: August 06 2015 at 09:33

A great song writer. And I love the way he played guitar. I prefer his work with Floyd and I can't stand Floyd without him.

Posted By: Ancient_Mariner
Date Posted: August 06 2015 at 11:03

To me Floyd didn't really come together until Meddle so I'm not a huge fan of his but some interesting work on the first Floyd record. Never listened to his solo stuff.

Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 08 2015 at 13:32

Finnforest wrote:

It doesn't really matter to me how he is labelled. All I know is that he created music that is absolutely unique and a special part of my life. Much more special than many artists who are considered far more talented and "professional" than he.

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Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 09:27

Komandant Shamal wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

I think Gilmour was much more talented, and I don't think Floyd would have reached the heights they did with Syd instead.

Exactly my thoughts.

I concur with this. With Syd in the band, Pink Floyd would never have had even a chance to become the prog "dinosaur" they became. There simply was no way going on when his problems went out of hand. There were just two options for Pink Floyd at that point: 1. Fire Barrett. 2. Fold it. We would have missed a lot of great music if they had chosen option 2.

Syd Barrett had his streaks of genius, but overall, David Gilmour was the better musician. No contest.

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 10:20

genius? It really does seem to be a label tossed about too easily

he was creative and was definitely a tragic figure.. but Christ man... he wasn't the only one of that era. Let's call them all genius's as well.

Skip Spence.. now that was the tragic loss ..cutting the heart of what could have been one of the greats of the era.... Floyd continued on and prospered. Moby Grape couldn't and didn't.

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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 10:29

I've said before - contraversially perhaps - that the term 'genius' is bandered around too generously with regard to any brand of non classical music artist.

Barrett wasn't a genius IMO. He was a unique talent, and a very entertaining character nonetheless, but for me Floyd were a far better and more interesting band without him.

It's probably fair to say that he was an 'important' figure in rock music at the time, and I would have liked to have been around to experience the band at that stage of their career, but based on Piper I don't think they would have appealed to me quite as much as say The Doors or Hendrix at the time. Btw, I don't consider Jim Morrison to have been a genius either.

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Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 10:58

WeepingElf wrote:

Komandant Shamal wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

I think Gilmour was much more talented, and I don't think Floyd would have reached the heights they did with Syd instead.

Exactly my thoughts.

Let me ask you please why he never formed a new band in 70s and to be a leader of that band? due to mental problems, right? well, after reading the articles with the facts about him i dont buy that story that he was so big psycho that he wasnt able to make ONE ingenious lp in 70s - with a band - if he was a genius.

However Barrett solo stuff was re-discovered in 90s by indie-rock artists due to that lets say "proto indie" sound at his two acid-folk lps so as an already forgotten solo artist with a catalogue of two albums he get a recognition by a new crowd and isnt that something very nice? his fanbase should be all happy with that because he wasnt a genius.

Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 11:02

Anyone think there are parallels between Syd and Brian Jones in terms of the band relationships?

And what effect would Jones have had on the 70s Stones had he lived and decided he wanted to continue to contribute more regularly to their albums?

Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 11:25

A interesting parallel, Jim. The same as Syd, I guess. But I can't help thinking that both would have precipitated the fall of their respective bands, after of course another wonderful and strange album than we would still try to understand today. Sick

Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 11:27

Finnforest wrote:

Anyone think there are parallels between Syd and Brian Jones in terms of the band relationships?

i dont think there are any parallels cause nobody killed Syd.

Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 14:39

Komandant Shamal wrote:

Let me ask you please why he never formed a new band in 70s and to be a leader of that band? due to mental problems, right? well, after reading the articles with the facts about him i dont buy that story that he was so big psycho that he wasnt able to make ONE ingenious lp in 70s - with a band - if he was a genius.

When I say that he had his "streaks of genius", I didn't intend to say that he was a genius. Having "streaks of" something is not the same as being that something. He simply was incapable of forming his own band, and his solo work is not particularly interesting (as far as I have heard it). Yet, he had an occasional interesting or even brilliant idea. At any rate, a sense of humour which is missing from the later work of Pink Floyd.

Some people say that he was so deranged that he still thought he was a band member when he showed up at Abbey Road in '75, saying that he was "ready to take his part", but I think he was just joking about that - that would very much have been in his character.

There is absolutely NO WAY Pink Floyd could have come up with something as sophisticated as The Dark Side of the Moon or Shine On You Crazy Diamond with Barrett at the helm.

Yes.

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"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."

Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 23:22

I'm glad this thread was opened because I was wondering myself not long ago what other PA members thought of him. I don't like his pop songs. They never fit in cohesively with extended pieces like Interstellar Overdive and such. I'm not sure Syd liked them either given how he would de-emphasize them live. Syd brought forward a different manner of playing slide and an enthusiastic use of delay (echo-like sound). This was cutting edge for the time in the truest Prog sense. That sound seemed to influence Amon Düül II (who influenced in turn all of Krautrock) and early Nektar. I read once, however, in a David Gilmour interview decades ago in which he claimed to have shown Syd that slide technique. He was chafing a bit at accusations that he was plundering the technique from Syd. I have no idea where to find that article now unfortunately.

Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: August 09 2015 at 23:32

WeepingElf wrote:

Yes.

My question was just rhetorical. IMO, Syd Barrett wasnt an artist able to survive that revolution made by Hendrix. And he wasnt only one who wasnt able for that adaptation. In fact Gilmour was that bridge that made possible for Pink Floyd to survive that dramatical change. Without David Gilmour, i think the band could have been disbanded only - no Gilmour, no Floyd 70s stuff at all.

Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 09:06

Komandant Shamal wrote:

My question was just rhetorical. IMO, Syd Barrett wasnt an artist able to survive that revolution made by Hendrix. And he wasnt only one who wasnt able for that adaptation. In fact Gilmour was that bridge that made possible for Pink Floyd to survive that dramatical change. Without David Gilmour, i think the band could have been disbanded only - no Gilmour, no Floyd 70s stuff at all.

Of course. I missed the irony, sorry. But there are too many people around who seriously think that firing Syd was the worst decision Pink Floyd ever made. Of course, those people usually dislike the Pink Floyd of the 70s and prog in general ...

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... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."

Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 11:47

I don't know if he was a genius, but he was largely responsible for the only Pink Floyd album I like (well... Saucerful was good too). It's true that PF wouldn't have gone on to do Dark Side if Syd stayed in the band... another feather in his cap!! ;-)

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jc

Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 11:53

Real Hype easily, I don't know how anyone could call 'Bike' genius.

Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 12:36

Syd Barrett was just another loon from the 60's to me. Piper is bad and nonsensical and was really just another psych album of the decade. The main reason it's still known is because it's Pink Floyd and regarded so well for the same reason. I'd say it's definitely hype keeping it afloat.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 13:37

micky wrote:

genius? It really does seem to be a label tossed about too easily

he was creative and was definitely a tragic figure.. but Christ man... he wasn't the only one of that era. Let's call them all genius's as well.

Skip Spence.. now that was the tragic loss ..cutting the heart of what could have been one of the greats of the era.... Floyd continued on and prospered. Moby Grape couldn't and didn't.

Hmm... I'm staying out of this debate, but I don't feel that genius is overused in the music world because it usually denotes an innovator with a specific vision for a specific form of music, as opposed to a musical virtuoso. Now, that's a term that's been really abused.

