Your thoughts on metal?
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=101138
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Topic: Your thoughts on metal?
Posted By: TradeMark0
Subject: Your thoughts on metal?
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 22:18
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I have seen some generally negative opinions on metal music by some posters in other threads. Many of whom seem to prefer rock over metal. I'm curious to see what other people here think of metal. I used to be into metal at one point in the past, but it has grown off me over time. I have grown more interested in other more creative and diverse types of music. While I have nothing against metal, I find it very bland and uninteresting to me. Some might argue how metal has adopted influences from other genres of music such as Baroque, Free jazz, and 20th century classical music, but I have personally found all of those genres to be a more rewarding listen than metal. I don't mean to provoke negative responses, and I also don't believe in judging others on their taste in music. I just want to hear the honest opinions of others here. |
Replies:
Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 22:25
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Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 22:26
 Listen to it less than I used to- but that's natural. There is plenty of diversity of it- just like any genre. ------------- |
Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 22:30
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Metal happens to be my favorite genre of music, been listening to it all my life. As far as finding it boring, there is a LOT of diversity in metal. Just listen to some avant-garde metal bands like UneXpect, and you'll hear how diverse it can be. But if metal isn't your thing, it's not your thing, and that's fine.
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Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 22:50
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Love metal much as I do quite a few genres. Particularly like most doom metal, and a good selection of various prog and black metals. To be honest, really tired of people calling metal "bland", "uncreative", "bad musical influence", etc.
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Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 22:51
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I started with early hard rock bands like The Jeff Beck Group. When hair bands came around I listened to Skid Row, Mr Big, Whitesnake and Lynch Mob. Around that same time there was Ozzy and Corrosion Of Conformity. Then it was metal bands like Pantera, Testament, Anthrax and Metallica. More recently it's been Down, Chevelle, Drowning Pool, Monster Magnet, Orange Goblin and The Gracious Few. Loud and obnoxious guitar has always caught my attention.
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Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 22:56
Here Here  In fact, it's anything but
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Lear'sFool wrote:Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 23:14
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Bland, boring, uncreative, etc etc. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 23:34
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I like metal, but I guess I lean toward heavy metal and progressive side of things. I just like catchy choruses, sing-along lyrics, a good solo, and something powerful sometimes. Of course some cheese is ok, but I think if it's done tastefully (Iron Maiden), then we don't have much to be embarrassed about. I listen to a lot of music for different reasons, and metal has its place. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 23:50
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I don't necessarily like a lot of the material under the prog metal tag here on the archives, but I like plenty of bands from the exp/post metal tag and a few from the tech/extreme tag. In fact, if I'm honest, most of the prog being made these days that I actually like comes from the exp/post tag, although I don't really know enough to be called a metalhead. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 00:00
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 01:19
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As in any other genre, i find good and bad in Metal ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 01:54
Pretty much. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: MetaQuorum
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 04:47
Metal was my favourite kind of music for years, I joined a metalband when I was thirteen. I very much liked bands like Watchtower, Realm, Mekong Delta etc. And I think there are still some very creative metalbands like Spastic Ink, Voivod, Liquid Tension Experiment etc. Greetings, Koos ------------- http://metaquorum.uk" rel="nofollow - http://metaquorum.uk https://www.facebook.com/MetaQuorum" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/MetaQuorum |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 05:13
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I love metal like a tooth loves drills... ------------- 
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 05:24
^so you're a fan then I take it? I dig the old school metal (80s) but recently I've become quite fond of the more droney type stuff like Boris and OM. I also dig Arcturus, shels and Shining - the latter being almost "too crazy to be called metal" (a friend of mine said that the last time I visited Copenhagen  )------------- The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 05:29
| I got into metal in the early 90's just a little after I got into music. Still love all those 80's metal bands I used to play but now I hardly try new stuff. |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 07:35
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I take metal with a grain of salt. some of it is fun, but I've always found that it takes itself way to seriously. (my exposure - my experience) I love Ramstein because it's tongue in cheek .. but i'm betting it's too commercial to be considered metal these days. I have a lot of what used to be considered metal - ACDC was metal at one point .. but 'metal' seems to keep evolving into something harder and faster, and there's so many subgenres of it mostly I just think it's funny. lots of hair, lots of noise, lots of posturing. ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 07:41
