Mahavishnu Orchestra
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=100921
Printed Date: March 12 2025 at 16:39
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Topic: Mahavishnu Orchestra
Posted By: Skullhead
Subject: Mahavishnu Orchestra
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 22:11
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I have wondered for years why MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA is not considered one of the giants of prog or spoken in the same light as YES, ELP, TULL, CRIMSON, GENTLE GIANT, PINK FLOYD. I know the quick answer is going to be "it's jazz fusion". But isn't King Crimson the prog version of jazz or filled with jazz? Mahavishnu, it certainly rocks. It's totally cutting edge for the time. Nearly every song is in an odd time signature. Johnny Mac played a double neck guitar, so it even looks prog. They toured extensively and sold a lot of albums. We have extreme virtuosity on every chair, and beautiful passages of classical music influence woven into many of the pieces. Beautiful melodic melodies that are more than memorable. Birds of Fire, Inner Mounting Flame, Visions of the Emerald Beyond, Apocalypse. Assuming you are familiar with ALL of these works... What is your take? |
Replies:
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 22:32
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The only reason that they being fusion is a short answer to your question is the fact that fusion isn't symph, which is enough for some of the really close minded progheads to shun them. Certainly they don't deserve that kind of treatment. Their first two albums alone cemented their place in prog history. They rocked hard, fast, and technical, and the latter part works so well because of the sheer passion each member of the band brought with them. It is just a joy to listen to them. And then they did tracks like "Hope", so there's some extra variety even. In fact, despite all coming from the jazz side of fusion, they of course were equally rockers of the highest order. Most rock fans, if they gave the band a chance, would fall in love with them.
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 23:13
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I first heard them when my main bands were Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, and Black Sabbath and they completely and utterly blew me away. Part of it was the sheer madness of energy they demonstrated but a lot of it was also the distorted tones they used. In a lot of ways they were metal because they rocked as hard as anybody else at the time. Even now, with a long established metal genre, their music still rocks as hard as anybody else. They are the best place for rockers to start exploring fusion, better than Return to Forever or Weather Report (both of which I love). ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 23:51
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But don't you think some of the track sound very symphonic also? Certainly Apocalypse? Yes? From Wiki: McLaughlin had particular ideas for the instrumentation of the group,
in keeping with his highly original concept of genre-blending in
composition. He particularly wanted a violinist as an integral
contributor to its overall sound. As the group evolved, McLaughlin
adopted what became his visual trademark — a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_neck_guitar" rel="nofollow - (six-string and twelve-string) which allowed for a great degree of
diversity in musical textures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_neck_guitar" rel="nofollow - double neck guitar.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moog_synthesizer" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moog_synthesizer" rel="nofollow - Hammer became one of the first to play
a Mini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moog_synthesizer" rel="nofollow - Moog synthesizer in an ensemble, which enabled him to add more sounds and solo more freely, alongside the guitar and the violin. How can it get more prog? Even a Guru in the mix... |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 23:59
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^ Of course, but with Inner Mounting Flame and Birds of Fire so highly recommended compared to it, you'll find people going there and not liking them, and so not giving Apocalypse its fair shake. So yes, Apocalypse was brilliantly symphonic, with the kind of prog band plus orchestra interplay only matched by Days of Future Passed and Yes's Symphonic Live. Mahavishnu might have already earned their corn with their first two, but the real hidden treat is their third. If Apocalypse got anywhere near as many recs as the first two, then we'd see the overly symph-happy crowd get into a Mahavishnu album for once. Heck, one negative review of Apocalypse called it too symphonic for that reviewer's tastes! You are more than right.
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Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 00:02
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They lack badly on the melody side. They are more about soloing. I only like the occasional song(usually slower tracks). Great musicians but I don't enjoy them much. Not really a fan of McLaughlins guitar style or sound and I don't like violin/fiddle unless it's classical style ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 00:09
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I was late coming to the party with Mahavishnu. This is one of the reasons I don't listen to much new prog because if I missed this body of work from the 70's, what else have I missed? I can't imagine anyone who has been properly turned on to Mahavishnu would instead buy a new copycat prog release instead of the rest of the Mahavishnu catalog. I mean this is essential stuff is it not? |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 00:13
I have to disagree, I think they have amazingly strong melodies, quite often. Lot's of soloing but didn't ELP have lots of soloing? |
dr prog wrote:Posted By: twalsh
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 00:45
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I checked these guys out years ago after reading a Miles Davis bio. I'm not into Miles or most jazz, but the book led me to Mahavishnu Orchestra and I was really impressed. I haven't heard much that combines jazz arrangements with often heavy guitar so nicely! ------------- More heavy prog, please! |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 00:57
It is easy to forget Apocalypse or any of the ensuing albums under the Mahavishnu moniker, but I find it an excellent album. It may not have the same ferocity as the earlier recordings but it has plenty of energy and taking the concept of orchestra more literally it has a lot to offer. And besides, it also features Jean-Luc Ponty, keeping the violin sound intact yet more refined. It angered many people for many different reasons. The rockers and fusionists indeed found it too symphonic but the classicists hated it so much it almost destroyed the career of Michael Tilson Thomas. It is precisely such a mix that attracts my attention. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 01:42
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Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 01:44
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Aside from the band's not being song oriented, Mahavishnu has genuine prog moments but is most of time busy and tends to feel "horizontal". Isn't prog about being more vertical, taking more time for contemplation, emphasing more each asthmatic blows propelling us into the sky, and being more relaxed... ------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 01:57
| ^ Prog can go either way. Crimson and the Giant's hardly relaxed, just to start... |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 02:16
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I think they were/are a bit overlooked very much like Gentle Giant were. Tremendous musicians without doubt. At school I can remember people going on about Billy Cobham so I guess he was the one who managed to have a successful solo career beyond the band. Oh and isn't the name just a bit confusing? Why did they choose it?
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 02:29
McLaughlin was into Indo/Raga, he has some excellent works with Zakir Hussain and Krishna Bhatt, so that name is not a big surprise. I don't think they are in the same league of the bigs, but only because they are different. We could make the same considerations for bands like Magma, Tangerine Dream, Area and Art Zoyd. Excellent musicianship and innovative music, but the "big ones" had huge commercial success and are known also by the mainstream listeners, at least by name. This is what classifies them as "bigs". Personally I don't like Genesis, so being "a big" doesn't mean that I must like it more than the so-called second league. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 04:10
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Instumental or not they were once hugely successful compared to Gentle Giant and Genesis as well. All their 1971-1976 albums charted in the us and many other counties. Here's a slightly vulgar comparison and not totally fair. They are like the early 70's jazz-rockfusion version of Dream Theater. Most noobs curious of jazz(rock) are blown away hearing MO's two first albums. Myself included. After a while their frenetic noodling and constantly showing off chops combined with lack of substance gets tiresome. Especially after you discover all the real great stuff that's out there. Excellent musicians that were put to use better in other constallations (I have not heard Apocalypse, though). That said some of Inner Mountain Flame and Birds of Fire's quieter moments are not without beauty.
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 04:16
The difference I was mentioning is about the mainstream listeners. Everybody knows Genesis, Yes and Pink Floyd. In this sense Gentle Giant are second league as well as Mahavishnu. I'm considering only the years up to 1977 more or less. Nothing to do with the beauty of their music. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 04:39
Eh, eh...Crimson has the storms and rushes that made them so enjoyable, but you also have chillouts like after the LTIA I solo, or they have Exiles, and Trio. We'll Let You Know takes its time. So much more "relaxed" times than in Mahavishnu. Giant feels much less "speedy" and on the nerve, esp when sung falsetto. Mahavishnu...Very long busy tracks, and in some ways less contrasting moods and tracks than KC or Giant...
------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 04:44
Gentle giant were great composers though. ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 04:46
Gentle giant were probably the ultimate prog band. Surely not 2nd league ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:00
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There was one time when Prog Rock and Jazz-Rock were considered as 2 different things, so it's quite logical that MO were then not considered among the bigs of Prog Rock, but they were always the bigs of Jazz-Rock together with Return To Forever, Weather Report etc (and consequently equivalent to the big Prog giants, although Jazz-Rock was less commercially successful). KC (or other bands) may have infiltrated jazz elements in their Prog but they defined much of the symphonic sound with their seminal early works so by the time they had become more experimental they were already considered Prog Rock giants by many.
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Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:01
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I can't speak for the humankind in general, but I could tell you why I never listen to Mahavishnu Orchestra (while recognizing their talent and innovation). Based on the Birds, Emerald, Flame and another album, the name of which I forgot; Goodman's violentin is highly irritating; things got better wtih J-L.P, but I prefer his solo albums. McLaughlin's guitar is highly irritating; he gets mellower and more listenable towards the Radioland. Cobham's drumming is highly irritating, with Maha or solo. They create a ragged, jagged, serrated pile-up of sound that takes too much effort to process. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:05
I find them to be a compositional mess. I much prefer prog fusion bands such as Hatfield, National health and Gilgamesh who had some real catchy melodies mixed with crazy jazz impro bits. I never found mahavishnu to be catchy or cool. I only like classical violin too. That American country violin should be banned with the banjo and bagpipes  ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:07
I agree with this. i have immense respect for them as musicians, but to me they epitomize the ol fusion downfall of 'all chops and no sauce'. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:11
I agree but I do like cobhams drumming. I think Inner worlds is their best album. It's more relaxed, has no violin from what I remember and has some catchy moments ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:18
What I wrote wasn't in response to your post. But partly to Svetonio's "theory" and explaining how popular they actually once were. Despite being fully instrumental and without hits.
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:52
The Mahavishnu Orchestra and especially John McLaughlin was/is slightly overrated. John McLaughlin was pionneering in jazz-rock and he is one of iconic figures of the genre without a shade of doubt, but his stuff not passed test of time so gracefully as it is the case with some far lesser-known 70s jazz-rock guitar wizards. Just my opinion, of course.
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 06:03
| ^If you read the rest of my post you'll see that I agree. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 06:08
I read it and I disagree that the Mahavishnu Orchestra was "like the early 70's jazz-rockfusion version of Dream Theater". I do not think that DT were / are overrated. If we talk about that overvaluation of John McLaughlin by the audience and rock journalists in 70s, for a comparison would be better to choose Eric Clapton. Although Clapton was quite a different genre, they both had a "god" status.
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 08:08
Altough I think they are, that wasn't my main point. Kids/noobs (as seen here on PA) still outgrow DT once they dig deeper.
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Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 09:53
I thought the same thing about KC for years after first hearing Red and Starless. Too much effort to process could be an argument for anyone not into prog in general? |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 11:35
In the light of this topic, I decided to check them out. I must say, quite spectacular. I love the bass lines especially from Visions Of The Emerald Beyond. Me also being a drum enthusiast, I love Walden's snare rolls and his overall rhythm. I would highly recommend them.  ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 12:33
Birds of Fire had "Thousand Island Park" and "Hope", just to start. I have no idea where you're coming from.
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Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 12:53
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I do agree that they rather cram a lot of sounds into their songs for complexity, but I do know that there are other tracks like 'Thousand Island Park' and 'Hope', as said before. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 13:46
The real problem with some progressive music has to do with its abstruseness and prolixity, not complexity (as in "verbosity ≠ eloquence").
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Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 16:04
| I'd say Birds of Fire is prog. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 16:38
I agree. After Birds of Fire, their music was started to suffer from John McLaughlin's excessive try to connect it with the spiritual things of the Sri Chimnoy's cult to which he belonged (imo).
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 23:30
I agree. Also, they were nearly entirely instrumental. The amazing "Visions of the Emerald Beyond" featuring Jean Luc Ponty wandered off into symphonic territory, with choir vocals! This is great stuff, vocals come in at 1:40 Interestingly, Jon Anderson is now teamed up with Jean Luc Ponty in the Anderson-Ponty Band! The first cuts are very interesting, sort of a blend of traditional Jon Anderson with some jazz-rock composition! |
Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 23:45
Anyone who can express better the way I hear (and listen to) them is no less than welcome. I'd consider Mahavishnu slightly closer to jazz, despite proggish moments, and Crimson's overall energies closer to rock, in spite of KC's flirting often with jazz. When I say "horizontal" I mean light, quick, line-oriented music (of fill-in on drums), and vertical I'd say chord-oriented, slow, heavy. If that doesn't feel right I'll stick with Gerinsky's comment, and try to post better messages next time... ------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 01:22
| Steely Dan's Aja is also a jazz-rock, but it's a gloriously LP as much as the anything great by the symph bands that are mentioned in OP. Because Aja is the vocal jazz-rock LP with ingeniously composed songs that are radio-friendly and yet meet the highest level of the genre. |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 01:30
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I like that Mahavishnu records all sounded and felt live. Yes, there are occasional overdubs, but there is no doubt that most of it went down live. I don't feel that energy of live interplay in much modern prog for instance. DT sounds like a great studio offering all synced up nicely with click tracks and endless digital editing. Today's standard for high production sounds completely sterilized when compared to a listen to Mahavishnu. They were a great live band that delivered. Mahavishu doesn't come across to me as showboating. I think what they were doing was creating a high energy interplay for the listener, that worked as a texture more than a "look at me" vibe. It sounds musical. There are gorgeous passages of slower music then contrasting with fast then frenetic. They were going for full spectrum. I don't the the jazz thing either. I don't hear anything that sounds like traditional jazz music. The band is driven by Cobham who has jazz chops for speed, but plays with rock energy completely. I personally prefer the later version with Ponty and Narada Walden on drum kit. It's much more refined and anyone here who hasn't checked them out yet should listen to "Visions of the Emerald Beyond" first, then Apocalypse, and if you like those albums, then go back to Birds of Fire and Inner Mounting Flame. Check out "Devotion"If you like the first two, (Birds, and Inner Mounting) there is another great album called "My Goals Beyond"where McLaughlin did two solo albums that set the groundwork sound for Mahavishnu. If you get into "Visions of the Emerald Beyond" then make sure to check out Jeff Beck's "Wired" where he basically took Jan Hammer and Narada Walden from Mahavishu for his own. It's a similar style but with Jeff Beck on guitar instead of John McLaughlin. Beck followed with his classic "Blow by Blow". That was the pinnacle of his career in my opinion. |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 01:39
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^ Probably the biggest thing the band took from their jazz background was a semi-improvisational nature that resists overdubs, which musicians and fans of the genre particularly loathed - many jazz fans went nuclear when Miles did some overdubbing on Bitches Brew, for further example. Mainly because of McLaughlin, they ended up favouring rock elements over jazz elements, in spite of their backgrounds. Must have something to do with McLaughlin honing his skills with bands like The Graham Bond Organisation before Tony Williams found him.