If we look closer at artists like Spence with the Oar album, editing had a lot to do with how much of a 'genius' that Skip sounded like. If you listen to the Sundazed remaster with the previously unreleased bonus tracks included, most of the bonus cuts were Skip meandering on bass (he was a good bassist, though) with stream of consciousness lyrics. What worked was included on the original 1969 Oar vinyl. What didn't was left on the cutting room floor, as the expression goes. So, there's a lot more involved in what makes up a genius, then who we consider one to be.

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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 19:37

Syd Barrett was definitely unique with his writing..however he was very rebellious against the corporate music industry. He had money, popularity, and Pink Floyd were being set up for the proper breaks a band needs to succeed in life. Unfortunately for many around him, he wasn't interested in that stuff..because he thought it was wrong for him and generally wrong in the righteous sense. He was a very intelligent man who saw no light at the end of the tunnel for this hyped up "Pop Star" image...which!...he found contrived. Although in the early days he dressed in the wildest British Psychedelic fashion, looked very bubbly/excited/happy in pictures and rubbed off that way to his friends. He was on a positive path! He obtained a high level for that and then changed his mind after "See Emily Play" and Piper began to circulate globally. The "Tower Records" red label and the striped were pretty well known when I was a child. During these times where he felt like a spirit flying upward socially and artistically, he make certain snooty comments to the press regarding being sort of "anti-commercial" and because "See Emily Play" was a hit, he was offended and annoyed by the overwhelming process of the industry who often attempted to mold ANY artist into their commercial image to gain profit. Syd Barrett seemed like he was a noble/sincere fanatic of any creation of art...(poetry or music), he seemed as if he didn't want anyone to eventually touch his art and contrive it and may have already quietly been offended over his surroundings socially in the studio, touring, and overall presentation.

Then he got deeper into LSD and decided with an "attitude" to play with these people's minds. As Roger Waters often said..."Many of the things he did were actually very funny". I totally agree and in "67 ..society had Lenny Bruce, but they probably wouldn't have understood Syd Barrett. He pulled off insane capers in the television studios, constantly setting the cameraman up. When Dick Clark asked Syd..."Syd, you wrote most of the music"..Syd replies, with his hand on his hip.."Yeah, that's right"..and the way he pronounces the word "right" is like..."Yeah, that's right wtf are you gonna do about it?" Or it can be taken that way if the word "right" is phrased like a note traveling upward or changing a low pitch to a higher pitch influences people to think you might have an attitude or they feel like they are bothering you. Lol! Around this period he began to set people up and it made them look like jackasses. He did it this with Roger Waters when he tried to teach him "Have You Got It Yet?" and then he set Norman Smith up having him call a Salvation Army band into the studio, with Syd not arriving until very late, and when asked by Norman Smith "Syd, what do you want them to play?", Syd replied: "I don't know really, well, play anything" "Play anything they'd like"

Regarding this hyped up glamour on Syd for the last 3 or 4 decades, Syd would be in fact right wouldn't he? He was right to feel destructive to that industry...because look at what they did to him now? Some people get the impression that he was just a clown. Not really. He may have not been a classically trained guitarist or a Ritchie Blackmore, but he wrote songs on the guitar and that's all that mattered. It was the style he created later defined..as "Space Rock" or some folks call it Psychedelic Space Rock. Tags are tags. I'm making reference to the point of Syd Barrett possibly being the first person to create the overall "Space Rock" style and sound, which influentially took hold of many "Space Rock" bands throughout the 70's. Another observation on his writing would tell that he may have been the first person to combine a kind of childlike literature in Rock music. Sometimes with a subtle approach and it is bewildering! One album only with the Floyd and I still think it's just as good as Sgt. Pepper regarding it's sophistication as an art form...however just different regarding the various aspects he creates to a song. "Matilda Mother" had well structured, pre-planned sections. He was definitely a true innovator! He influenced many artists in the world to capture something different in songwriting and that's a pretty difficult thing to do. Think about it? He influenced bands for decades after ...however he was just an innocent guy that rebelled against the industry in his own bizarre fashion. Some people in the past have attributed this to the LSD. I for one, do not. He knew exactly what he was doing by playing games on "The Pat Boone Show" and everyone else who complained. Nick Mason: "Should I feel compassion...or shall I kill him?"

Syd Barrett sort of spoiled Pink Floyd's high ideals then , but not now..not in the present because Syd Barrett taught Roger Waters methods, concepts..on writing and Waters remembering all of that, and proceeded to master writing and incorporate Syd's influence. Sections of "Julia Dream", "It Would Be So Nice", "Crying Song", Part 2 and part 3 of "The Narrow Way", "Free Four", "Breathe (In the air)" and "Mother" from The Wall..are all very influenced by Syd Barrett's structure and melody. The song "Opel" ..if re-done,,with choir, bass, electric guitar, and keyboards would sound like a Pink Floyd song belonging to the "Animals", "Pigs On The Wing" period. Some material Syd Barrett wrote later for solo albums ..seemed to influence Pink Floyd's later writing. He was a very unique individual in the history of Rock music. He was a natural.

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 21:15

Roger Waters, Rick Wright, and David Gilmour , (Gilmour to a less degree), were all influenced By Syd Barrett's original style of writing. In the early days of the Floyd, Waters and Wright didn't actually know how to write or form structure before harmony or have insight on what to leave out that sounded unprofessional, unfitting, or even logically incorrect. Over a period of time...they observed Syd Barrett's ideas on writing a little more closely and after he was gone, they began to write and everything came natural to them over a course of time. I've done this with musician friends that died, where I'm writing a piece, strumming or finger picking a chord and thinking "what would Bobby have done?" and that's because he influenced me to bring his spirit or way of doing things into my music. It's as simple as that. It is the overall psychological impression and influence of someone else in your life that can cause you to either slightly emulate them, or write exactly like them. For Waters, it was evident in the song "If" and several short songs on "The Wall". Originally Rick Wright was adding very special keyboard parts to Syd Barrett's songs and really not writing anything himself...just adding ideas to a structure already written by Syd. "Take Up Thy Stethoscope And Walk" is not exactly good songwriting to me. It could never compare to "Astronomy Domine". You can personally do so many things with that song. If you wanted to...you could add creepy violins playing the 1-2-3-, 1-2-3- pattern during the verse. You could easily change that song into Symphonic or you could allow organ to dominate it as an ELP version. Anyone who can write a song that gives most musicians visions on how to do it differently or actually observing dimensions which are evident and inspiring ideas to re-record the piece....is usually a genius.

Syd Barrett's influence on "Punk Rock" had mostly to do with the sound of his "Telecaster" and his idea to emulate "Sci-fi themes of the 60's...which...almost every guitar player from that generation did. The Ventures, The T-Bones, The Surfaris were in the "Surf Rock" scene of the early 60's, yet recorded and also covered various Sci-Fi themes of the 60's. "Surf Rock" style and "Sci'Fi Theme style guitar playing was a sound cemented into "Punk Rock". Syd Barrett incorporated that style in songs like "Lucifer Sam" "Astronomy Domine" and "Interstellar Overdrive". However....he was singing some of the songs and that edge to combine both, influenced driving "Punk Rock" songs. It's so strange to think of this, as he influenced many generations in the writing department and although much of his music was simplistic, it was the emphasis put on what he did in the end.. when the song was finished. People stole or borrowed that from him. In the end, Syd Barrett himself thought and expressed in interviews that Piper was just a collection of songs he wrote and couldn't see why people made a fuss. In the same way that Ian Anderson can often be quoted saying that Aqualung was just a collection of songs and may have felt in his youth ...confused as to why the album was so successful. Syd Barrett was a unique artist with perfect timing. He influenced many musicians right before the dawn of the 70's. Amon Dull II , Hawkwind, Gong, and several others.