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Not one of my favorite genres, and until just a few years ago I assumed that metal never got further out than Metallica. How wrong I was. I think it was my discovery of drone and doom (Sunn 0))), Boris, et al) that got me interested again. I say "again", because like most teenagers of the 80s, I was briefly a fan of Def Leppard, Scorpions, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and others of that ilk. But hair metal eventually lost its edge IMO and I moved on to other things. I still enjoy music of that era from time to time. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 08:02
| I love metal. My favorite is Devin Townsend,'then Imhit up the 'avant-gard' metal bands even though I feel they are rarely actually such. Stuff like Unexpect, Stolen Babies, Pin-Up Went Down, Akphaezya, maudlin of the Well, Diablo Swing Orchestra, etc. really get me going. Then some prog metal like Opeth and Animals as Leaders. Sleepy time Gorilla Museum and other bands like Dog Fashion Disco and Mr Bungle that use heavy guitars are sometimes called metal and I'm generally a fan of them as well. And I love me a little Luca Turilli (power-metal) for some cheese from time to time. |
Posted By: addictedtoprog
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 09:25
My avatar says something i guess.  Metal is a huge genre in itself. I've seen some people here who r like, "i'll vote against every metal band i come across on the forum." Maybe they cud find something to their liking if they patiently explore metal-related genres like they did wid their other beloved genres. Tastes are subjective. But tastes do change. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 11:16
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^Been meaning to listen to Enslaved. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: Wakeman's Birotron
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 11:36
| Back when I started listening to prog I didn't like metal at all, but the transition came naturally, first with bands that can be more categotized as Heavy Prog, like Rush, Dream Theater, Tool and Porcupine Tree. Now, although I prefer rock and jazz, Opeth is one of my very favorite bands, along with King Crimson, Yes, Banco, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Maneige, Le Orme, PFM, Rush, etc. Though they're the only metal band I consider as one of my favorites. |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 11:58
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Riitiir is a great album. Probably my favorite by Enslaved. I guess I never defined myself as a full-fledged metalhead though currently I'm having Dodheimsgard's "Supervillain Outcast" blasting through my headphones. I just started listening to rock that was interesting, and slowly started listening to more and more metal bands that did things that were "out there". I never really grew up on Iron Maiden or Metallica or something, but these days I'd say a very fair percentage of the music I listen to could be considered metal in one way or another. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:10
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=16768" rel="nofollow"> Me Like!
 Me Like! |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:14
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I like Black Sabbath, Motorhead, Ted Nugent, and Bad News. Four will do. ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:18
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^Me like you! ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:34
The majority of metal music is influenced by baroque music. This is even more apparent with symphonic and neoclassical metal. Most of the technical innovations made in "experimental" metal can be attributed to to free jazz and 20th century classical music. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:38
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^I think I just heard some old black American Blues guitarist turnover in his grave. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 13:04
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I prefer my metal to be weird as all hell could ever be. But I listen to a ton of it. ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 14:23
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 15:00
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It's total άbermensch music. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 15:13
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it's good times music man... music is for the heart.. not the brain.. when it is Friday evening and you want to get revv'd up before you hit the town. Psyching yourself to drink everyone and anyone under the table, to kick ass and take names, and at the end of the evening.. leaving the bar with a pretty blond tossed over your shoulder.. you don't put on f**king Genesis... you put on METAL!! you put on RATT dude. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 16:58
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In my musical tastes I know where I draw the line between Hard Rock and Heavy Metal. On the Heavy Metal Music page at Wiki eleven sub genres are listed as well as eighteen fusion genres. I know that critics, writers of reviews and magazine articles like to dissect and categorize everything. Is it necessary to go this far? The first year the Grammys included a heavy metal category it was won by Jethro Tull when most fans expected it to go to Metallica. Obviously, the insiders that vote (and nominate) were unclear about the new category. The next year Metallica did win and Lars Ulrich began his acceptance speech with, "First of all, we would like to thank Jethro Tull for not releasing an album this year." Do we really need all of these categories and sub categories and on and on?
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Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 17:19
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^ Taking a look at Wiki's choices: There is no need for the "extreme metal" page. Sludge metal and stoner rock can be folded into doom. Alt metal, rap metal, and nu metal can all be folded together. Viking metal belongs in black metal. Drone metal can be folded into doom, but it could go either way.
