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Trickster F. 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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 Posted: October 22 2006 at 15:18 |
 Philйas wrote:
See now why Prog Related and Proto-Prog are evil categories? They fill the site with non-Prog bands. |
They are, by definition, NOT Prog, and I don't see how people still can't get over that. 
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WaywardSon
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
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Posted: October 22 2006 at 16:41 |
They are prog related or proto prog , not fully prog
Examples of their influence would be songs like
Planet Caravan
Air Dance
The Wizard
All 3 of the "holy trinity" bands, Purple, Zeppelin and Sabbath were influencing each other at the time.
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: October 22 2006 at 16:47 |
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Personally I like to point towards Master Of Reality, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and Sabotage as Proto-Prog-Metal and also Prog-Related albums - unlike the common way of naming a few sounds that sound prog-related. Definitely a band worthy of inclusion, but I wouldn't beat my face on asphalt trying to get them here or anything.
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WaywardSon
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
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Posted: October 22 2006 at 19:29 |
Yes, I am pretty tired of beating my head on asphalt 
How can you have a debate with people who say "Prog related is evil! and "No no no!" with nothing to back it up.
And after a few pages someone is bound to post
"They have already been discussed and were rejected"
Wait for it...
Edited by WaywardSon - October 22 2006 at 19:29
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: October 23 2006 at 04:21 |
WaywardSon wrote:
How can you have a debate with people who say "Prog related is evil! and "No no no!" with nothing to back it up. |
You might want to read through this post, made by me in a thread suggesting Cream's addition, before saying what you just did.
Philéas wrote:
This site presents itself as a resource for progressive music, not as a
resource for music which inspired others to make progress or music
which has some relation to progressive music without being progressive
itself. That is why I feel that the Prog Related and Proto-Prog
categories should be removed entirely.
I realise that some of you may dislike my proposal and claim that some
of the bands in those two categories were, in fact, progressive.
However, if they are progressive they shouldn't be in an essentially
non-progressive category, right? And if the music is not progressive it
shouldn't be on the site at all, right?
The description of the Prog Related category says that the bands placed
there are not really mainstream, but not really Prog either. But as far
as I know, there is no "Slightly" in Prog Archives, which means
slightly progressive bands are out.
The description of the Proto-Prog category clearly states that some
bands in that category were not progressive. So why are they on the
site then? I can't see "Proto" anywhere in Prog Archives either. As far
as I'm concerned, the argument that a certain band had substantial
influence on the developement of Prog can't be used unless we also
include all the composers of different forms of Classical and Art music
whose works have influenced Prog (and perhaps also all the orchestras
who have performed the works in question). |
My reply to some criticism I recieved could also be of interest:
Philéas wrote:
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
So you think that history of progressive music is not part of the scope? |
The history of progressive music is certainly interesting and even
important, but I still don't think that we need to include
particularily influential bands in the archives. An article about the
origin of Prog Rock and progressive music in general, pointing out some of the more influential bands and records, would be
sufficient.
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
Could be seen so too, but I fear that the
categories you named will never be removed, as far as I know, not even
a single band which have been added here has ever been deleted! |
Change is not bad. Certainly not when it improves something. Of course,
that is subjective, but the fact that some additions widely viewed as
inappropriate by the members of this site hasn't been deleted or even
questioned by the staff is alarming. Especially when considering that many truly
innovative bands are left off the site. |
And another reply to further criticism:
Philéas wrote:
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
These missing bands should be reported immetiadly to "Suggest New Bands" section. |
The problem isn't that they haven't been reported, the problem is that
the admins appear to ignore some of them based on their personal
preferences, even when the criteria for getting included are met by the
bands in question.
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
I believe tat bands are not removed, as if their albums are reviewed,
it would be seen as unpolite act towards the reviewers to delete the
album entries along with hard worked reviews. I recall I saw this kind
of explanations here some time ago. |
In my opinion that explanation isn't good enough. If the admin team
avoids removing a band because they fear people will get angry the
system doesn't work. The admins should apologise for any inconvenience
and be able to explain to the upset reviewers that the action was taken
because the band in question was deemed unsuitable for the site by the
majority of the members (who must have some knowledge of what's
progressive and what's not, since they listen to progressive music). If
the admins can't offer an explanation they ought to be replaced by
others who can (not at all insinuating that I ought to be promoted to
admin in case any of you were wondering). I'm sure that in some cases,
the number of people who will be upset is larger if a band is left on
the site than if it's deleted.