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 21:36

My track running for...A Saucerful Of Secrets" if Syd Barrett would have stayed on board.

1. Let There Be More Light
2. Scream Thy Last Scream
3. Remember A Day

4. Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun

5. Corporal Clegg

6. Vegetable Man

7. A Saucerful Of Secrets

8. See-Saw

9. Jugband Blues

Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 22:25

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 23:31

brainstormer wrote:

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

Not totally. Astronomy Domine has a harmony vocal and it might be Waters backing Syd Barrett. Additionally on "Matilda Mother" ..it may be Waters or an overdubbed vocal of Syd Barrett. Difficult for me to tell...as sometimes, Wright and Waters sang in the style of Syd. "Corporal Clegg" is supposedly Roger Waters singing lead, yet it sounds very much like Syd Barrett. Rick Wright's vocal work can be matched with similarities to Syd Barrett's on very early Wright songs...such as B sides to their singles. Syd Barrett sang lead on most of Piper and lead only on one track from Saucerful which was Jugband Blues. "Scream Thy Last Scream" , written during his last days with the Floyd featured Nick Mason on lead vocal and Syd Barrett singing along with Mason, yet octaves higher in pitch, sped up more or less, emulating the same sound used for Alvin and the Chipmunks. On the BBC Sessions '67, it is easier to tell the difference between Waters voice and Barrett's. This cd contains rare versions of "Astronomy Domine", "The Gnome", "Scarecrow" "Set The Controls" , (which has Syd Barrett on guitar), "Matilda Mother", "Flaming", "Scream Thy Last Scream" and "Vegetable Man". I highly recommend this cd to anyone who appreciates the early Floyd. I have the "so called" original studio recordings of "Vegetable Man" and "Scream Thy Last Scream" and I enjoy them quite more than the BBC recordings because they are not as stripped down.

Posted By: AreYouHuman
Date Posted: August 10 2015 at 23:55

Toddler: great take on Syd. I especially liked your point about how his songs lend themselves to different arrangements. I’m not a musician myself, but I’ve often found myself imagining what else could be done with existing pieces of music. Could be a subject for a whole new thread.

I’m not ready to pin a genius (or any other) tag on him, but one has to wonder how Syd’s career would have gone if he hadn’t let himself become an acid casualty.

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Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: August 11 2015 at 01:46

@Toddler: I dunno, the BBC version of VM has a bit of a silly pop feel which I like. IIRC, there was also a instrumental version of the song that has the band going absolutely nuts. That version is my favorite.

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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: August 11 2015 at 03:01

Very Interesting Toddler. Clap

Bravo. That would be impossible today that a song as "Emily Play" becomes a hit ! Cry

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 11 2015 at 09:23

TODDLER wrote:

Syd Barrett was definitely unique with his writing..however he was very rebellious against the corporate music industry. He had money, popularity, and Pink Floyd were being set up for the proper breaks a band needs to succeed in life. Unfortunately for many around him, he wasn't interested in that stuff..because he thought it was wrong for him and generally wrong in the righteous sense. He was a very intelligent man who saw no light at the end of the tunnel for this hyped up "Pop Star" image...which!...he found contrived. Although in the early days he dressed in the wildest British Psychedelic fashion, looked very bubbly/excited/happy in pictures and rubbed off that way to his friends. He was on a positive path! He obtained a high level for that and then changed his mind after "See Emily Play" and Piper began to circulate globally. The "Tower Records" red label and the striped were pretty well known when I was a child. During these times where he felt like a spirit flying upward socially and artistically, he make certain snooty comments to the press regarding being sort of "anti-commercial" and because "See Emily Play" was a hit, he was offended and annoyed by the overwhelming process of the industry who often attempted to mold ANY artist into their commercial image to gain profit. Syd Barrett seemed like he was a noble/sincere fanatic of any creation of art...(poetry or music), he seemed as if he didn't want anyone to eventually touch his art and contrive it and may have already quietly been offended over his surroundings socially in the studio, touring, and overall presentation.

Great exposition Todd, but what is your basis for it? This is the sort of write up that requires footnotes and bibliography so that it doesn't come off sounding like hearsay and speculation, baring your purely musical observances.

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 11 2015 at 21:41

TODDLER wrote:

brainstormer wrote:

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

I would really love to get this BBC CD you talk of, but as far as I know it's not officially released, and I wouldn't know how to get it. I have been wishing the BBC concerts (or some other early early concert with Gilmour already on it) were to be officially released, but a concert with Syd on it would be just about as interesting for me.

Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: August 11 2015 at 22:16

TODDLER wrote:

brainstormer wrote:

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

...

Not totally. Astronomy Domine has a harmony vocal and it might be Waters backing Syd Barrett. Additionally on "Matilda Mother" ..it may be Waters or an overdubbed vocal of Syd Barrett. Difficult for me to tell...as sometimes, Wright and Waters sang in the style of Syd. "Corporal Clegg" is supposedly Roger Waters singing lead, yet it sounds very much like Syd Barrett.

...

Actually, Wright and Barrett sang lead on "Astronomy Domine" and "Matilda Mother", while Mason sang co-lead on "Corporal Clegg".

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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 12 2015 at 18:34

I like the way different subsections just kind of emerge naturally out of improvisation in their extended pieces. They created it out of an ebb and flow in intensity. Stuff would ratchet up, gradually settle down and then more intensity would creep in again. How much of that was attributable to an impetus from Syd or the group dynamic, I don't know. When Syd was maintaining the quiet moments he frequently played muted strings in percussive fashion. The purpose may have been to do something different, or it may have just been to keep the people dancing. Floyd fans back then were into dancing in a way later fans weren't. Anyhow, I don't know of anyone before then who played the guitar quite so percussively. The periods of high and low intensity seem to foreshadow the later more highly arranged pieces Prog became well known for. Early Floyd made the transitions without pre-arranged bridging sections. Later Floyd and later Prog in general had more varied and perhaps more tasteful transitions, but Interstellar Overdrive and Astronomy Domine broke a lot of ground nevertheless. The first Nektar album followed in the same fashion as early Floyd. They had different sub-sections to pieces in which transitions mainly came about by fading a pice out and dialing it up again with an altered theme. Later Nektar, especially by the time of Recycled, had more arranged pieces with different subsections with more thoughtful transitions.

Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 12 2015 at 22:44

An article from 2006:

http://www.contactmusic.com/pete-townshend" rel="nofollow - Pete Townshend insists late http://www.contactmusic.com/pink-floyd" rel="nofollow - Pink Floyd frontman http://www.contactmusic.com/syd-barrett" rel="nofollow - SYD BARRETT "wasn't very good" when heard without the influence of hallucinogenics. Barrett was the driving force behind Pink Floyd's debut 1967 album THE PIPER AT THE GATES OF DAWN but left the band in 1968 after suffering an LSD-induced breakdown. He died in July (06) from complications associated with diabetes. And Townshend was left disappointed when his acid trip wore off before he saw Pink Floyd perform in London in the mid-1960s. He says, "I had one of my very few acid trips and I walked all the way from Portobello Road to the Roundhouse - four miles - and by the time I got there the trip had worn off. "It was strange watching Syd Barrett stone-cold sober and realising, actually, that he wasn't very good. But it would have been brilliant if you were on acid."

http://www.contactmusic.com/pete-townshend/news/sober-townshend-not-impressed-by-barrett_1014337" rel="nofollow - http://www.contactmusic.com/pete-townshend/news/sober-townshend-not-impressed-by-barrett_1014337

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 09:55

^Yes, sometimes lysergic music requires the use of a lysergic agent.

Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 11:13

Svetonio wrote:

An article from 2006:

http://www.contactmusic.com/pete-townshend" rel="nofollow - Pete Townshend insists late http://www.contactmusic.com/pink-floyd" rel="nofollow - Pink Floyd frontman http://www.contactmusic.com/syd-barrett" rel="nofollow - SYD BARRETT "wasn't very good" when heard without the influence of hallucinogenics. Barrett was the driving force behind Pink Floyd's debut 1967 album THE PIPER AT THE GATES OF DAWN but left the band in 1968 after suffering an LSD-induced breakdown. He died in July (06) from complications associated with diabetes. And Townshend was left disappointed when his acid trip wore off before he saw Pink Floyd perform in London in the mid-1960s. He says, "I had one of my very few acid trips and I walked all the way from Portobello Road to the Roundhouse - four miles - and by the time I got there the trip had worn off. "It was strange watching Syd Barrett stone-cold sober and realising, actually, that he wasn't very good. But it would have been brilliant if you were on acid."

http://www.contactmusic.com/pete-townshend/news/sober-townshend-not-impressed-by-barrett_1014337" rel="nofollow - http://www.contactmusic.com/pete-townshend/news/sober-townshend-not-impressed-by-barrett_1014337

If I was coming down off acid after just walking *four miles* and found myself at The Roundhouse (a standing venue) I doubt that I would enjoy anyone (including The Who)

-------------
jc

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 11:17

^I didn't know that the Roundhouse was a standing venue. It was home to the Pentangle before they became very big in Europe.

Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 11:30

bucka001 wrote:

Svetonio wrote:

An article from 2006:

If I was coming down off acid after just walking *four miles* and found myself at The Roundhouse (a standing venue) I doubt that I would enjoy anyone (including The Who)

Hmmm.... four miles...

....was that should be a big "problem" for a birdy man in his early 20s and who took, as he says in his autobiography Who I Am, the ballet lessons since he was 6 yrs old?

Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 16:11

Meh... would much rather have seen Floyd with Barrett than The Who. But The Who is still pretty cool.

-------------
jc

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 16:14

^Both would have been just fine for me.

-------------
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 19:32

KingCrInuYasha wrote:

@Toddler: I dunno, the BBC version of VM has a bit of a silly pop feel which I like. IIRC, there was also a instrumental version of the song that has the band going absolutely nuts. That version is my favorite.

Interesting that you hear the silly Pop...I think I agree!

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 19:34

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

brainstormer wrote:

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

It's on Amazon/music

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 19:35

KingCrInuYasha wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

brainstormer wrote:

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

...

Actually, Wright and Barrett sang lead on "Astronomy Domine" and "Matilda Mother", while Mason sang co-lead on "Corporal Clegg".

The vocals were always confusing to me. Thanks for the correction! the info!

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 19:40

Svetonio wrote:

An article from 2006:

I've read some negative statements from Townshend...who is one of my favorite writers. Syd Barrett was not overly impressive or up to Townshend's standards gymnastically and with all the "hoot" over Floyd during that time, he was a bit outspoken about that. I don't know if he was slightly jealous of their new audience or may have considered them a threat in some way to The Who? That was his first response to Jimi Hendrix anyway...so who knows really? Jeff Beck was like that too. His reaction was green over Hendrix.

Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 19:52

Zappa played Interstellar Overdrive with Floyd back 1969. Old news some probably but it was new info to me. Very interesting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Deb-LFMu9so

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 19:53

SteveG wrote:

If you read into what has been printed on Syd Barrett, interviews, ...you can easily pin point that many of his incidents which embarrassed the Floyd or frustrated them were an act of rebellion directed toward the industry. Roger Waters said several times in interviews about Syd Barrett not wanting to do the BBC..How he said to Syd..."What do you mean you don't want to do the BBC?" "This is what we've been waiting for!" "This is what we've been working for... for a very long time and now you're saying that you don't want to do it?" Syd Barrett replied with some snooty little statement like..."Well, John Lennon didn't want to do it, so why should I?" Something of that nature and then there are articles I've read decades ago as a teenager...where it was completely obvious that Syd Barrett disliked the "Pop Music" world. Also...there are several individuals interviewed on video available on YOUTUBE..who were Syd Barrett's friends in Cambridge...and they all say the same thing actually....about Syd not being cut out for the industry. In the same way that Mick Jagger says that very same thing about Brian Jones

Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 20:29

TODDLER wrote:

SteveG wrote:

I know there were times when, instead of playing their more accessible pop songs, Syd would just go on with an extra long Interstellar Overdrive. He wrote so many pop songs and seemed real good at it, but do you think he liked them? Was he happy writing them for their own sake, or did he feel pressured to write them. Or was his problem just with the industry beyond the product?

Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 21:35

I don't think he minded writing simple pop songs, but I think it reached a point for him that it just wasn't fun anymore. There was also an interview with Mick Rock where Syd said that he wasn't entirely satisfied with his two solo albums.

-------------
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 22:12

HackettFan wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

SteveG wrote:

It's difficult to know if he personally liked his songs whether they were commercial or not. According to Norman Smith ..Syd Barrett was difficult to get to know in a very intimate way. It could mean a number of things. For example: Syd Barrett may have disliked Norman Smith's character or may have felt he was snooty, writing his little dots on manuscript...or...Syd Barrett could have entered a different world in his mind upon first or shortly after working with Norman Smith and perhaps Mr. Smith was judging his personality upon that? According to the other Floyd producer, Joe Boyd....he recalls Syd being very life-like and an energetic thing about him. A person whois on the "up rise" in life, more or less...and later stating that he had not seen Syd for months ...but when he finally did run across Syd at the UFO Club, that the twinkle in Syd's eye was gone as if someone had turned off a switch. Some of these characters who knew Syd, worked with him, either knew him in the early days..or the mid part of his stay with the Floyd when he began to fade away...which that is what his personality did ...it became distant . He gave off the impression that he was looking through you instead of looking at you. When he was young, and I'm not quite sure ..it may have been during the writing of "Chapter 24" or prior to that... he was interested in joining a Sikh sect. According to Storm Thorgerson...they both visited the guru and Syd was deemed too young. I do recall reading years ago that it deeply offended him and he supposedly hit rock bottom with that. I tend to believe Thorgerson's story. Thorgerson stated that Syd Barrett was intensely upset by the whole incident. This experience alone...IMO...can be attributed to part of his darkness, his mission of acting like he didn't care or seem to care at all about someone's reaction to his odd personality, influencing him to actually take the "dark path", creating odd associations within his songs, but further taking more LSD and drifting further away from life, or that being a state of depression that was beautiful and gave him the desire to live more like a recluse...could all be a reaction from being letdown by a sect...or shut out! In the press for years and the internet vids...you have a entire group of people talking about him and sometimes saying nothing.