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Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 17:41
I have listened to all of those. Opeth and Kayo Dot used to be my favorite metal bands. I should of mentioned that when I was into metal I explored every inch of it. |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 18:17
I see what you mean. I have always been more attracted to music for the brain. Even when I was into metal, I went for the more unconventional bands. I guess metal just wasn't for me. |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 18:29
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I don't listen to much of the stuff, but the bands I do listen to, I really like - Black Sabbath, some of Ozzy's solo stuff, Judas Priest, Motφrhead, AC/DC and Dio-era Rainbow (do the latter two count as metal?). Also been looking to get into some more of Iron Maiden's material (I only have Number Of The Beast). ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 18:40
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Nothing makes your private parts tingle more than a good bass line at a metal concert  
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 18:44
You've never heard bands like Psychostick. They are my friends because they have songs about DOGS!!!! |
Posted By: infernalfrog
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 18:46
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I always was and alway will be a metal fan. I'm particularly love what they call Folk Metal, bands like Alestorm, Metsatφll, Mδgo de Oz, such a happy mood, alway good to drink with. ahhaha Some people use to say that metal is uncreative and all that sh*t. You just listened to the right bands bro. Just like there's great and crap bands and prog, there's great and crap bands in metal too. I use to list black metal into the crap ones, such a funny genre, all that corpse paint and satan stuff. And micky sayd everything, you don't put Genesis when you want to punch an a****le face, you put metal.
 WOW! much intelectual such nerdy wowjust kidding bro, don't take it seriously
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Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 18:50
And don't stop there! It's time for the NEKROGOBLIKON!!! |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 19:12
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^ Haha! Good stuff that Nekrogoblikon Here's another classic from GREEN JELLY that proves metal can have a demented sense of humor |
Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 19:12
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What about some Tenacious D |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 19:19
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^ Your video didn't go thru, Pastmaster so i'll post it here. THAT Tenacious D video is a CLASSIC!!!!! |
Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 19:21
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Huh, that's strange, I see it fine. Does it have to be the URL or the link when you click share?
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 19:28
Well, i see it but it doesn't play. Says video no longer works. I think it's a defect in the video otherwise it wouldn't display here 
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 19:34
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Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Scorpions, MSG, Rainbow, Dio.....old school metal I like. -------------   
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Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 19:46
Oh, now I see. It's been disabled for sites other then YT
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 09:18
hell yeah! Same here.. but in addition I am a card carrying member of the 80's hair metal fanclub... they taught us how to love... they taught us how to live... remember....every badboy.. has his soft side it was post 90's metal that lost me.. I've slowly been getting back into that. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 09:20
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 09:59
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Songs about animals? That's tame! What about songs SUNG by animals? //www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/" rel="nofollow - |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:03
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YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hatebeak rules!!! Damnit...I have to give you another forum 'like' on that one.  I'm never going to catch you.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:06
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Hair bands! What about hair bands? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:10
seriously man... who didn't want to have hair like this http://s641.photobucket.com/user/Glam-Sixx-Crue/media/nikkisixx-1.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:23
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Used to be a huge metal fan. My 'problem' was I liked and always will like lots of other music and I eventually got sick of some of my metal loving friends berating my preferences in music just because some of the bands I liked weren't metal. Also, the almost assembly-line uniformity in a lot of metal which makes it hard to drill down to the albums that are interesting, more so because the fans seem to seek out more metal that is like metal they already have. Staying metal matters more than creativity. Whatever. Got sick of the posturing eventually. But I still love blasting some of my favourite metal albums from time to time. There's nothing like some magnificent crushing metal riffage to get the adrenaline pumping.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:23
what about them? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:33
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:39
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I love many different kinds of metal when I'm in the mood, although I can't call my myself all that well informed about metal, I know I've only scratched the surface. I've tried to listen to a wide variety and write about some of these bands from the view of a relative newbie. I've been pleasantly surprised. As to the debate about metal's validity in the "prog scene", I couldn't care less. I'm only here for love of music, not whether something is "progressive" or not. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:42
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^ Well said FF. I enjoy a wide verity of music as well as you. Whatever moves me at the moment is all that's important. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 12:40
