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Ambient Hurricanes 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
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 Posted: March 13 2012 at 16:49 |
 Slartibartfast wrote:
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
progresssaurus wrote:
Do you know some prog-rock author, which lyrics are religious, but not controversial potentially for nobody?
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No. No matter how gentle you are about it, some people are going to be offended to see the slightest bit of religion creeping into the public sphere. |
I don't believe that's the problem.
Most of us are offended when attacked, that's all.
BTW: Kerry Livegren
Iván
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I'm offended by the notion that we don't already have religion all over the public sphere. Most people would just like to be free to believe or not to believe.
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Exactly. Freedom of religion =/= freedom from religion (meaning that everyone should have the right to their own beliefs but should not have the right to isolate everyone else's.) |
You really missed my point. The "Christian" right wing in this country wants to impose their religion on everyone. You have this phony war on Christmas thing, not having official prayers in school is somehow infringing on the rights of individual students to pray in secret... Let's not even get into Westboro Baptist. It just goes on and on.
Fred Phelps is real. There are many who want to impose their religion into the public sphere, few who are offended by slightest bit creeping in. But if you are going to have peace amongst religions, separation of church and state is key.
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There's a difference between imposing religion on the public sphere and practicing religion in the public sphere. I believe that every person should be free to live out their faith in the public sphere, whether that be by prayer (I believe students have the right to pray publicly, but I don't promote official school prayer), evangelism, speaking out on moral issues or anything else. This is not imposing religion on everyone else, but being consistent with one's beliefs. I don't think Christians who are concerned about the secularization of Christmas and the perceived offensiveness of prayer are trying to impose religion on others, but instead are concerned that their freedom of speech and religion is being suppressed. Unless, of course, you consider evangelism an "imposing" of one's faith on someone else, which it's not: when I, as a Christian, proclaim the gospel to someone, I'm not imposing anything on them but sharing the good news with them. I can't force them to believe; I leave that up to God. On the other hand, look at the hate people like Tim Tebow are getting for making their faith public. I'm not trying to imply that all or most non-religious people are intolerant; I just think that there's a general trend in our society in which people think that faith should be kept to yourself, when in fact that's inconsistent with the very nature of most religions.
And as for Fred Phelps...he's a heretic. Based on his words and actions, he is not a Christian.
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17966
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Posted: March 13 2012 at 19:20 |
All this is too deep for me, my choice not to discuss religion too much.......Very touchy subject. I will say music that is overtly christian I generally do not care for. I am not looking to be preached to when listening to music, I prefer to try and decide on my own what it means without much outside influence, it may take 100's of listens for me but that is fine.
Kinda like the Bible, I can read portions over and over and am fine if I don't understand it or get it the way the Church says I should get it.
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progresssaurus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2012
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1884
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Posted: March 13 2012 at 23:53 |
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
There's a difference between imposing religion on the public sphere and practicing religion in the public sphere.
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Yes. No problem (by my personal meaning - but is OK for Christians, if somebody another in this position has crucifix turned 180 degree or pentagram?) with crucifix on neck of teacher in state school or administrator serving in state institution for public, because it can be interpreted like his personal "no denying Jesus". But crucifix on the wall of building for state institution problematic is, because it is neutral place serving for everybody - Christians (Roman Catholic, Lutheran ... ), Muslims (Sunni, Shia, Sufi ... ) satanists, atheists ...
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
...he's a heretic. Based on his words and actions, he is not a Christian. |
He can say something similar about you or me.
Catcher10 wrote:
Very touchy subject. |
I agree
Edited by progresssaurus - March 14 2012 at 02:39
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 14 2012 at 02:38 |
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
And as for Fred Phelps...he's a heretic. Based on his words and actions, he is not a Christian. |
I'm going to go out on a limb and say something nice about WBC, colorful signs. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Tuck
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 16 2012
Location: Richmond, VA
Status: Offline
Points: 16
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Posted: March 14 2012 at 11:10 |
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I feel like we should be able to discuss faith-based prog (or anti-religion prog in it's proper topic) without cascading into debate.
Just listened to Narnia's Great Fall of Man epic for the first time in a LONG time. Cheesy, but powerful. As simple as it is, I love the riff that brings the song to it's conclusion, layered with the sound effects.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 14 2012 at 11:21 |
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We should doesn't mean that we can, and I think it is somewhat inevitable to some extent, though I was surprised to see the argument regarding prohibition kicking-off here rather than in the anti-religion thread. And that said - we should be encouraging debate, not lamenting when it does occur.
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What?
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
Status: Offline
Points: 26138
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Posted: March 14 2012 at 11:52 |
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I don't subscribe to any particular organized religion, but I'm proud to say that over time and many years of searching I've eventually arrived at a spiritual skin that I feel comfortable in. As for Faith Based Prog, I think one's faith makes a valid, interesting, and pithy subject matter for music to address. I can hear others' religious convictions and understand the feeling behind it, even if the actual beliefs/teachings/whatever don't directly relate to mine. The strength and power of the band's own convictions is enough to rub off on me as heartfelt art, which is the important thing to me. Now: if the music or performance itself isn't to my liking, that's another matter; but I don't fault the "faith" part one bit, not if it's done convincingly.
Edited by HolyMoly - March 14 2012 at 11:53
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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progresssaurus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2012
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1884
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Posted: March 14 2012 at 12:31 |
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I am not believer and maybe I'm wrong, but I think, that in mostly (if not all) prog-rock lyrics with some telling against religion or against some denomination isn't real hating from author, but kindly sarcasm and not insulting irony rather. It spite of it I see, that it can discourage somebody from heartwarming listening such albums or bands. But life is life, for history of religions are characteristic potential conficts.
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
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Points: 7412
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Posted: March 14 2012 at 18:59 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
cstack3 wrote:
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Otherwise, I tend to stay clear of Christianity and music. Being raised in the Catholic faith was bad enough! I still have nightmares from what the nuns showed to us as youngsters. Fire & Brimstone stuff. |
I have to be honest, some nuns scare me (others are great persons), I was born as a lefty, but one nun believed it was wrong, so forced me to write with the right hand...Now I have terrible handwriting, something normal when you are forced to go against what your brain orders.
But at least I'm partially ambidextrous.
Iván |
Sorry to hear about that, my friend! We all bear the scars of our Catholic upbringing it seems!
This is about as much Christianity as I can tolerate in my prog:
"Coming closer with our eyes, a distance falls around our bodies.
Out in the garden, the moon seems very bright,
Six saintly shrouded men move across the lawn slowly.
The seventh walks in front with a cross held high in hand."
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 14 2012 at 19:22 |
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Long live instrumental prog!!!
Then who cares if it's faith based or anti-religion?
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: March 15 2012 at 02:52 |
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Instrumental music can be spiritual and non-spiritual. The end of A Saucerful Of Secrets seems to stir something up even in hardy non-believers like myself, whereas Atom Heart Mother, weird as this might sound, feels godless to me though it's hard to articulate why.
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AlexDOM
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2011
Location: Indianapolis
Status: Offline
Points: 775
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Posted: March 15 2012 at 11:03 |
Tuck wrote:
I feel like we should be able to discuss faith-based prog (or anti-religion prog in it's proper topic) without cascading into debate.
Just listened to Narnia's Great Fall of Man epic for the first time in a LONG time. Cheesy, but powerful. As simple as it is, I love the riff that brings the song to it's conclusion, layered with the sound effects.
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I love that song so much... the closing repetitive riff is so awesome, so powerful:)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 15 2012 at 18:51 |
cstack3 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
cstack3 wrote:
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Otherwise, I tend to stay clear of Christianity and music. Being raised in the Catholic faith was bad enough! I still have nightmares from what the nuns showed to us as youngsters. Fire & Brimstone stuff. |
I have to be honest, some nuns scare me (others are great persons), I was born as a lefty, but one nun believed it was wrong, so forced me to write with the right hand...Now I have terrible handwriting, something normal when you are forced to go against what your brain orders.
But at least I'm partially ambidextrous.
Iván |
Sorry to hear about that, my friend! We all bear the scars of our Catholic upbringing it seems!
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From an ignorant person that was a nun, not from Catholicism.
I had great teachers specialy one Priest (Father Francesco Interdonatto RIP) and i had bad teachers, one of them was a nun, but I don't blame the Church for that.
Iván
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 15 2012 at 18:59 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
cstack3 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
cstack3 wrote:
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Otherwise, I tend to stay clear of Christianity and music. Being raised in the Catholic faith was bad enough! I still have nightmares from what the nuns showed to us as youngsters. Fire & Brimstone stuff. |
I have to be honest, some nuns scare me (others are great persons), I was born as a lefty, but one nun believed it was wrong, so forced me to write with the right hand...Now I have terrible handwriting, something normal when you are forced to go against what your brain orders.
But at least I'm partially ambidextrous.
Iván |
Sorry to hear about that, my friend! We all bear the scars of our Catholic upbringing it seems!
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From an ignorant person that was a nun, not from Catholicism.
I had great teachers specialy one Priest (Father Francesco Interdonatto RIP) and i had bad teachers, one of them was a nun, but I don't blame the Church for that.
Iván |
Of course you don't, but you should ask why the nun thought left-handedness ( sinistrality) was wrong and why she forced you to correct it.
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What?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 15 2012 at 19:10 |
Textbook wrote:
Instrumental music can be spiritual and non-spiritual. The end of A Saucerful Of Secrets seems to stir something up even in hardy non-believers like myself, whereas Atom Heart Mother, weird as this might sound, feels godless to me though it's hard to articulate why. |
If you have to resort to lyrics/vocals, you lose something.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: March 15 2012 at 23:23 |
John Coltrane's A Love Supreme is intended to be about how he felt about god but to be honest, I don't get a religious/spiritual vibe from it at all, I just find it to be great music.
Now his acolyte Pharoah Sanders did a similar thing with The Creator Has A Master Plan but he did stick a vocalist on it making this explicit. And almost everyone agrees the vocals are the worst thing about The Creator Has A Master Plan. He should've let the music do the talking.
The Sermon by Jimmy Smith is another good example of instrumental music that's very spiritual.
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progresssaurus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2012
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1884
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Posted: March 16 2012 at 02:42 |
Dean wrote:
Of course you don't, but you should ask why the nun thought left-handedness (sinistrality) was wrong and why she forced you to correct it. |
Maybe she think, that
left-handedness
is against God's order, accordingly
sinistrality. But it is NOT sure, because pressure to change left-handed into right-handed is not typical for church surroundings only. The same pressure was frequent and normal for parents or teachers and educators working in institutions in secularized (or programmatically atheistic) countries during past times - from pragmatic [instruments and so] or ideologic like reasons [uniformity, all must to be the same, dissimilarity is danger for ideologists].
It is difficult to say, what is motivated by religious thinking immediately and what is caused generally by historical phases of evolution thinking about innate versus acquired psychic characteristics. Relations between both [edit: between both source of thinking about something] exists, but we cannot to say, what is primary origin. Evolution psychologist can to say, that religious thinking about "God's order" is caused (unconscious) by pragmatic relationships inside early human communities and it is reason, why we carry it for so long time and why is so hard change it by critical thinking after real new recognition [edit: about cause of
left-handing for example]. Edit:
But back to prog-rock. I like it for (among others) creative permeability across boundaries. Not musically only, but boundaries in other thinking too.
I think, that spirit of prog is better for talking ABOUT religious and mythical stories (or such ideas and feeling) rather then for explicit sermons, but for all that some honest sermons is acceptable for me.
Edited by progresssaurus - March 16 2012 at 04:13
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 16 2012 at 04:20 |
progresssaurus wrote:
Dean wrote:
Of course you don't, but you should ask why the nun thought left-handedness (sinistrality) was wrong and why she forced you to correct it. |
Maybe she think, that left-handedness is against God's order, accordingly sinistrality. But it is NOT sure, because pressure to change left-handed into right-handed is not typical for church surroundings only. The same pressure was frequent and normal for parents or teachers and educators working in institutions in secularized (or programmatically atheistic) countries during past times - from pragmatic [instruments and so] or ideologic like reasons [uniformity, all must to be the same, dissimilarity is danger for ideologists].
It is difficult to say, what is motivated by religious thinking immediately and what is caused generally by historical phases of evolution thinking about innate versus acquired psychic characteristics. Relations between both [edit: between both source of thinking about something] exists, but we cannot to say, what is primary origin. Evolution psychologist can to say, that religious thinking about "God's order" is caused (unconscious) by pragmatic relationships inside early human communities and it is reason, why we carry it for so long time and why is so hard change it by critical thinking after real new recognition [edit: about cause of left-handing for example] |
By a nun in a Catholic school in Peru in the 1970s? Regardless of any historical reasons why lefthandness has become associated with "god's punishment" I'll eat my hat if she was not motivated by religion.
Edited by Dean - March 16 2012 at 04:20
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What?
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Points: 32995
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Posted: March 16 2012 at 04:38 |
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Just send your hat to me if you don't want it.
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progresssaurus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2012
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1884
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Posted: March 16 2012 at 04:42 |
Dean wrote:
By a nun in a Catholic school in Peru in the 1970s? Regardless of any historical reasons why lefthandness has become associated with "god's punishment" I'll eat my hat if she was not motivated by religion. |
You are true. She was educated in catholic backround, so her personal thinkig is formed by catholic teaching in many ways. For me it is extenuating circumstance for her personally.
Edited by progresssaurus - March 16 2012 at 04:45
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Faith Based Prog