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 22:18

I believe that "See Emily Play" was very sincere and it may have been commercial, but it was also odd. Many songwriters obtaining #1's are even more bizarre than Prog musicians. Chi Coltrane is a Pop music writer , loves Prog, and has a different slice of reality. Syd Barrett wasn't exactly The Partridge Family you know? Even his POP songs were strange , arty, and worthy...

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 13 2015 at 22:54

TODDLER wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

brainstormer wrote:

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

It's on Amazon/music

Oh well, I had never thought of looking for BBC recordings from Floyd, since I never knew they officially released any. I wonder if this ones are official or not, but I did find many options on Amazon... and it seemed from different recordings. I guess I'll have to get something out of the choices.

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 00:19

This entire episode of Syd Barrett's "so called" insanity has been a mystery globally for consumers..and all because he played with Pink Floyd and eventually sinking in to people's sub-con..that he was the original leader/founder...writer...and additionally an innovator. The insanity aspect is hyped up quite a bit and makes people who are very interested in his music to be totally curious of why he displayed unusual behavior. To bring that curious nature down a degree, we could sum a percentage of it up by saying that he was an artist. Artists typically display different personalities based on what they are in touch with. Painting or composing can influence or trigger things in your mind that many other people ...who are not born with those abilities will never experience. It's nota hundred percent correct, but it does apply to Syd Barrett to a minimum degree.

Roger Waters stated several times that Syd Barrett was schizophrenic befor he took LSD. Of course many people would immediately think...."Well...that's Roger Waters saying that and if anybody knew Syd Barrett , it was Roger Waters and so he's got to be telling the truth." Not really. If I briefly knew a kid that played bass during my childhood and then developed a closer relationship in our teens, formed a band, became successful and he/she thought all along my actions to be odd or even schizophrenic ..that would be their version of what they thought was the truth. Then one day...I consume LSD and feel burnt and ill from it's aftermath and I am somewhere else and now?...my bass player is giving this opinion that has everything to do with how he/she misunderstood my nature to begin with. Roger Waters was very young and may have misunderstood a natural Avant-Garde eccentric type of person and he additionally may have misunderstood the fringe but surface odd behavior of Syd and taken it as a sign of insanity through fear of his own. This is a shoulda, coulda, maybe this or maybe that...kind of silly debate I'm bringing to the table here, however many of us know that any celebrity can lie about another celebrity/musician or perhaps not lie, but misunderstand something about that person that is deep or interesting , make a statement that most people believe and in the end, create an untrue vision in other's minds. Most people will in fact believe what they have to say about almost anything in life because of their popularity and reputation.

Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 00:42

TODDLER wrote:

Svetonio wrote:

An article from 2006:

Actually, I have been reading that Pete Townshend was a frequent visitor to London's fashionable UFO Club at the time when the Pink Floyd were a 'house band' of the UFO Club. This is another article, written by ex-petetownshend.com admin Matt Kent, in 2007 >>> http://www.brain-damage.co.uk/archive/pete-townshend-remembers-syd-and-early-pink-floyd.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.brain-damage.co.uk/archive/pete-townshend-remembers-syd-and-early-pink-floyd.html

Pete Townshend remembers Syd and early Pink Floyd

http://www.brain-damage.co.uk/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1165&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=52" rel="nofollow"> Print

http://www.brain-damage.co.uk/index2.php?option=com_content&task=emailform&id=1165&itemid=52" rel="nofollow"> E-mail

Written by Matt

Saturday, 07 July 2007

The Who's Pete Townshend keeps a very active blog, and in a good piece of timing with the first anniversary of Syd's passing, has today posted another chapter from his evolving biography.

http://petetownshendwhohe.blogspot.com/2007/07/acidic-cusp-of-66-and-67-and-not-step.html" rel="nofollow - is a fascinating look at Pete's memories of those days, with a focus on a couple of Pink Floyd's early shows.

As part of a tight-knit group of the main characters of the time, including Joe Boyd and Miles, the new drugs on the scene (especially LSD) played a role in proceedings, and it was due to an acid trip that Pete missed one of the only Who shows of his career. Unable to drive the 300 miles to the gig, Pete instead saw Pink Floyd's first show at the UFO.

"They didn’t go on until after midnight. Syd Barrett was wonderful in those days, and so were the rest of them. I immediately fell in love with the band, and the Club itself, and especially John Hopkins (‘Hoppy’ as he was known) who ran the Club and worked the door."

He also went the following night, and the Floyd were on the bill again. "This time I didn’t use acid and I think I took Eric Clapton especially to see Syd who walked on stage – off his head on acid – played a single chord and made it last about an hour using an electronic echo machine called a Binson. When he did start to play again he was truly inspiring, anarchic and experimental..."

Read the whole chapter over at http://petetownshendwhohe.blogspot.com/2007/07/acidic-cusp-of-66-and-67-and-not-step.html" rel="nofollow -

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 01:00

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

brainstormer wrote:

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

It's on Amazon/music

Oh well, I had never though of looking for BBC recordings from Floyd, since I never knew they officially released any. I wonder if this ones are official or not, but I did find many options on Amazon... and it seemed from different recordings. I guess I'll have to get something out of the choices.

If you want Pink Floyd at the BBC with Syd Barrett, then purchase Pink Floyd BBC 1967...(Japanese Import)

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 12:30

TODDLER wrote:

I believe that "See Emily Play" was very sincere and it may have been commercial, but it was also odd. Many songwriters obtaining #1's are even more bizarre than Prog musicians. Chi Coltrane is a Pop music writer , loves Prog, and has a different slice of reality. Syd Barrett wasn't exactly The Partridge Family you know? Even his POP songs were strange , arty, and worthy...

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 12:46

I don't know if he was a genius, I know he was a great musician...But lets be honest, with him Pink Floyd would had never reached the level they reached with Gilmour.

Lets also remember that tragic figures are surrounded by a legend and an aura sometimes bigger than they were.

I always think in Jim Morrison. he was a fat decadent ex-musician who very few remembered on July 2, 1971...But he became an immortal legend on July 3, 1971.

Yes he was amazing, had a fantastic voice, he was at least 50% of The Doors, but if he would had grown old writing average poems in Paris, nobody would remember him.

-------------

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 22:12

TODDLER wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

brainstormer wrote:

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

It's on Amazon/music

If you want Pink Floyd at the BBC with Syd Barrett, then purchase Pink Floyd BBC 1967...(Japanese Import)

Not that I want or prefer Pink Floyd live with Barrett over post-Barrett, just that if I didn't expect to be able to get any of those BBC albums with Gilmour, even less so with Barrett. I found many, but this seem to be the more popular/trustworthy ones. The live at 67 you mentioned, 68/69, 70, and 71. Though on the reviews someone said there were suposed to be 5 of them... perhaps the 5th is the Dark Side of the Moon one, which doesn't seem such a good idea if I have the new version of the studio album which already includes that concert too. However, I guess I really want to get them all, let's see if they are still available while I do buy them. Thanks for the information, it's great to know, there are many live songs from here I really wanted to get. However, I'm particularly curious about Jugband Blues, since I sort of like that one, but don't really dig the war band in the middle, plus, I always thought that song could have been much more.

Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 14 2015 at 22:41

Doesn't Rick sing lead on Matilda Mother ??

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 15 2015 at 02:45

Tom Ozric wrote:

Doesn't Rick sing lead on Matilda Mother ??

I thought it was Syd and now you've got me wondering. I often get mixed up/confused about their vocals.

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 15 2015 at 02:57

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

brainstormer wrote:

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

It's on Amazon/music

If you want Pink Floyd at the BBC with Syd Barrett, then purchase Pink Floyd BBC 1967...(Japanese Import)

I don't believe the salvation army band is present on the BBC recording of Jugband Blues. It might be a kazoo instead? Is that worse for you? BBC '67 is a real treat because of the details that differ completely from Piper. In "The Gnome" when Syd Barrett sings..."And then one day....hooray!"...They all sing "hooray" together which is a minor detail, but sounds rather odd and comically interesting..Lol! I simply love BBC '67 because I never in my life heard different versions of the songs on Piper. Additionally...I have never heard a live concert of the '67 Pink Floyd. I don't mean the BBC, but an actual concert is something I've never heard. It;s just very odd ...sitting and listening to BBC '67. It has really grown on me.

Posted By: symphonicman
Date Posted: August 15 2015 at 18:54

TODDLER wrote:

Tom Ozric wrote:

Doesn't Rick sing lead on Matilda Mother ??

I thought it was Syd and now you've got me wondering. I often get mixed up/confused about their vocals.

It's actually both of them.

-------------
Master James of St. George.
Of the fields and the sky.
He used to build castles of stone, steel, and blood.
But lines get broken down.

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 15 2015 at 22:27

TODDLER wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

brainstormer wrote:

Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?

It's on Amazon/music

If you want Pink Floyd at the BBC with Syd Barrett, then purchase Pink Floyd BBC 1967...(Japanese Import)

I don't really know about the kazoo... I guess I'll have to listen to it. Actually, I already ordered my copies of the 3 BBC albums (67, 70, and 71), so I'll see later on. Damn, I was not planning on spending that money just yet, however, they were the only copies and I didn't want to risk them being sold and not being able to get them for who know how much time (it's happened already to me).

Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 15 2015 at 23:18

The London 66/67 release with the long Interstellar and Nick's Boogie shows off a really creative Syd, right in his element. I could never source the Love In London vinyl, so I never got to hear these pieces in their entirety until it was re-released as the London 1966/67 white vinyl edition. These are historical pieces that reflect Syd really working within the band unit. All guys on the same page etc. Priceless

Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 16 2015 at 12:33

Thanks for the Intel here. I did not realize the BBC 67 had been compiled to a new CD with decent sound. Just ordered a Japan mini, hoping it is as good as the reviews state. It would be great to have a quality CD compilation of live in studio 67 Floyd.

Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: August 17 2015 at 15:44

Hopefully, we'll get an official release, along with some other goodies, with Floyd's 50th anniversary coming up. Sadly, I'm not holding my breath. Unhappy

-------------
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 20 2015 at 09:02

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOdBeLO8PJI

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 21 2015 at 12:38

I've never seen an artist more over appreciated than this one. More hype than hero, I'm afraid.

-------------
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.

Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 21 2015 at 12:53

SteveG wrote:

I've never seen an artist more over appreciated than this one. More hype than hero, I'm afraid.

I have to agree with you....

I honestly don't think his playing or songwriting is anything spectacular. I re-listened to the first two Floyd LP's and the singles they did in those days and while there are indeed some good tracks there isn't anything that makes me think he was a genius.

-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 21 2015 at 12:55

Syd Barrett is actually a perfect example of a real hype.

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 22 2015 at 07:19

SteveG wrote:

I've never seen an artist more over appreciated than this one. More hype than hero, I'm afraid.

Well....he's over hyped because of Rock journalists, record companies..."Harvest" EMI and Pink Floyd themselves who decided to write songs about him which overly appealed to "Pot head" audiences, and overall through the publications industry. That is not Syd Barrett's fault, request, or doing.....Syd Barrett created an original style of music that was influential to artists of the future. That is a true fact..otherwise see if you can disprove it. I can't....but all this other garbage you make reference to is in the hands of jerks who often overrate an artist. Syd Barrett had nothing to do with that. Bob Dylan and Grateful Dead are extremely overrated. Many people are. That doesn't mean they weren't innovators. I don't like Dylan or the Dead and personally don't see how they would be considered great musicians or writers, but I am still graceful enough to understand how they influenced other people. I may not like them....but have respect for their originality and the foundation they laid for musicians who didn't have creative minds to do it on their own..

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 22 2015 at 10:01

TODDLER wrote:

SteveG wrote:

I've never seen an artist more over appreciated than this one. More hype than hero, I'm afraid.

If it makes you feel better Todd, Dylan and the Dead are overrated too.

The inclusion of Barrett along with, or the view that he's superior to, true musical geniuses like Brian Wilson or Lennon & McCartney is an insult to these true music visionaries.

Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 22 2015 at 11:40

An interesting article:

http://johnpeelarchive.com/joe-boyd" rel="nofollow - http://johnpeelarchive.com/joe-boyd

AMM were a group born of philosophy rather than the performance of music, the idea of searching for sound, in a leaderless environment, attempting to create a new type of music altogether. Unlike traditional free improvisation, which created sound and reflected upon itself, AMM sought to continue way past those boundaries.

"This is a very, very obscure record, but kind of legendary" says Joe, "one of the formative things in the creation of what we now think of as Pink Floyd, the long extended solos, the abstract ventures into space with the guitar, it all comes from here". He continues, "Peter Jenner gave this to Syd Barrett and he loved this record, and that took him, combined with his own acid trips, it took him off into space", leading Barrett from quirky little songs like "Arnold Layne" and "Bike" to the drawn out insanity that made them so influential.

(...)

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 23 2015 at 08:14

SteveG wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

SteveG wrote:

I've never seen an artist more over appreciated than this one. More hype than hero, I'm afraid.

If it makes you feel better Todd, Dylan and the Dead are overrated too.

The inclusion of Barrett along with, or the view that he's superior to, true musical geniuses like Brian Wilson or Lennon & McCartney is an insult to these true music visionaries.

He wasn't superior to Wilson and Lennon & McCartney and it wouldn't be fair to say that considering he only did one album, but he did influence many artists over decades nevertheless and maybe if we could change the course of time by taking Piper away or completely out of history...many interesting groups would have in fact not existed . As Roger Waters sits in a chair during an interview and says: "There's got to be a reason why those songs are as good as they are" I'm just wondering as he's saying that if he realizes how lousy some of his songs were on The Wall, W.Y.W.H., Animals and if there is any doubt in his mind as to why or how those songs from Piper could be good, he should take a look around and smell his own garbage or perhaps listen to the Prog bands that sold out in the late 70's and 80's like YES, Genesis, the lame Jethro Tull albums.....I mean...it's a very long list...and Syd's Piper is light years ahead of contrived garbage like that.Lol!

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 23 2015 at 08:20

Svetonio wrote:

An interesting article:

http://johnpeelarchive.com/joe-boyd" rel="nofollow - http://johnpeelarchive.com/joe-boyd

(...)