 One thing though: there's not a rock band whose "experimentalism" can't be attributed to free jazz and modern classical. That's because once you get to aleatory and free improvisation, there's not much further you can go in a closed system like Western music theory (aside from noise maybe). If you try to evaluate rock and metal based on Western music theory, you'll probably not find anything that goes further than free jazz or modern classical. Both rock and metal are "post-rules" i.e. rock and metal musicians and fans base the word "innovation" on things that sound and feel new not necessarily breaking the "rules" of Western theory, all of which, at this point, have been long broken. I dig free jazz and modern classical, but the metal bands I like that incorporate those influences to create what is, to me, a unique experience that I can't get in free jazz or modern classical, even if they are using the same compositional techniques. So it's not a divide between emotional and intellectual. The experimental metal bands you listened to, and prog rock are both intellectual and emotional to some extent (that's right, micky, metal can be intellectual), but the emotional aspect of metal is one that doesn't reach you like the emotions found in free jazz and modern classical, if I understand correctly. Although, I can concur, that when I hear a band like Between the Buried and Me (not to single any band out), there's nothing that feels special about them, especially because, like you, I'm not so dazzled by the technical aspects of the composition which I have seen a million times before in aforementioned genres. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 12:51
dude.. we are all walking talking corpses here man. One idiot driver or psycho wack job with a gun.. away from being a cold silent one. Come on.... need a better rebuttal. Look at that hair.. tell me you didn't wish you had it, and half the life he probably lived. Do we envy rock musicians for their talent.. pfff.. hell no.. most them have little more than we do.. we envy them for their fame and the fringe benefits. Hair metal was the culmination of the true rock and roll life style.. instead of being covered in RS mag.. it was covered on MTV.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 13:12
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micky, you asked who would not want to look like that. Not who would. Only a dead man would not want to live that kind of life. And have you ever seen Sixx's wife?  hubba hubba!------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 13:58
oh and on his wife... I make it point not to sneak peaks at other men's wives.. or other women.. it keeps Raff from tossing cookware at me and screaming at me in (her VERY sexy) Italian. as far as she knows... I see no other women but her. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 14:33
^Duh! My bad!  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 14:42
she's likely already pissed at me as it is.. any more and I'll be sleeping on the couch tonight.tonight might not be a good night to do that Stevie Nicks: Rhiannon v. Sara poll you promised me. I don't need to go on about how much I fantasized about Stevie. Make that one tomorrow dude. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 15:22
Righteous!
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 15:55
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Likewise this band has REAL dogs singing! Or growling and barking rather |
Posted By: twalsh
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 17:28
Roger that. Lol. Most metal fans (maybe fans of most music?) are conservative and simply want more of what they like. Nothing wrong with this, but I want a little more variety. Metal was the music of my teens and affected me deeply. Although I like nuance and sophistication in my music, i have trouble maintaining any interest in music that has no heaviness or aggression whatsoever. And sometimes I just want that adrenaline rush. For the fans, one of my favorite 'metal screams.' ------------- More heavy prog, please! |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 18:41
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At this point in history METAL music is an entire universe not just a small sub genre of the larger rock world possibly exceeding its scope in terms of sheer size surpassing progressive rock, indie rock or other niches. Of course many of this genres crossover. The truth of the matter in regard to the primary focus of this thread is that metal can be as simple or complex as your heart's desire with every shade varying in between. I have been a metalhead all my doggie days and still feel like i only scratch the surface of what's out there despite listening to new stuff every day. These sub genres of metal are little sub universes of their own with countless varieties of acts to choose from. Needless to say, i love metal. BTW i'm on the Errors & Omissions team on our sister site MMA so i have been getting more than my fill of new stuff! 
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Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 19:12
Completely agree |
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 19:25
I was good with very early Motley Crue and Ratt, as I grew up in SoCal, but then hair metal just really turned me off. Even the crue after 2nd album I was pretty much done and I was full on prog, which in SoCal was pretty good FM radio wise and record stores had a good selection. Bands like Scorps, Priest, Triumph, Maiden got me thru that hair metal period.... -------------
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Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 23:44
I generally agree with your post. I would like to point out that I don't necessarily care about the fact that metal isn't groundbreaking (many classical composers weren't groundbreaking either), but rather I find the diversity that metal is praised of isn't that great when compared with classical and jazz. I also think metal sounds too "compressed". I like hearing dynamics between soft and loud and highs and lows. Also, Noise is a perfectly viable direction for music to go in and it has been. I enjoy noise composers, especially Stockhausen. I actually still enjoy Black Sabbath, Especially their first album. I would like to note that it contains all the elements that would later become cliches in the metal genre. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 23:55
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 18:11
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Awful, hate it, shouldn't be included in prog -------------  Time always wins. |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: February 01 2015 at 19:26
Would you care to explain? |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: February 04 2015 at 05:08
Hey, don't feed the troll. |
Posted By: Phaolrym
Date Posted: February 04 2015 at 06:21
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The thing I know for certain is that, the more I got into metal, the more picky I've become. I realized at some point that I don't like artificial experimentation, pretentious sophistication in metal; on the other hand I don't also like too generic and uncreative metal. My favourite metal sub-genre is prog metal, but there did (and may still) come a time when i like(d) bands from most of the other sub-genres. I also find "all metal is this, all metal is that" comments bland and pretentious, and have serious doubts about the background -of knowledge and experience- behind these words. |