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
About the site democracy which you refer in "the majority of the site
members", I believe it doesn't exists in this site as in it's most
purest anarchic form. I'm not alarmed about it, nor welcome it. It just
is so, and I accept it without emotions. The site policies are defined
by the admin team, and the site functions according to the rules they
have measured. |
I'm not really propagating for a 100 % member-ruled site, as that
undoubtedly will result in even more questionable additions than we
have today. We certainly have reasons to have the specialist teams.
However, like I previously said in this post, the members, because they
listen to progressive music, ought to have a sufficient knowledge about
what distinguishes progressive music from non-progressive music, and if
the majority of these knowledgeable members (most of the active
members) are complaining, something must surely be wrong, don't you
think? |
I apologise for some small grammar mistakes in the original posts.
Edited by Philéas - October 23 2006 at 04:23
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WaywardSon
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
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Posted: October 23 2006 at 08:41 |
Phileas,I appreciate your posts and your opinions about having a prog related genre.
Maybe it would be a good idea to make a poll and see what the majority of people here think about scrapping the prog related genre altogether?
But this isn´t about whether there should be a particular genre or not, this is about suggesting new bands, and the band that was suggested was Black Sabbath.
Lets focus on Black Sabbath and not whether prog related should be on the site.
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salmacis
Forum Senior Member
Content Addition
Joined: April 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3928
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Posted: October 23 2006 at 09:43 |
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They cannot be 'proto prog' as they released their debut in 1970, a full year after 1969 which some see as the true birthyear of prog as we know it. In fact, I don't see them as a prog band at all- never really have done.
Let me think which songs are vaguely progressive- 'Behind The Wall Of Sleep', 'Sleeping Village', 'Planet Caravan', 'Orchid', 'Sabbra Cadabra', 'Who Are You', 'The Writ', 'Megalomania', 'Heaven and Hell', 'Die Young', 'Eternal Idol' and I'm pushing it then. A clear influence on the development of prog metal but then every metal band must have been, really! A definite no for even 'prog related' from me.
There needs to be a definite focus on genuine prog bands rather than prog related ones. As far as I'm concerned, surely most bands that could realistically and credibly be called 'prog related' are there already? I like the idea of 'prog related' myself but I think for the moment, we've taken it as far as it can go. Just my personal opinion of course...
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: October 23 2006 at 14:00 |
WaywardSon wrote:
Phileas,I appreciate your posts and your opinions about having a prog related genre.
Maybe it would be a good idea to make a poll and see what the
majority of people here think about scrapping the prog related genre
altogether?
But this isn´t about whether there should be a particular genre or
not, this is about suggesting new bands, and the band that was
suggested was Black Sabbath.
Lets focus on Black Sabbath and not whether prog related should be on the site.
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Yes, but I felt I had to re-post my arguments against Proto-Prog and
Prog Related because I got tired of people not looking them up in the
original thread. Now that I've done that, we can resume the Black Sabbath
discussion. 
The only category where I feel Black Sabbath perhaps could be added is
Prog Related, but even that is a stretch as they haven't made any 100 %
Prog song. Salmacis also gives some good arguments against them being
added to Proto-Prog.
I don't see the point in adding yet another non-Prog band to the site,
especially when the arguments are so vague (influence alone doesn't get
them into Prog Related) as they are in this case. Queen and Zep meet
the criteria for being added to Prog Related, but Black Sabbath don't
(although they are close, but not close enough).
Edited by Philéas - October 23 2006 at 14:01
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WaywardSon
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
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Posted: October 23 2006 at 14:38 |
Good post Phileas 
One last question before I give up the ghost.
salmacis mentions 1970 when they released their debut. Doesn´t it count that they formed in 1968 under a different name and changed their name to Black Sabbath in 1969? Or is it related to their first official release?