This is truly interesting. I'd like to purchase this if it's on cd....on another note...Art Zoyd, Univers Zero, Magma, and several other Rio and Prog bands are influenced by experimental 20th century Avant-Garde to form their own Chamber Rock or additives in Prog pieces. In a sense everyone is influenced by something on this earth. That's not the point at all. It's what they take from it to create something new and fresh with it. That's the point with Syd Barrett.

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 23 2015 at 14:05

Early on with Floyd he was good. His solo albums that I have (two) are painful to listen to...

Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: August 23 2015 at 14:49

I like them, but, yeah, to be honest, when I listen to The Madcap Laughs, I replaced "Dark Globe" and "She Took A Long Cold Look" with their alternate takes and an edited version of "If It's In You" without the false starts. Speaking of "If It's In You", is there a cover version out the where it's played as an extend jazz instrumental a la John Coltrane or The Dave Brubeck Quartet?

-------------
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

Posted By: moosehead
Date Posted: August 23 2015 at 14:55

genius

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 23 2015 at 15:54

Slartibartfast wrote:

Early on with Floyd he was good. His solo albums that I have (two) are painful to listen to...

I agree. He didn't have an abundance of coordination that's for sure...and he had a slight stutter. Some of the songs had great potential and could have been re-worked for later Floyd albums. He was never a great musician as he was a writer. "Astronomy Domine" , "Lucifer Sam", "Bike", and "See Emily Play" were based on ideas that no one else had ever thought of. "Black Cat's something I can't explain" is a line of words surrounded by a chilling sustaining organ sound from Rick Wright and the way Syd Barrett sings the song is so unique that I can't imagine anyone else producing a distinctive vocal style running close to it. What I like about Piper is that the band had The Beatles in the next room recording Sgt Pepper and surprisingly they had a complete style of their own. There was the slightness of The Beatles and I believe Syd Barrett was a John Lennon fan, but the album stands on it's own for that period.

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 23 2015 at 19:08

Yesterday I had the desire to listen to Hunky Dory by David Bowie. Rick Wakeman plays beautiful timeless sounding piano and the whole album has a strange flow to it. I'm reading the booklet and suddenly realize there are no credits to Mick Ronson who did all the arrangements on the album. One of his most beautiful arrangements is for "Life On Mars" where the personal aspect of strings is breathtaking like a great Beatles or Brian Wilson song. On the back of the jewel case is the original cover for the LP. There Mick Ronson's name can be seen ...but in a strange insignificant fashion. Why wasn't his name mentioned in the booklet as arranger?

Regarding Syd Barrett...his name is all over the map. "Syd did this and Syd did that" "Syd created Punk" "Syd captured the first time essence of childhood literature within "Rock Music". These are all true facts for a guy who only did one album. His style of writing seemed to first influence David Bowie and later T.REX. I have Dave Brock on an interview tape..where he is asked .."How did you come to form Hawkwind?" Brock replies: "Well...one day I heard this guy running a slide up and down the neck of the guitar and I thought..if Pink Floyd can do it, so can I" So in point you might gather that his opinion of Syd Barrett's playing was "not all that up to par." But still??? There is a crap load of Syd in Hawkwind's music. Lol! You have to listen closely and observe. Daevid Allen was VERY influenced by Syd Barrett...OMG!...."Pothead Pixies"...'I am, you are, we are crazy!" is a definite Syd Barrett style vocal line over top of a weird beat/accents. Amon Duul II and GONG contained theatrics and if you minus the Jazz and focus on the "Space Rock" aspects , it's pretty clear to see that Syd Barrett influenced both bands very highly and because he was an innovator....NOT...a skilled musician...no..not at all. The reason why he is all over the map and constantly overrated is because Pink Floyd gained international fame with their Dark Side Of The Moon album...Lol!! I wouldn't call him a genius and not every innovator is a genius anyway ..so that within itself is rather overrated. But I would gather that his invention of childlike oriented songs ..combined with Rock is very baffling. That sort of perfect , almost untouchable level is a special creation in time and only comes along every so often in life. He did it with one album and to some people ..they find him questionable based on the "one album" reality. Some intelligent people might ponder: "Well...the guy did one album...so...how can all these things being said about him be true?" Nevertheless...many creations in "Space Rock" can be attributed to "Piper" , so maybe that's all we needed ..was one album. One album to get everybody started on a new path within the European underground Progressive Rock scene of the early 70's.

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 23 2015 at 20:15

He was "off balance" physically regarding his inability to play an even measure ...AND.....only on specific songs. Jerry Shirley struggles with "Baby Lemonade" and his drum rolls sound like a person falling down steps. Robert Wyatt may have followed him a little better or just felt the changes with a natural groove. In the beginning ..Syd Barrett wrote uneven measures such as "Bike" where the characteristic of the song was fitting...and actually very witty. Later on during his solo period, these uneven measures seemed to escalate into the worst "hair pulling" recording sessions for the musicians who were there to assist him. To a degree...much of what he WAS producing with his natural felt, but bizarre sounding uneven measures had first derived from Robert Johnson , where the unpredictability existed of Johnson..(not only playing uneven measures), but changing the chord in a 4 bar Blues whenever he felt like it...making it virtually impossible for any musician to follow him.

A musician could commonly predict when the singer was about to switch to the next chord..by realizing how many sentences in the song were sang just prior to switching. However..throughout time..musicians weren't always able to predict the actual "beat" of the switch and they would get thrown off. Syd Barrett played his songs in this style ...but more with a British sound and occasionally a Blues song or two...like "Masie". Much of his solo material truly lacks in the area of having tightness. Some songs sound like "Garage Band" mentality ...especially some of the backing for "Gigolo Aunt". "Dominoes" redone by David Gilmour sheds light on Syd Barrett's talent. It's only about 4 chords, but it makes a great Pink Floyd song. "Astronomy Domine" on Pink Floyd's "Pulse" album is magnificent! David Gilmour had a deep sensibility toward Barrett's music and understood it's potential..obviously. His versions of Barrett songs in the modern day are revealing and telling.

All the personal interest in his mysterious insanity is quite overblown...and to the point where people have to look up Iggy Rose , posting her face on the internet, looking her up after she's vanished for decades, and going the distance to investigate Barrett's relationship with her and as Syd would say..."They can play anything they'd like"...Any game..is what you mean? Paparazzi's were hounding him for decades and it was ridiculous for sure. If Pink Floyd had broken up after MEDDLE..this probably wouldn't have occurred. But then Syd Barrett may have never received a load of royalty checks ..life sure has a sick sense of humor.

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 23 2015 at 21:43

Yeah, I also love the way Gilmour has played some of Syd's songs. I hope he has a new one for the new tour.

Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: August 23 2015 at 22:15

TODDLER wrote:

Yesterday I had the desire to listen to Hunky Dory by David Bowie. Rick Wakeman plays beautiful timeless sounding piano and the whole album has a strange flow to it. I'm reading the booklet and suddenly realize there are no credits to Mick Ronson who did all the arrangements on the album. One of his most beautiful arrangements is for "Life On Mars" where the personal aspect of strings is breathtaking like a great Beatles or Brian Wilson song. On the back of the jewel case is the original cover for the LP. There Mick Ronson's name can be seen ...but in a strange insignificant fashion. Why wasn't his name mentioned in the booklet as arranger?

...

Which version of Hunky Dory are you referring to? I have the 1999 Vrigin/EMI master in my hands and it mentions Ronson as an arranger and which tracks he did.

Back on topic...

TODDLER wrote:

He was "off balance" physically regarding his inability to play an even measure ...AND.....only on specific songs. Jerry Shirley struggles with "Baby Lemonade" and his drum rolls sound like a person falling down steps. Robert Wyatt may have followed him a little better or just felt the changes with a natural groove. In the beginning ..Syd Barrett wrote uneven measures such as "Bike" where the characteristic of the song was fitting...and actually very witty. Later on during his solo period, these uneven measures seemed to escalate into the worst "hair pulling" recording sessions for the musicians who were there to assist him. To a degree...much of what he WAS producing with his natural felt, but bizarre sounding uneven measures had first derived from Robert Johnson , where the unpredictability existed of Johnson..(not only playing uneven measures), but changing the chord in a 4 bar Blues whenever he felt like it...making it virtually impossible for any musician to follow him.

...

Funny thing, I'm listening to "Jugband Blues" which could be the quintessential example of what you said. The first 13 seconds are, if I got my music timing right, 3/4, 0:14 - 0:21 are in 2/4 and then goes into I dunno what with the "Old shoes" section before going back to 3/4, then the middle part and freak out section are in 4/4, then ending in a slower 3/4. All in under three minutes, and he somehow manages to make it work. I never heard anything like that at the time.

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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 24 2015 at 10:03

TODDLER wrote:

SteveG wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

SteveG wrote:

I've never seen an artist more over appreciated than this one. More hype than hero, I'm afraid.

If it makes you feel better Todd, Dylan and the Dead are overrated too.

The inclusion of Barrett along with, or the view that he's superior to, true musical geniuses like Brian Wilson or Lennon & McCartney is an insult to these true music visionaries.

He wasn't superior to Wilson and Lennon & McCartney and it wouldn't be fair to say that considering he only did one album, but he did influence many artists over decades nevertheless and maybe if we could change the course of time by taking Piper away or completely out of history...many interesting groups would have in fact not existed . As Roger Waters sits in a chair during an interview and says: "There's got to be a reason why those songs are as good as they are" I'm just wondering as he's saying that if he realizes how lousy some of his songs were on The Wall, W.Y.W.H., Animals and if there is any doubt in his mind as to why or how those songs from Piper could be good, he should take a look around and smell his own garbage or perhaps listen to the Prog bands that sold out in the late 70's and 80's like YES, Genesis, the lame Jethro Tull albums.....I mean...it's a very long list...and Syd's Piper is light years ahead of contrived garbage like that.Lol!

This type of explanation only works if one agrees that that "those songs are as good as they are." Look who's doing the talking, Roger Waters, the key purveyor of Syd's mythical status. What was he supposed to say after mythicizing Barrett in not only song but with an entire album? Give me a break, Barrett was a second rate hack and PF was the better for his withdrawal from the group, regardless of the circumstances. What would the group have developed had Barrett never left them? An album called "The Dark Side Of the Gnome?"

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 24 2015 at 12:57

SteveG wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

SteveG wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

SteveG wrote:

I've never seen an artist more over appreciated than this one. More hype than hero, I'm afraid.

If it makes you feel better Todd, Dylan and the Dead are overrated too.

The inclusion of Barrett along with, or the view that he's superior to, true musical geniuses like Brian Wilson or Lennon & McCartney is an insult to these true music visionaries.

He wasn't superior to Wilson and Lennon & McCartney and it wouldn't be fair to say that considering he only did one album, but he did influence many artists over decades nevertheless and maybe if we could change the course of time by taking Piper away or completely out of history...many interesting groups would have in fact not existed . As Roger Waters sits in a chair during an interview and says: "There's got to be a reason why those songs are as good as they are" I'm just wondering as he's saying that if he realizes how lousy some of his songs were on The Wall, W.Y.W.H., Animals and if there is any doubt in his mind as to why or how those songs from Piper could be good, he should take a look around and smell his own garbage or perhaps listen to the Prog bands that sold out in the late 70's and 80's like YES, Genesis, the lame Jethro Tull albums.....I mean...it's a very long list...and Syd's Piper is light years ahead of contrived garbage like that.Lol!

I have to admit...that is very funny. "Dark Side Of The Gnome" I busted out..... Well Steve...I agree that Pink Floyd were much better off without him. I have a place in my heart for those early Floyd albums beginning with More and ending with Obscured By Clouds. It's sad to think that Barrett couldn't have contributed to those albums with songs like "Dominoes", "Golden Hair" , and "Wolf Pack"....where members of Floyd would have developed those songs dimensionally to be actual Pink Floyd songs. They are actually very unique songs presented like bare bones on the Barrett albums. It would have been really cool to hear Pink Floyd do them in the studio. I think of the band as brothers and Syd Barrett as one of those brothers. He was the main writer for the original Pink Floyd and the band observed him from a learning standpoint. On a personal note...you may dislike his music and possibly it does nothing for you. He lacked in the area of being skilled guitarist...I can tell you that?? Lol! I guess it was his writing in '67 and his overall presence that set the Floyd on fire. Have you ever watched Nick Mason on Syd Barrett vid on Y.T.? Nick Mason nails the definition of Barrett's songwriting style and uniqueness.

Posted By: Guy_Debord_68
Date Posted: August 24 2015 at 14:59

I think Syd was touched by something very special. Other worldly almost. He created things of beauty but also things that should gave had people fearing the worst at the time of recording. I love David Gilmour for looking after Syds interedts but i find his blues rock axe hero wailing soul destroying.

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To every age its art. To every art its freedom.

Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 24 2015 at 15:41

Syd was indeed touched by something special...LSD. Wink

As to Gilmore's blues axe....imho Waters was the one who took control of Floyd and turned it into a personal platform for his views on alienation of the self and political and societal angst.

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 24 2015 at 15:48

Guy_Debord_68 wrote:

I think Syd was touched by something very special. Other worldly almost. He created things of beauty but also things that should gave had people fearing the worst at the time of recording. I love David Gilmour for looking after Syds interedts but i find his blues rock axe hero wailing soul destroying.

Gilmour blues rock axe is soul destroying? Perhaps you were touched by the same substance that touched Syd.

Posted By: Guy_Debord_68
Date Posted: August 24 2015 at 16:06

Possibly. I used to nick my mums Mandies when i was a kid. Opening guitar riffs to Interstellar Overdrive or interminable bendy note sustain axe w**kery? I know what i'd go for every time..

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To every age its art. To every art its freedom.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 24 2015 at 16:18

Floyd Council and Pink Anderson must be spinning in their graves~

Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 25 2015 at 06:36

[QUOTE=dr wu23]Syd was indeed touched by something special...LSD. Wink

We can thank Dr. Timothy Leary for that. Dr. Timothy Leary who said that LSD was good for everyone.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 25 2015 at 14:06

^Yes, it's all Timothy Leary's fault. He put a gun to Syd's head and made him take 300 LSD trips against his will.

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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.

Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: August 25 2015 at 17:04

SteveG wrote:

^Yes, it's all Timothy Leary's fault. He put a gun to Syd's head and made him take 300 LSD trips against his will.

Actually we should be blaming Albert Hoffman who actually discovered it accidentally while looking for a different drug response entirely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Hofmann" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Hofmann

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin