Aren't they Punk?

I listened to their sample on their website:

http://www.neubauten.org/ - http://www.neubauten.org/

It's an interesting idea to label them Krautrock. You can PM philippe or BaldJean/BaldFriede for their opinion, they're really knowledgeable on obscure and experimental music, Krautrock in particular.

Publius wrote: I always did. But aren't Yes always referred to as the public as a rock band? Countless times I have seen 'Rock keyboardist Rick Wakeman'. Just because they are a different genre doesn't mean they aren't prog. Prog metal, prog rock, prog house, prog electronic, even prog death. this is just prog industrial.

I agree with your way of thinking, but it's not the way of this website. It boils down to a simple rule: If something is innovative, that doesn't mean that it's "prog".

Innovation is just one of many criteria ... see how prog is defined on this website:

http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp

BTW: While I think that there's something like "prog house", I'm sure most of the people in this forum would disagree. Prog started with rock, and most fans are reluctant to accept that Prog exists in other genres, too.

What's age got to do with it? I remember first hearing about the band more than fifteen years ago, and they played a sort of experimental industrial music (as opposed to ordinary industrial bands like Die Krupps).

hehe. Einsturzende are a topic of much debate in industrial/rivethead circles. Believe me I've been there. 'A bunch of crazy Germans banging on things? That's not industrial!' I have heard many a time. They might sound industrial, but you could argue that Coheed And Cambria sound emo. Doesn't make them not progressive.

I'm not saying they're typical prog rock, but they have very progressive moment. They have a lot of Neu-esque pensive moments, and their songs are really thoughtful.

This text describes their history well, and is consistent with what I remember about them. They started as an experimental Punk/Industrial band.

Die Einstürzenden Neubauten sind eine deutsche experimentelle Band der 80er und 90er Jahre. Die Berliner Band wurde 1980 gegründet von Blixa Bargeld, eigentlich Christian Emmerich, Andrew Unruh, eigentlich Andrew Chudy, Gudrun Gut und Beate Bartel (letztere gründeten kurze Zeit später Malaria). Die Besetzung fluktuierte anfangs und konsolidierte sich 1981 personell um Bargeld, Unruh, sowie die von der Hamburger Band Abwärts hinzugekommenen FM Einheit, eigentlich Frank Martin Strauss und Marc Chung sowie dem "Wunderkind" des Berliner Undergrounds, Alexander Hacke.

Die Gruppe entfernte sich nach ersten Erfolgen ab Mitte der 80er Jahre zunehmend aus der Punk- bzw. Industrialbewegung und arbeitete mehr und mehr an Theaterprojekten z.B. mit Peter Zadek 1986 im Hamburger Schauspielhaus, 1990 für die "Hamletmaschine" des Dramatikers Heiner Müller und 1994 für den "Faust" von Werner Schwab.

Seit dem Album "Tabula Rasa" kann man die Band wohl nicht mehr in die Industrial-Schublade stecken. Die Musik ist wesentlich ruhiger geworden und auch als Durchschnitts-Hörer kann man sie sich, entgegen der früheren Alben, anhören.

 

 

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Publius wrote: hehe. Einsturzende are a topic of much debate in industrial/rivethead circles. Believe me I've been there. 'A bunch of crazy Germans banging on things? That's not industrial!' I have heard many a time. They might sound industrial, but you could argue that Coheed And Cambria sound emo. Doesn't make them not progressive. I'm not saying they're typical prog rock, but they have very progressive moment. They have a lot of Neu-esque pensive moments, and their songs are really thoughtful.

Yes, it does - for some people. That's why Coheed And Cambria were removed from the archives - some styles like Emo, Punk and Industrial don't lend themselves to prog very much. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is unlikely.

Publius wrote: Great. but my German is limited I'm afraid.

Here's an english text:

Few bands have metamorphosed as dramatically over their careers as Einstürzende Neubauten. Formed in post-punk West Berlin, the band emerged as part of a Dadaist movement called Die Geniale Dillitanten (the brilliant amateurs) which aimed to break down all musical conventions. Enjoying their live debut on April 1, 1980, they quickly became known for 'unlistenable' eardrum-assaulting industrial noise and destructive, nihilistic behaviour, reportedly acted out in a haze of drugs and alcohol. Even their name aptly illustrated their destructive tendencies: 'Einstürzende' means 'collapsing' and 'Neubauten' is the German word for the ugly, box-like, concrete high-rise blocks of flats that mushroomed everywhere in Europe during the 1960s and '70s.

In those early days, Neubauten concerts often collapsed into rioting and critical uproar. In the UK, for instance, they gained notoriety in 1984 thanks to a concert at the ICA in London that featured road drills, chainsaws, a cement mixer, various raw building materials and, legend has it, a piano. During the performance, which was titled 'Concerto for Voice and Machine', glass bottles ended up in the cement mixer and the front rows were showered in sawdust and glass, leaving some with gashed faces. When the PA speakers came perilously close to the centre of destruction, ICA officials forcibly removed the protagonists from the stage, only to end up wrestling with crowd members who were into some DIY themselves. "Possibly the best gig since the crucifixion," concluded one enthusiastic reviewer.

In the context of such apparent nihilism, few would have put any money on the band making the end of the '80s. Yet nearly 25 years on, the band and its members are alive and well. What's more, EN's recent works are lyrical, pastoral, delicate things of beauty, full of melody, poetry and wonder. On their latest opus, Perpetuum Mobile (2004), for instance, power drills have made way for dried linden leaves, while its predecessor, Silence Is Sexy (2000) was an ode to silence. In recent years they've also been extensively involved in various high art projects such as dance and theatre performances. And where Neubauten once almost assaulted their audience with an uncompromising 'take it or leave it' attitude, Perpetuum Mobile came into being after intense interaction and consultation with fans, who witnessed the album's writing and recording sessions via the Internet. Einstürzende Neubauten have clearly come a long way.

Read the full article here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov04/articles/einsturzende.htm - http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov04/articles/einsturzende. htm

Publius wrote: Don't get the concepts of 'prog' and 'progressive' confused though!

If you continue to claim that they are prog, I wonder if YOU know the difference.

Publius wrote: I ain't sayin theyre prog! I'm saying they can be progressive. I'll wait for some more poll results...Then I'll decide what to do about them.

If they're not prog, they won't be included. At least that's the rule of thumb. If you want mailto:M@x - M@x to include them, you'll have to name one of their albums which is completely prog.

Fantômas wrote: Ok, I agree. But, see my point: I can see some  progressive tendencies on the work of Einstuerzende Neubauten. Indeed, they sound like Neu! sometimes... But  if they're added to the site, someone might claim that Ministry and KMFDM should be too... And I don't think these bands come to be progressive, they're Industrial. Einstuerzende Neubauten has some prog moments? For sure yes! But they belong to other "chain", other movement. So to add 'em, we should add the whole movement. The line of what is prog, and what isn't, is rather tenuous. This is my opinion, anyway.

At the top of this thread, you'll see that I mentioned similarities to Krautrock in a post. But given the real dilletantism in their "playing", I doubt that they will be recognized by Krautrock experts ... minimalism is ok, but there has to be some basic level of musicianship ...

Publius wrote: Yeah, nice one Fantomas I'm glad you see my point. Industrial is my favourite genre next to prog, but Einsturzende stand out amongst KMFDM, Ministry, NIN, Wumpscut etc. But people here I suppose won't really listen to that...

Why don't you make a case for Front 242? They are some sort of progressive industrial band - or rather EBM.

Fantômas wrote: Well, I always thought that Krautrock is "Experimental-German-Rock" or influenced by such...

Yeah. But careful what you say...you could trigger a 'then-krautrock-isnt-prog!-why-are-they-here!?' thread!

Publius wrote: Front 242 are progressive?

Yes, but not prog. You really don't know the difference, do you?

Yes I do but you misunderstand me. I said 'Front 242 are progressive' because I haven't heard them.

Trust me, if anyone knows the difference around here, I certainly do Test me!

Publius wrote: Yes I do but you misunderstand me. I said 'Front 242 are progressive' because I haven't heard them. Trust me, if anyone knows the difference around here, I certainly do Test me!

If you know the difference, then why were you so sure about Leftfield?

Ah. I thought they were 'mildly progressive' and not prog.

Publius wrote: Ah. I thought they were 'mildly progressive' and not prog.

And Einstürzende Neubauten, are they just progressive or prog? I'd say that they're "somewhat" progressive.

Publius wrote: I always did. But aren't Yes always referred to as the public as a rock band? Countless times I have seen 'Rock keyboardist Rick Wakeman'. Just because they are a different genre doesn't mean they aren't prog. Prog metal, prog rock, prog house, prog electronic, even prog death. this is just prog industrial.

Sure, and prog disco, prog ska, prog punk, etc.

BaldJean wrote: my personal opinion is: if "prog" really stands for "progressive", then the Einstürzende Neubauten should be included. the archive lists the sub-genre "avantgarde", which is exactly where they belong. their numerous appearances as musical background for radio or theatrical plays only add to this impression. they are 100% prog, but also 100% avantgarde, so fans of symphonic prog, beware!

But they're dilettantes - at least during the first ten years, when they were most experimental, they couldn't play instruments properly. Surely there's a difference between an artist who is an excellent musician who plays minimalistic stuff (for example Zappa), and an artist who just avoids playing complex music because he's not capable of it. 

Fantômas wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Surely there's a difference between an artist who is an excellent musician who plays minimalistic stuff (for example Zappa), and an artist who just avoids playing complex music because he's not capable of it.  And, also, there's a BIG difference between what you think is 'being capable' and what I think. So this is a invalid argument, for sure...

Not invalid ... but surely impossible to prove. I just never heard any recording that showed me that the Einstürzende Neubauten can really play. I love listening to Zappa's "You call that music?" where everyone is just goofing around on their instruments, because I KNOW what they're capable of.

Fantômas wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Fantômas wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Surely there's a difference between an artist who is an excellent musician who plays minimalistic stuff (for example Zappa), and an artist who just avoids playing complex music because he's not capable of it.  And, also, there's a BIG difference between what you think is 'being capable' and what I think. So this is a invalid argument, for sure... Not invalid ... but surely impossible to prove. I just never heard any recording that showed me that the Einstürzende Neubauten can really play. I love listening to Zappa's "You call that music?" where everyone is just goofing around on their instruments, because I KNOW what they're capable of. I see your point, but I have a question (in simple words that my poor english can reach): They can play, but they don't... The others 'can't' play and they don't. So this is my question: Where's the difference? The final result is what matters, not what they're capable of (IMO, of course)...

I know what you mean. I'm not saying that I'm right - it's a rule that makes sense to me. As I said - I'm a musician, and I consider prog to be a form of art which is based on music. I'm primarily interested in musically challenging stuff. Even if it was "played" by virtuoso musicians, I couldn't listen to a whole album of noise.