Edited by WaywardSon - October 23 2006 at 14:38
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: November 07 2006 at 09:50 |
salmacis wrote:
They cannot be 'proto prog' as they released their
debut in 1970, a full year after 1969 which some see as the true
birthyear of prog as we know it. In fact, I don't see them as a prog
band at all- never really have done.
Let me think which songs are vaguely progressive- 'Behind The Wall
Of Sleep', 'Sleeping Village', 'Planet Caravan', 'Orchid', 'Sabbra
Cadabra', 'Who Are You', 'The Writ', 'Megalomania', 'Heaven and Hell',
'Die Young', 'Eternal Idol' and I'm pushing it then. A clear influence
on the development of prog metal but then every metal band must have
been, really! A definite no for even 'prog related' from me.
There needs to be a definite focus on genuine prog bands rather
than prog related ones. As far as I'm concerned, surely most bands that
could realistically and credibly be called 'prog related' are there
already? I like the idea of 'prog related' myself but I think for the
moment, we've taken it as far as it can go. Just my personal opinion of
course... |
nice post... and for the record.. violently against their inclusion in any vein...
looking at your post though.... are they such a clear
influence on Prog Metal.... or just metal? To use a fantasy
example I used in another thread earlier this morning. Elvis
influence rock obviously.. but of course not prog. The example
might be apples and oranges... but without much of a shred of prog in
them... how could they have influenced the prog in prog metal.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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PROGMAN
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 03 2004
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 2664
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Posted: November 07 2006 at 18:16 |
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Sabotage and Technical Ecstacy show the most proginess in them IMO.
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CYMRU AM BYTH
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Asyte2c00
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 15 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2099
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Posted: November 07 2006 at 18:34 |
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If Sabbath gets on PA, I will no longer post on this site.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: November 07 2006 at 21:08 |
Sigh.
This stuff NEVER ends.... 
PROG Archives!
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Eetu Pellonpaa
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 4828
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Posted: November 08 2006 at 06:13 |
Philéas wrote:
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
These missing bands should be reported immetiadly to "Suggest New Bands" section. |
The problem isn't that they haven't been reported, the problem is that the admins appear to ignore some of them based on their personal preferences, even when the criteria for getting included are met by the bands in question.
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Well I'm not sure if you trust my word, but there is truly a huge list of bands which are under evaluation, and at least in my experience all suggestions are checked out. Now one thing which may appear: When a larger group of admins get interested in certain bands, it's possible that the priorities of addition evaluations are ruled more by general interest than the order in which the bands are suggested. But as this work is done in basis of free will with out money salary, isn't this acceptable?
EDIT: About Sabbath, I think their first album is quite artistic record. I have an understanding that before recording it they had done at least some of the songs of their second album, and one of them ("Paranoid"?) was released as a single. As it charted much better than their 1st album, they then gathered that earlier stuff to their 2nd "Paranoid" album and moved toward more conventional heavy rock style. Please correct if I'm wrong about this. From their later career, "Sabotage" is quite interesting album, and I would recommend anybody having taste for artistic 70's metal to check that out. (my favorite along their 1st)
Edited by Eetu Pellonpää - November 08 2006 at 06:28
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46838
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Posted: November 08 2006 at 06:29 |
Asyte2c00 wrote:
If Sabbath gets on PA, I will no longer post on this site. |
hahahah... I have a one way ticket over the side on the WW bridge if that happens
Sabbath probably isn't going to happen so make sure you stick around.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
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Points: 24429
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Posted: November 08 2006 at 06:55 |
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OK, guys, now let me set a few things straight. I apologise in advance if my tone may seem aggressive to somebody, but I'm somewhat tired of seeing people threatening to leave or, even worse, throwing accusations around when they have absolutely no idea of how this site works.
First of all, as a member of the Admin team, I resent such sweeping (not to mention totally untrue) statements as "the admins appear to ignore some of them based on their personal preferences". There may be people who add bands or artists on the sole basis of their personal preferences (in many cases taking advantage of the obscurity of the act itself), but the members of the Admin team are certainly not among them. I added Iron Maiden after a long discussion and took a lot of flak for that, which led me to leave the site for almost a month - but, though I can't deny IM are one of my favourite bands, I only added them after a very clear green-light signal had come from 'above'.
Yes, my dear fellow forum members, far too many of you seem to ignore a simple, basic fact: this site does not belong to any of us, not even to the allegedly all-powerful Admins. This site is owned by two people called Max and Rony, and they have clearly stated their wish to expand both the Prog-Related and the Proto-Prog categories. Period. If any of you don't agree with this policy, you're free to leave and find a more 'pure' prog website (which I assure you doesn't exist.. all those I have visited so far are far more inclusive than PA is). I am sorry if some of you see those two categories as evil, or as an attempt to make the site lose credibility - but this is just how things stand. Offending the Admin team or anyone else will not change things a bit.
BTW, I am NOT in favour of Black Sabbath's addition, as I see very little relation to prog in their output - unlike in the case of Iron Maiden, Rainbow and even Blue Oyster Cult. And this doesn't mean that they are not favourites of mine like the aforementioned three bands...
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: November 08 2006 at 08:01 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
Yes, my dear fellow forum members, far too
many of you seem to ignore a simple, basic fact: this site does not
belong to any of us, not even to the allegedly all-powerful Admins.
This site is owned by two people called Max and Rony, and they have
clearly stated their wish to expand both the Prog-Related and the
Proto-Prog categories. Period. If any of you don't agree with this
policy, you're free to leave and find a more 'pure' prog website (which
I assure you doesn't exist.. all those I have visited so far are far
more inclusive than PA is). I am sorry if some of you see those two
categories as evil, or as an attempt to make the site lose credibility
- but this is just how things stand. Offending the Admin team or anyone
else will not change things a bit.
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well said...
I know I've stated that I do not agree with the policy.. but it's
not my site. I choose to stay and work on the site because I
enjoy it. and the people here. Do I feel the site's integrety is
compromised?.. in a way.. honestly.. I do. As a prog site it
may. As I posted earlier in the collab area.. all those groups of
the 'classic era' of rock had progressive or prog elements in their
music to some extent. That is what made that era so special for
rock. Where does this inclusiveness stop.. when this site is more
a 'classic rock' website than prog? Who knows. I know I
came here to learn about prog.. and prog keeps me here. I think
the decision reached after the IM fiasco was a good course.. that PR
and PP additions were not to be the priority but... the mass of
potential prog groups on the master list. Such additions were to got
through the admins. However, the powers that be want an inclusive
site. So we'll work to make it so. I couldn't agree more
that the other posters do need to realize that. We are meerly following
orders here. I haven't added a PR group and won't... I'll
lend my opinions and support for on PR and PP additions. My interest
here is Art Rock and RPI. Anyway.. this is the last I have to say
on the subject. There is real work to be done ..with the prog
groups hahahha 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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S Lang
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 01 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 441
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Posted: November 17 2006 at 06:07 |
Black Sabbath's "Master of Reality" is filled with great riffs that influenced many Prog-Metal performers, whereas their previous two albums were groundbreaking on their own. The tune "Sleeping Village" on their first album offered more Prog promise, never to be fulfilled.
I truly understand the opposition by some, yet I wouldn't violently oppose their inclusion for they came up with something unheard of before. That implies progressive by it's nature of something new and reasonably captivating.
I see their music as somewhat primitive - due to the vocals and the misconstrued interpretation of the occult - yet, they created an effect on many, that's undeniable. My gut-feeling tells me that some day they'll be in and not at my behest.
I will not object to that though.
Some youngsters I've spoken to were surprised how close Grunge that emerged 30 years later was little different to what was started in the early '70s. Excepting for technical improvements.
I repeat here. " There are no old jokes, only old people. To a newborn, every joke is new."
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yarstruly
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 29 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1324
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Posted: November 17 2006 at 13:24 |
ResidentAlien wrote:
[QUOTE=Philéas]
The site's reducing it's credibility on it's own with Iron Maiden and Led Zeppelin.
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where is Led zeppelin...I don't see 'em...
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Black Sabbath??