What is "prog" about Tool and similar bands?
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Topic: What is "prog" about Tool and similar bands?
Posted By: WeepingElf
Subject: What is "prog" about Tool and similar bands?
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 14:16
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There is something I just don't get. This is the reason why certain bands, of whom Tool is the best-known, are classified as "progressive rock" or "progressive metal". I mean, this music has fairly little in common with progressive rock: long pieces, odd time signatures, and there the similarity ends. I had a theory that they were called "progressive" because their music was to some degree similar, in its repetitive structure becoming denser to the end of the piece, to what is called "progressive" in electronic dance music circles, but that doesn't really seem to cut it. So what is going on here - is it just track length and time signature why this music is called "prog"? ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Replies:
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 14:24
To me, there's just a little prog, but you know the old debate about what is prog is not going to find his resolution soon... ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
WeepingElf wrote:Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 14:49
First of all, you need to define "other bands". Putting all bands sounding similar to Tool (is that what you mean?) is rather unfair. There are bands similar to Tool which are prog, others that are not; most are not and Tool are rather an exception in the alternative rock/metal arena - perhaps they were just that at their beginnings but with Aenima onwards they evolved their sound remarkably. Which albums of Tool have you listened to? The main album that credited them with the tag "progressive" was Lateralus, which, indeed as you describe, includes long pieces, odd time signatures etc etc. This is a good start, but of course not definitive for prog rock as you mention. In this album, in my opinion, "prog" is integrated into the music, both in the structure of the song, the constant changes in rhythm and feeling, the concept. For me Lateralus sounds at times like the modern alternative version of Rush (although it might just be me, but listen to the middle section of Schism). Influence-wise they have quoted The Melvins and King Crimson (not very obvious in their music). |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 15:09
Here we go again ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 15:12
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What is Tool missing that doesn't qualify them to be considered prog? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 15:22
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Mellotron you silly bugger! ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 15:32
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Oh I'm never silly about prog. Prog is Serious Business. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 15:35
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Oh yeah. Since I started frequenting PA I've been taking karate classes and reading long books.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 15:41
It might be a daft question admittedly but can I ask whether you actually like Tool? Its very tempting to fall into the trap of dismissing the 'prog credentials' of a band just because we don't appreciate the music. Tool are not an easy listen admittedly but I don't doubt for one second that they belong here.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 15:49
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^I was about to post something similar before but didn't. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:06
Sorry David, I forgot I was not supposed to answer  It was simply very tempting  |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:08
Nahh don't worry Thanos. It certainly wasn't you my post was pointed at. Anyways, you've been part of the metal team since Nam now, so I understand why you wish to shed some light on a subject like this. I feel similarly when people start talking about PE  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:17
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Then again I sorta understand the OP from a certain viewpoint (because most of the modern stuff has next to nothing in common with the classic bands), and it's the same goddamn problem we run into almost on a weekly basis, although this week it's happened in 3 (now 4) different threads. 'How difficult for the youngins/oldies to get into new/old prog?' as well as the 'Is it odd that prog rock is almost as old as rock headscratcher? (let's face it: the thread was doomed to begin with). Everything boils down to the ongoing discussion of the distinction between Prog and progressive music.....and until Max decides which way the wind blows, we're destined to deal with these sort of threads. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:43
nah. M@x has nothing to do with it.. what does he do .. change a banner. People have the tendency to see less in the bands they don't like. M@X whipping out his magic wand and making this progressive archives isn't going to make those who don't like Tool.. or metal in general.. suddenly see the light in questions exactly like this. the nail was hit squarely on the head... it has everything to do with a dislike manifested into a notion that only 'good' bands can be included here, and if a person doesn't like them.. they are not worthy of being here. I'm not a fan at ALL of the group, but years ago I was encouraged by some friends to explore them, I didn't like it.. but I'd be out of my f**king mind to deny they should be here. Anyone who fails themselves to see it...is not exercizing his god given right to use his f**king brain instead of just running their mouths. hah. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:45
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I posted a question last year asking what PA members thought of Tool, I.E. if they liked or disliked them. It never occurred to me to question if the band's music was progressive as I simply took to be. This is due to their later album output which showcases extended songs with numerous time signature changes and other features that are generally indentified as progressive. What is your definition of Progressive Rock would be a better question.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:55
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As I have said elsewhere, when I review I often use the term "non-mainstream music" rather than progressive (let alone prog) to emphasize how those bands or artists - while they may not sound like their Seventies counterparts - are purveyors of music that does not aim to be a mere commodity. That being said, of course Tool are not "prog". Besides the extended running time of their songs, the time signature changes, and the esoteric subject matter, they do not sound like any bands from the Seventies - which is the necessary condition to be called "prog". Most of the truly interesting modern bands (such as Knifeworld or MoeTar, to name but two) are forging their own path, and very few (if any) echoes of classic prog can be found in their music. Do they deserve a spot here? If we consider prog as a genre with a number of more or less fixed stylistic features, they do not. If we are smart and care to see progressive music grow and prosper, of course they do. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:57
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^ god you are so hot... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:57
That is part of it Micky, but would you call most of the bands found in post rock, avant, Kraut, PE or folk Prog bands? I'd call them progressive sure but prog? Nope, but then again that's just me. If Max changed the banner to Progressive Music Archives we wouldn't have a need for these discussions - or not as many Alright I'm done now. I am going on hiatus in regards to this subject. It all ends in different posters posting various ways of explaining what prog is to them or similarly what prog isn't. We're never going to find a common ground for all. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 17:09
you are pretty hot yourself btw. purple did look good on you. yes.. but so many do not distinguish between prog and progressive..they are used interchangeably. I think it is wrong to do so, but who is to say I am right? It is all up to the individual listener. Which brings us back to the subject at hand. The site is not a prog rock site IMO, and it appears that many do not think so, however honestly David. How many really care about that. My point, making this site progressive music archives will not stop those who dislike groups or styles of music from doubting they belong on the site no matter what we call it. Some take an almost mystical .. better yet ..f**king EVANGELICAL...view of prog.. as if it is by its very nature BETTER than other forms of music and to have bands that are borderline.. or worse.. bands that one doesn't feel belong.. is some kind of goddamned crime again music and all that is right and good in the world. As I see it.. it is a generally inclusive site, it could be a lot more.. but damnit man it could be a LOT worse. I don't think we will ever find common ground.. as I've posted before.. the music, its fans, and the whole remnants of the scene itself have fragmented to the point where (outside of 70's prog rock for the vast majority of the members) there is little common ground to ever be found. Opinion will forever vary on the modern bands. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 18:04
Interesting reading in this thread - well done lads  .Now, if I may relate my experience with this band : I'd heard through the grapevine of this band, Tool, and as an observation, noticed most fans were pimply little skater dudes and chemically altered metalheads. I thought with a name like 'Tool', and these nutters advocating them, they must be pus..... Anyway, my good mate Michael (Aussie Byrd Brother, to most folks here) had the CD of Lateralus in his car and I requested he play me some.......not sure which tracks he played, but I really was impressed and stated loudly " f**k me ! These guys are Prog " (or words to that effect). Took me a while to score me a nice vinyl version of the album but I enjoy it heaps every time I spin it. And I did feel a smidge of Crimso in their music....... |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 18:26
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I could argue that Tool is not prog, and no I don't like them. I am however VERY objective when it comes to assessment. Because so many people bug me about it I have gone back to Tool time and time again. Still I don't "get" it, and that is why I won't argue against them. My lack of understanding removes any credibility my opinion may have. They are considered one of the original prog-metal bands and that decision was made by people much more qualified than I on the subject. Rock on Tool fans!! ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 18:33
| Does Tool sing about elves and gnomes? No. So they aren't prog. Well wait......they have cool album covers so maybe they are a little proggy. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 19:01
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Cos they're proggy. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 19:39
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: January 07 2015 at 19:50
Ow, My head hurts.  What if we don't consider prog a genre?  ------------- Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here . |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 01:52
 Still havent got any news from the starter of this, does he love TOOL, but hate the fact that they are consideret Prog, because they are not. Or just that he dislikes TOOL, and the question then becomes silly. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 02:41
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He's been offline since posting his question, some people have lives outside the net ;) ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 03:39
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The music. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 05:59
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Some prog connoisseurs are really gripped by terrible histeria these days, that they are roaring now that the progressive / experimental metal sub-genre ("...and similar bands?" ) ought to be ejected out of prog. It's a real grotesque. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6hYe6FbA60" rel="nofollow - This is a PROG about Tool, for example.
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Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 06:58
Yep, I remember hearing something about this .. real life with rotary phones, paper (!) books, typewriters, pendulum clocks and music on dinner plate-size pieces of plastic.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 08:34
 ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 09:20
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OK, I shall answer some of your questions. You may have guessed it: I don't like Tool. Or rather, I don't like what I have heard yet of Tool. I haven't listened to everything they have put out. Just five or six songs from various albums. But that is not the reason why I don't consider them prog. There is prog that I don't like much, such as most of Steven Wilson's stuff. Sure, there is not much prog I don't like, but there is, and there is of course plenty of non-prog I like. Progressive rock, to me, refers to a particular current within rock music that started with bands such as The Moody Blues, Procol Harum and later Yes, King Crimson and Pink Floyd in late-60s England, and spread to other countries from there. And I feel that Tool is, though in some points influenced by it, not part of that current. Nor are those bands who make similar music. The reason why I don't consider Tool prog is that much of what characterizes and constitutes prog is IMHO missing, most importantly the changeful dramaturgy and, especially relevant, the spirit of classical progressive rock. Granted, this spirit has attenuated in later prog, but usually, it is still there. There is nothing of it in Tool. So, what is this "spirit"? It is the notion that progressive rock is progressive in three ways: 1. It is musically progressive in breaking out of the "radio single" mold, towards sophisticated musical and lyrical structure. 2. It is technologically progressive in embracing new music technologies, such as synthesizers and recording procedures. 3. It is socially progressive in taking a critical but non-cynical stance on bourgeois society, championing change to a freer and more equitable society, and being sensitive to social, environmental and related issues. Sure, these three ways of being progressive are not equally strong in all progressive rock (especially the last of the three has attenuated considerably), but to some degree, they are there. Tool certainly do very much their own thing. My first encounter with them was in the early 90s in a TV music magazine, when they made what I remember as some sort of industrial metal. They have changed considerably since then. I also don't deny that they are influenced by progressive rock. But they are perhaps as much progressive rock as English is a Romance language. ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 09:23
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I don't know how old you are as that would be a help to me, as I'm in my sixties, and have seen Progressive Rock evolve from it's purely classical base to include influences once thought of a crude and 'outside' of what should belong in Progressive Rock such as Technical Death Metal and the like, which is progressive in it's own way. This newer type of progressive music doesn't necessary conform to the 'Classic' definition of Progressive Rock that began in the late sixties and flourished in radio and record sales in the seventies. Bands such as Yes, Genesis and the like. There is even an unwritten understanding that many of these 'outside' influenced groups are classified simply as the four letter word Prog, instead of Progressive Rock to help distinguish the older 'Classic' Progressive Rock from the newer. I hope I was of some help. (And that my statements are correct as I'm new to this sub genre world of newer Prog, also!)
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 10:26
| Tool is progressive! To be honest i didn't like them at first either. They grew on me after i just let go and enjoyed them for what they were instead of wanting them to be more progressive in some other ways. Yeah they can be repetitive but they use a repertoire of unusual time signatures including using hitherto (as far as i know) used timings like those based on the Fibonacci sequence:1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377 etc. Tool's progressiveness may be subtler than more in your face bands because they dress in an alternative rock sound but if you really dig into the compositions you can not deny the progressive qualities embedded within. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 10:38
| Also why are you going off on a tangent when you have even listened to their albums? Its obvious what makes them progressive when you do your homework. The site has included them for a reason. Instead of trying to come up with arguments against why dont you just take the time to get to know the music first? |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 11:56
Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture isn't prog either, despite being quite long with various time signatures, and incorporating bells and cannon, as well as brass and woodwind. ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 12:06
Just because an album cover is cool doesn't mean the music is even remotely proggy. Hipgnosis famously designed the covers of such prog classics as Dark Side Of The Moon, Going For The One, and The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, among others. This doesn't mean that others albums with Hipgnosis covers are in any way progesque. Similarly, Roger Dean's artwork for Asia does not mean they are at all prog ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 13:45
We could also include Carl Orff in Zeuhl...seriously. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 14:00
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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 14:08
Actually its quite progressive but its not ROCK! This is a prog rock site and if it was created in a rock context i m sure it would certainly be here |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 14:28
Case in point:  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 14:56
^Perhaps Tool needs a Roger Dean cover sleeve.  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 16:35
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Well, I cannot decree that Tool "isn't progressive rock". One of my hobbies is linguistics, and that taught me that a word just means what it is used for. And if people call the kind of music bands like Tool make "progressive rock", then it is called "progressive rock". I now tend to say that the term "progressive rock" has two meanings, different and probably related. One in classic rock, and one in alternative rock. Hence, I distinguish between "progressive rock of the classic tradition" and "progressive rock of the alternative tradition". Things like that just happen. ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 17:52
No, its atmosphere could catch, for example, H.R. Giger (RIP) that he is still alive.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 18:11
dude... that was downright profound!!!! Here.. have some McClappies.  I'm no linguist... I still communicate by scratching my ass when I need love..and grunting when I am hungry... but that almost made sense even to me!! ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 19:25
With the advancement of these 'sub genres' came an emphasis on more technical playing coupled with more complex rhythmic structures in progressive rock such as the 'sub genres' of Math Rock and Technical Metal, which I feel is part of the makeup of Tool along with their assigned 'sub genre' of Post Rock. No one musical group can be devoid of musical influences or styles of other genres, so PA picks the most outstanding feature of the artist and assigns that artist to a specific sub genre. It's not an easy answer, but in life there's always more flavors than vanilla.
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 19:46
First of all, you guys who love so much to enumerate the early prog bands (like you up in your post) as an example of, say, "what is prog really", somehow always forget to mention the Mothers of Invention, who were actually recorded and released the first prog album ever, Freak Out! in 1966. Why this album you guys always forget, if you know that Freak Out! had a tremendous success with prog audiences?
A pure coincidence, or obliviousness? Well, It's actually too often to be coincidence and/or obliviousness. Imo, it's not the case. You're actually trying to defend the thesis that only Symphonic prog is PROG (with always adding of Pink Floyd who were a 100% Psychedelic rock band in '60s). That's deeply wrong and rather silly. Second, there never was one "spirit "of Progressive rock as same as there wasn't e.g. just one spirit of Surrealism. I'll try to explain what I mean. André Breton (February 19, 1896 - Paris, 28 September 1966) was a French poet and critic who was written Manifeste du surréalisme. André Breton, as a main theorist of Surrealism, was insisted on the original line, being disconnected with most of his former friends, e.g. Salvador Dali. Breton wasn't predicted that some artists will use academic realism as a technique for painting their surreal visions. And today Surrealism is widely known by such artists as Dali, not by Breton who had advocated, for example, uncontrolled writing & drawing on paper. Salvador Dali was broke away from the Breton's Surrealist movement in 1931. When Dali went in U.S. and began to work on his large-format hyper-realistic paintings, Breton coined his nickname Avida Dollars as an anagram of Salvador Dali just to denote the idea that Dali sold out. Anyway, for millions of people today, Salvador Dali is the greatest example of Surrealism. But those real fans of Surrealism and who want to really explore and to delve deeper into the genre, they can not ignore André Breton and his Manifeste du surréalisme and to say "f*ck Breton's boring book, only Dali is Surrealism". Or vica versa. It's similar with prog which even don't have something like "Manifeste du prog"; you just need to learn that prog was / is coming from many directions, and that is great thing actually, because it's gonna be pretty boring and very sad that the great genre as prog lives trapped in a cage like a parrot who stubbornly mimics only EL&P, Yes and Genesis, again and again. Last but not least, all of you who advocate such a thesis that only Symphonic Prog (and early Pink Floyd, lol) is Prog, you must not forget the very hard work of PA teams who are, btw, very strictly when it comes to adding bands in the PA database; you can trust me ;) |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 20:27
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^Wow!The best thing I've ever read from Svetonio! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 20:30
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At this moment I am loading up some Tool to listen to tomorrow. It's been a while since I listened to them. My last memory (maybe 2 years ago is when I last tried them) is that they sounded kind of cool but were pretty exhausting. It's an uphill climb because I'm not a natural fan of metal - I only started liking metal when I learned it had become weird and experimental (Sunn 0))), Boris, Ulver, etc), so I don't get the same "thrills" that most people do. If Tool is "weird enough" (and maybe they are), I might just have a chance. One track always comes back to mind - the weird song "Disgustipated" from the Undertow album - that song scared me a bit but it showed me that Tool can be pretty weird when they want to. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: January 08 2015 at 20:34
I happen to love that album, but yeah, it's not prog. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 02:37
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I think Undertow is a somewhat overlooked Tool album Steve. It's not as weird as what came after but it is on the other hand not as exhaustive. The melodies as well as the snarly post-punk feel I get from the guitar make this into one of my faves from them. Then again, it was the first album I got of theirs too, so that might be why I have a soft spot for it. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 02:40
That was a wonder full post !!
I just like to add, that King Crimson, who is videly accepted as a Prog flagship, even in the 70's opened the doors to a much wider range of prog genres, including experiments with much more that just symp. prog. ; and you could say prog metal, is also building on (or adding too) albums of the Crimso mid 70's.
This is in MHO very much the case when it comes to Tool. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 02:55
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That was a good post, but Freak Out! was never a prog album. Sorry Svet. It was an experimental blues rock album with some avantguarde tendencies thrown in for good measure.....but prog? Definitely no. Forward thinking and one of the most innovative releases of 1966? You betcha! ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:14
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We only in it for the.... would be the better example, as it is closer related to prog, but then again we are back to the what is prog versus what is proto. Hardly interesting, as it will allways be such a thin line, and is mainly up to what elements of prog you find to be most important.
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:16
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I agree. Letz be done with all this silliness and get back to the music eh? I'm definitely done with this thread (he says for the second time)! ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:24
Aha... Well, when do you think that Zappa was deserved to be placed in the progressive rock? with which album? Zappa is not prog, is that what you want to say?
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:29
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No I didn't say that. The first Genesis album was similarly not the one that cemented them as a prog rock group either. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:34
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But let's not make this into a Zappa thread. We've got plenty of those already. Like I said earlier, this all boils down to one's definition of progressive music versus prog, which seems to be the neverending discussion on PA....of which I am getting pretty tired of tbh. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 03:50
Guldbamsen, I didn't ask you about Genesis  Let's say that a newbie who just went into prog and asks the Admin of Prog Archives Forum, "please just tell me which Zappa's album is his first prog album, because I can see that Zappa is in Prog Archives, in RIO / Avant Prog section?", what will be your answer?
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 04:10
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It doesn't matter Svet. I don't have anything to say in that department. I'm not on the ZART team.....but if you really want to know, I'd say Hot Rats was his first true prog album (at least all the way through. There were hints of it earlier on but they crystallized on that album). Again this is just my opinion. Just because I am an admin doesn't mean that I have any control in these matters. I merely state my opinion like everyone else here😊 ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 04:18
Thank you.
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 04:38
Zappa was there long before I joined the team so I don't know, but I think the reason for him in Avant is the same of Captain Beefheart. If Avant didn't exist we could invent and name a genre specific for them. Do you see any other subgenre they could fit in? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 05:14
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For the record, when I was still an active Collab, we tried to move Zappa to Eclectic, but the suggestion was voted down for a number of reasons I don't remember now. |
Posted By: PhideauxFan
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 06:25
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Maybe, Tool is a "modern" progressive band, that can't be understood by dusty progsters who have the old same sounds of mellotron and mini-moog in their head. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 06:41
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 07:11
One thing is certain: Zappa made the/his very first Canterbury-tune in 1967. Man what a total gem it is: I think the best way for weepingelf to understand why Tool are on PA is to check out their discography backwards. Not necessarily because 10000 Days is their best (most fans would would say Lateralus is) but I think its probably the easiest album to digest if for someone largely unfamiliar with progressive-metal or progrock beyond the classic era. It reminds me quite a bit of 90/00's King Crimson (a period of which I'm no fan of) or is the other way around? Besides most of the time its less metal than Porcupine Tree's Tool-apeing tunes on Deadwing.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 08:27
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 08:29
Regardless, it's still the best thing I've read by Svetonio.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:21
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Btw, what are the ZART and PSIKE teams? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:29
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ZART = Zeuhl, Avant, RIO Team PSIKE = Psych, Space, Indo-Raga, Krautrock, Electronic. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:31
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Thanks Ian, It was R in RIO and I in Indo Raga that threw me! ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:32
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I personally think we should be TZAR or RATZ as I prefer the acronyms ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:38
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I like the TZAR one, but that may confuse people into thinking it's the Russian team. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:43
^Um,  is there a Russian team? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:49
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Though having Hot Rats in the RATZ sub-genre is appropriate. ------------- Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here . |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:52
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Yes it consists of bearded bear hunters that in between shots of vodka evaluate music from the tundras of Siberia. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:53
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TRAZ for late King Crimson and TARZ(an) for Central African bands? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:54
| and drink reindeer piss |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 09:54
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^Sounds more like Norwegian Doom metal bands.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 10:01
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Alright, I think this thread has run it's course😊 We got the shred, as well as the "adult" version the shed, for chit chatting. I'll wait a bit seeing as the OP may want a final word in, or if any of you guys want to address the topic at hand - no not the Russian team but the prog virtues of Tool. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 10:04
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^As Sonia would say: " to the naughty corner for us."
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 10:07
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Well that goes for me too then I am just as bad at derailing threads. Anyway back to the topic people ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 10:10
Tool: I have tried once again to listen to Lateralus, and prog or not, I've got to say I don't think I will ever enjoy this style of music.  . I will say they are excellent at what they do, and they are prog.------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 10:14
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^They're not on the top of my hit parade either Steve, but at least you gave them a second chance. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 10:15
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 10:17
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^ Enough said. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: January 09 2015 at 10:25
Trust me, Undertow is and has never been an overlooked album. It put them on the map. It made a noticeable splash in 1993 and the videos for "Sober" and "Prison Sex" got plenty of airplay on the eMpTyVee. Virtually everyone I met liked Tool as a result of that album, and then went back and bought their debut EP Opiate. As far as weird goes, I think Undertow, AEnima and Lateralus are fairly consistent, the latter two are less straightforward but there's nothing as drastic as going from Drama to 90125. I confess I don't think the last album was too hot. Several really good songs, but overall a disappointment compared to the previous three albums. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: FragileKings
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 02:50
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I have only Aenima so I can't speak for other albums, but when I first starting discovering which bands I knew were considered prog, I thought I would see if Tool were on PA and they are. To me, one important factor for being prog is writing music that explores possibilities outside of the standard song format. That can mean longer track lengths, more complex compositions, very technical playing, or lots of imagination. On Aenima, Tool dispose of a lot of standard song format ideas. They simplify by repeating a bass theme while changing music intensity, they change tempo, ignore choruses, add spoken parts and sound effects, play with recording techniques and generally create songs and music that make the album more of a journey rather than just a collection of songs. That's my general impression, though I haven't listened to that album all the way through now for a few years. ------------- I used to be a fan of particular bands like Rush, Yes, and Deep Purple. Now I travel the Proglands, exploring a little bit of everything. I have become a Prog Voyager. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 03:11
I suppose that you've been skipping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6hYe6FbA60" rel="nofollow - this all the time. |
Posted By: FragileKings
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 03:30
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Ha, ha! Not skipping it all the time. But I listen to the tracks at the beginning more than the tracks at the end. Still, when I'm in the mood, I like this song! ------------- I used to be a fan of particular bands like Rush, Yes, and Deep Purple. Now I travel the Proglands, exploring a little bit of everything. I have become a Prog Voyager. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 04:41
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Great prog is about strong melody coming from jazz/classical influences combined with rock/folk. Tool have none of that so that makes them pretty sh*te ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 04:52
I know they hit it (somewhat) big with Undertow, which probably is why I noticed them in the first place, but most fans of the band these days have a tendency to overlook ir for the subsequent three albums. -Well at least the people I've met who're hugely into the band. Might be the other way around elsewhere, I can't say for sure. This was always my fave off it (maybe you'll like this one Steve?): ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:15
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Tools vocals are atrocious when he screams. Very much like foo fighter screams. Absolute tripe ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 05:23
Nah. Strong melodies in "Great prog" (i.e. 70s Symph, right? lol) comes mainly from its pop roots.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 07:34
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Last time I looked, this thread is not about whether Tool are good or bad - it's about whether they are prog or not. Personally, I have never managed to get into Tool, but I do not doubt for a second that they are prog. Many of the bands other PA members rave about bore me to tears, but I have never questioned their right to be labeled as prog. |
Posted By: Greg W
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 08:23
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Are they always prog? No. Then again neither is Genesis,Yes, ELP, or Jethro Tull, so I say yes indeed, they are progressive metal. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: January 10 2015 at 11:45
That would really surprise me. Imagine Caress of Steel being overlooked...nope! Tool is a band with only four full albums since 1993 (and the 4th is already a decade old). That's an average of an album every 5.5 years. Every Tool fan knows all their albums. They need to get off their arses (or Maynard needs to stop hiding in his groves) and wrap the new album. For a band whose players can cite Rush as an influence, you'd think they'd note how productive those "old" guys are. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Free like an Hydra
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 14:33
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They've always been one of my favourite bands, when not THE favourite one, but I've never seen them as a prog ensemble, in a 70s sense. More like alternative metal. If you consider calm-storm-building climaxes and non-traditional song structures as prog, then sure, they have that aspect in many songs. Anyway, a lot of the 70s prog rock dinosaurs, while in progs peak (first half of 70s), wrote many pop and rock songs.
For me it's kinda like what Gazpacho are for indie and alternative rock.
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Posted By: Kentucky_Hawkwindage
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 15:49
I don't like Tool song for song but what songs of theirs i like i really like! Stinkfist,Aenema,The Pot might be my favorite Tool tracks plus a few more.I shall avoid trying to explain the prog aspect though. ------------- "Nobody's Gonna Change My World That's Something To Unreal" Lyrics that i live my life by-from Black Sabbath's Technical Ecstasy's track You Won't Change Me |
Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: January 11 2015 at 16:10
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Don't believe any metal should also be considered prog but that's a music argument that was apparently lost long before I joined this site. -------------  Time always wins. |