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 01:45
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 02:46
John McLaughlin's solo album simply called http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2yPy73ejEs" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2yPy73ejEs" rel="nofollow - is way better than all the Mahavisnu Orchestra's post-Birds of Fire 'ultra-spiritual' albums that sounds today to me like a 'classic' World Fusion stuff, not as jazz-rock as well. Sadly enough, Electric Guitarist was released in the middle of New Wave mass-hysteria and that great album was (and sadly still to be) underrated as much as the Mahavishnu Orchestra's albums from their 'hyper-spiritual' and pretty new-agey phase that were overrated at the time they were recorded & released. Just my opinion, of course.  |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 09:49
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There is an honesty in the feel of the recordings of Mahavishnu that I don't hear from Weather Report or Return to Forever, Brand X etc. The typical jazz fusion stuff started trying to fuse that loose improv style with Steely Dan production values. It all sounds a bit sterile and over produced. I suspect that was one of the reasons Punk Rock took off. People got tired of perfectly produced albums that not only came across as pretentious but for all intent and purpose were pretentious. A lot of the prog went down that wormhole to, and that continues to this day. I would love to hear a quality new prog band just get back to basics and lay down their recording live with some of that passion and feel that Mahavishnu did so well. There is something about that era and the limitations that were just part of that era kept things sounding more honest and natural. I like the early Pink Floyd stuff for that reason also. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 12:01
I agree. Btw, I love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHp2KrgUW7g" rel="nofollow - Vital Transformation from Inner Worlds the album. I think that this is one of few The Mahavisnu Orchestra's "straight in the face" jazz-rock tracks that could be comparable to Return to Forever's amazing & timeless http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7CWdbkKHIs" rel="nofollow -
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 12:06
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Well....I don't think they lasted long enough (consistent..) in a trad sense to become one of the prog greats and it's has been pointed out they were fusion more than prog, but the first 2 albums are a must for any collector of fusion/prog . There are tracks on those that are as good as anything the so-called prog greats did. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: petewhit
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 13:12
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Mahavishnu is fusion not prog rock. In my opinion The Inner Mounting Flame and Birds of Fire were the best and it went down from there. Some bands are destined for a short lifespan, especially a band with the intensity of the Mahavishnu Orchestra. |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 16:43
I agree. There's always some point where the band flames out from way too much extreme savageness that they play. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 19:49
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Digging through my J/R/F albums (I wasn't sure from memory what I had) I came up with --- Inner Worlds Between Nothingness & Eternity - live John McLaughlin His Acoustic Guitar - My Goal's Beyond |
Posted By: Jdenkevitz
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 21:08
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I love apocalypse. Call it prog or fusion. It was an extremely brave album. It fails in certain sections, but in others parts it reaches a 'fusion' of instrumentation that has rarely been accomplished elsewhere. Some really haunting melodies. |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 21:49
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--My Goal's Beyond-- I enjoyed side one with only John McLaughlin playing various acoustic guitar tracks. Side two was acoustic guitar with the rest of the band and consisted of two long cuts. As mentioned by others here some of the other musicians were not always "comfortable" to listen to.
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Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 23:07
Fusion? Fusion of what? Jazz and rock? Where is the Jazz? Please explain. The drums are not jazz, the bass is not jazz, the guitar is not jazz, keyboards? Maybe slightly. Violin? I don't hear anything along the lines of traditional jazz. Mahavishnu sounds as prog rock as anything I can imagine. Isn't prog rock a fusion of things also? Rock and Classical, Jazz, Folk, Psychedelic, New Age, Electronica. If there is any genre of music that should be labeled fusion it is prog rock. |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 00:34
| ^ That violin is more jazz then you think. Compare Jerry Goodman's violin with that of Jean-Luc Ponty - the violinist on Apocalypse and Visions, in fact, but see also Enigmatic Ocean - and contrast with that of David Cross. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 01:02
 In fact, there were a lot of bands who were released their magnificent instrumental tracks that are jazz-rock / fusion, and though there is actually more rock than jazz, they still remain in a frame of jazz-rock / fusion genre. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 02:03
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Instrumental, think that is basicaly the answer. Very Very few instrumental albums will hit a broad span of listeners.
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 03:02
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Some of my favorite jazz-rock / fusion instrumental albums. Scope - self titled Scope - Scope II Isotope - self titled Isotope - Illusion Bonfire - self titled Flying Island - Another Kind Of Space Energy - self titled David Sancious - Transformation Transit Express - Priglacit Coryell & Catherine - Twin-house (acoustic) Colosseum II - Electric Savage (w/Gary Moore)
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 12:08
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Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 01:43
So Camel's Snow Goose should be considered Jazz fusion? |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 01:49
Very insightful post. Thanks for taking the time to digest it. I feel like those who write off Mahavishnu as not relevant to prog are making a mistake... or not doing their homework. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 02:36
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Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 10:29
In both KC and MO we find distorted guitar + violin and odd rythmics, but the very patterns that compose their lines are far from being the same. I doubt that Fripp would borrow anything from MacLaughlin. http://disciplineglobalmobile.com/diaries.htm?entry=899" rel="nofollow - Here's why I doubt it the more... ------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 10:48
With the hindsight of time we have come to put a lot of music under the big umbrella of Prog, especially in PA, but saying that "Jazz-Rock is a subgenre of Prog in general" is a dangerous statement prone to creating confusion, as it gives the idea that JR/F is like some "child" or "ramification" of "the big Prog daddy". I don't think they saw it like that when it happened, I don't think Mike Oldfield was thinking that he was making anything remotely similar to MO at the time he wrote TB. Everybody was doing his own thing, it is only now that we can see the similarities in philosophy.
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 10:59
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 11:33
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Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 11:39
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What I often do is pick an artist and listen to their entire catalog from 1rst album to last. It's really fascinating to do this. It's not something that you could do back in the era the albums were created. KC had a very interesting development from one album to the next with a lot of surprises along the way. Same with Mahavishnu. |
Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 12:03
Haha ! Let's say that, at the hearing of MO's fine playing, Fripp might have felt challenged... One could compare LTIA II and Fallen Angel to Hope, but no real evidence... As for Thousand Island Park, there's nothing from that MO piece that would be really new to earlier Crimson, or by Giles, Giles & Fripp with its "Suite No. 1" JML tends to play lighter and faster but less "thought up" than Fripp in LTIA I and Fracture's Moto Perpetuo. Fripp's overall playing's more experimental. ------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 12:21
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Which is the main reason why I would like to see the rules cleaned up and updated now that we have 50 years worth of music to go with. Sadly, we do not have the intelect to be able to put it all together and come up with something solid that makes sense, and I do not believe that enough folks that like the top ten in progressive music (at least PA), are folks that have a solid appreciation for real music all over the world, and you should have at least a sizeable portion of that. GuruGuru never had keyboards either, and neither did Incredible String Band, and they were far more progressive in their area than anyone here is willing or capable of listening to it. Because it ain't prog and it ain't listed on PA's top list! So, not seeing Mahavishnu, is not a surprise ... in fact it should be expected. The folks here, with their list, have locked themselves up to 3 groups and the rest is crap! WTF are you even asking, right? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 18:23
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Cobham's playing is just incredible if you have any knowledge about the art of playing drum kit. It's not just chops but also the way he feels his way into the next passage so seamlessly even though one can feel he may not know exactly where things are going. The feel of improv is kept alive in spite of some obvious overdubs and multi tracking. There is something to be said for recordings being made before the technology got so involved. |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 18:32
| ^ Listen to Spectrum yet, Skull? |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 18:33
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I don't bother with Fusion these days. Prog is way better. Just click below and you will agree ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 20:35
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^ Eh, prog's had better. Like a lot of fusion albums. Check out Birds of Fire again.
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Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 22:26
Of course, it's a great album. I have a great vinyl copy. He took some of those chops into funk music on some of his solo albums. Huge fan for sure. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 14 2015 at 00:42
Eh? Great track. Mahavishnu, Floyd or Crimson couldn't produce these kind of melodies ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 14 2015 at 01:04
Yea I forgot to point out that "under prog umbrella" applies to those bands who are in Prog Archives only. As you know, JR / Fusion team is not added to the database the bands that are not progressive fusion as both these 70s legends and some great new bands and solo artists who play progressive fusion aswell as for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePeVlhlVvzI" rel="nofollow - Confusion from Greece and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywlWkkNl19U" rel="nofollow - Plini from Australia. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 14 2015 at 08:28
I think the most plausible answer has been given by those who have put it down to the lack of vocals. Even with KC, the more instrument-based albums like LTIA are not what made them so renowned. Rather, it's the, yes, symphonic ITCOTCK with Lake's standout vocals. KC, Yes, ELP, Genesis, PF, JT all have standout vocals in at least some of their albums, whether or not in a good way. Let me further modify that. Distinct vocals AND lyrics in English *cue micky's favourite RPI rant*  . I think Magma has a very formidable legacy too and their musicianship is outstanding. But singing in an imaginary language just won't do when it comes to popularity. What moshkito calls the top 10 mentality. But it can't be helped, really, because rock music essentially is a predominantly American and British based genre with, duh, English lyrics. Sure there are amazing bands from other countries singing in their native language but with most of it being English, most of the fans are going to be conversant in English at the very least, even if it is not their first language. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 14 2015 at 10:25
Exactly. I would just like to add that Britain had really great singers in the Progressive rock such as Greg Lake, Peter Gabriel, Jon Anderson to name of few, and also in Rock genre there were so many of magnificent singers from Britain; sometimes I'm inclined to think that the grandeur of 70s British rock in general is based primarily on great British singers. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 14 2015 at 10:40
| That's a different discussion altogether but it was kind of covered in an earlier thread where Dean participated. Possibly the acceptance of varied folk/native styles of singing into British rock/pop gave the singers in that period a very unique character. |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 14 2015 at 10:51
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I've been listening to my MO albums since I started following this thread. I have to say that I prefer a more melodic and flowing sound like Scope, Bonfire, Isotope, Energy or Flying Island. I don't mind a little bit of free form or spacing out but I do prefer continuity. To my ears Stomu Yamashta is borderline in this regard. I like violin when it blends in with the overall sound of the music. Stomu albums regularly feature violin and Flying Island has it on every track. I definitely like Jean-Luc Ponty and also Darryl Way's Wolf. Hardly any of my J/R/F albums feature vocals and that's fine with me.
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Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 02:06
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I know for many they will view MVO as a chops band with endless showboating etc... but I don't believe that was really the intention with them. It feels more like the frantic intensity that predominates most of the music works more like a ten finger deep tissue massage. I find the music relaxes me. It doesn't agitate me at all. The compositions are very detailed and well thought out. More complex than traditional jazz, and this lands it square in the prog genre for me. Using odd meters as much as they do, that is a conscious intent. There is a very complex structure that resembles classical music more than jazz that permeates the underlaying form of Mahavishnu music. Most traditional jazz works around 3 and 4 chord progressions that then are soloed over by the lead instruments. Mahavishnu is much more structured if you listen closely. It's very experimental music and the true spirit of progressive experimentation is everywhere. |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 04:07
| IMO, they're better than a lot of the prog giants, but a better question is why isn't Soft Machine considered one of the prog giants. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 04:30
The most of jazz-rock / fusion is instrumental stuff, but there are also some fantastic jazz-rock / fusion tunes that featured vocals, in various stlyles of the sub-genre; for example Chick Corea's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5VyNKvuxqI" rel="nofollow - Dear Alice , Return To Forever's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyqyROM6Shw" rel="nofollow - What Games Shall We Play Today , Allan Holdsworth's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW5wcU3ohDs" rel="nofollow - Road Games , Bill Brufford's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaoQPmTF7zk" rel="nofollow - Adios a la Pasada (Goodbye to the Past) , Nick Mason's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JADPCcpUbu0" rel="nofollow - I'm A Mineralist , Steely Dan's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG2seugAgnU" rel="nofollow - Aja etc, etc. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 06:44
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Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 06:51
...Like a ten fingers deep tissue massage !! After their first recordings players would listen to their own music before coming onstage so they feel relaxed in order to deliver their lines....Why not after all !! This is my suggestion for a rephrased debate: "Is massage music predominated by frantic intensity closer to jazz fusion, or prog rock "...
------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 07:29
Camel's great work to me is "The Snow Goose". All instrumental, and considered Prog and not fusion. A lot of KC stuff from the same era was instrumental just like Mahavishnu. KC was also doing lots of improv sounding stuff across structure odd metering. To me, the complexity of the odd metering that MHV put together is even a bit more sophisticated that KC, and certainly rocks harder in general. If the jazz moniker is aimed at too much jazz style showboating.. then didn't ELP also fit that description? Lot's of ELP showboating. |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 10:01
You are correct. Some of my JRF albums feature vocals even if only on one or two songs. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 10:16
You're no progger if you're dissin this track. ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 11:39
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^ And Angus is no true Scotsman because he's dissin' Scotch.
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Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 12:20
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Skullhead mentioned The Snow Goose which is a great album. There is a Camel poll going on now and "Goose" is in third place out of fourteen albums.
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Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 12:49
sorry, it was a mistype.
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Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 15:00
It's hard for me sometimes to listen to them, mostly due to their volcanic intensity, but I do like them under certain moods.  ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 15:41
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I don't give a rat's ass where they rank around here. For me Apocalypse is one of my top ten prog albums and I hate ranking albums, ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Skullhead
Date Posted: January 17 2015 at 20:52
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When I think of Jazz fusion, I think of some of the Miles albums from the 70's or Stan Getz or Maynard F. doing rockish jazz stuff. Some of it is really good. Mahavishu seems so much more rock or prog rock than that stuff. Fripp was very fast and frenetic at times, but both KC and Mahavishu had deep structure under all the intense playing. |
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: December 03 2015 at 10:04
| Much like early Genesis I am just now discovering Mahavishnu and it blows me away. Birds of Fire is just amazing! |
Posted By: Rando
Date Posted: December 03 2015 at 18:16
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I have fond memories when I first bought Mahavishnu's "Inner Mounting Flame" back in '73 - Along with that album I also bought my first copy of Genesis "Selling England By The Pound." The latter in the Import section- Two masterpieces each with its own virtuoso guitarist! John McLaughlin & Steve Hackett- ------------- - Music is Life, that's why our hearts have beats - |
Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: December 03 2015 at 19:27
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I like them but I prefer Weather Report and Dixie Dregs.. ------------- I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 03 2015 at 22:21
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MO were great....period. No fusion band around then or later played with the balls out intensity they did. Superb musicians....everyone a virtuoso and that was part of the problem....too many egos clashing in the band. Apparently Goodman and Laird would go at each other all the time. Their first 2 are the best but even the later ones had fine playing though they never achieved that level of intensity. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Rando
Date Posted: December 04 2015 at 08:14
- True. It's inevitable that such an incredible band would "out-ego" each other and maybe even outplayed themselves on the first 2 albums-But they definitely made their mark and statement with jazz or fusion, although more in a rock context. Later on down the road makes me think of Return To Forever's fusion masterpiece "Romantic Warrior" -  ------------- - Music is Life, that's why our hearts have beats - |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 04 2015 at 15:38
Romantic Warrior is a great album.....though I always liked Hymn of The 7th Galaxy better. Prolly 'cause I used to get 'stoned' to that one before I heard Warrior. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: December 09 2015 at 08:55
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Mahavishnu is exhausting.....the sheer speed and power of the music is impressive, but sitting thru even one side of the first album is a full body experience.....you need a chaser like the first Weather Report album to soothe your frazzled nerves after the all out sonic assault of MO. I've been a McLaughlin fan all my life and have a shelf full of his music, but the first two MO albums are the least played among them.....you really have to be in the mood and that mood doesn't pop up very often. I much prefer Extrapolation, Devotion and My Goal's Beyond from that same time frame.....more melodic, more precise in technique, more soulful, more listenable. Mahavishnu will always have a place in my collection, but their records will spend less time on my turntable.
------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |