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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 29298
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Posted: October 15 2004 at 03:18 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
- Kansas: Often compared with STYX, Boston and other AOR bands due to the fact that all are from USA and reached their peak around the same years,
- Triumvirat: They are considered ELP clones when I really believe Illusions and Spartacus are as solid as any ELP release.
- Focus: The fact that they are from a country where prog' bands are not prolific leads to consider them a B class band, when I believe they are unique. Also because they are a flute based band leads to compare them or confuse them with Jethro Tull (90% of the people still believe The House of the King is a Tull song) when both are completely different.
Iván
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1. Only the first 2 Kansas albums are that good IMO.After that they went AOR .....or should that be AWOL?
2.Triumvirat are ELP 'wannabies'.Nowhere near as good as ELP though.
3 Focus could be very tedious at times.Too much of ther music is 'lazy' and lacks structure for my liking.They could be brilliant though ie 'Sylvia' and 'Hocus Pocus'.
Edited by richardh
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Lunarscape
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 19 2004
Location: Brazil
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Points: 374
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Posted: October 15 2004 at 08:38 |
Underestimated bands are IMO bands who made good prog rock, gathered up huge audiences but was left out in cold by the midia and record czars. A few good examples would be Kayak, Caravan, Curved Air, Neuronium, Banco, Greenslade, Amon Duul, Colloseum and a few others I cant recall right now. We have to have in mind that the "Major League" of prog rock isnt resumed into Yes, Genesis, ELP, KC or J.Tull. Bands like Focus, Triumvirat, Trace had the same status here in Brazil as these other bands. We were just as eager the listen to the new releases from Focus, Trace, Triumvirat, Kayak, Caravan as we were had it been from the so called Major League.
Bands like Kansas are definitly not underestimated since you dont survive on 3-4 prog rock tunes on two albums. IMO Kansas is indeed overestimated mostly due to marketing policies by some record companies. (After all, America should have some prog rock bands too, at that time !!!) Believe me, there are still thousands of Kansas alikes out there just as mediocre as Kansas, but since nobody listens to them and nobody invest in them, thus they are doomed to oblivion.
Ivan; Triumvirat have lots of elements similar to ELP but elements enough to be difererent. A typical example of "wannabe" should be Le Orme, not Triumvirat. The main difference is that Jurgen Fritz had a much stronger "classical" influence in his keyboard playing, where as Emmerson is borderline between jazz and neoclassic. ELP had more fusion elements in their music than Triumvirat. The similarities; prog power-trios with keyboards, drums and bass.
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Lunar ![](smileys/smiley4.gif)
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Cesar Inca
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Joined: May 19 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 4888
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Posted: October 15 2004 at 09:21 |
Lunarscape wrote:
Bands like Kansas are definitly not underestimated since you dont survive on 3-4 prog rock tunes on two albums. IMO Kansas is indeed overestimated mostly due to marketing policies by some record companies.
Ivan; Triumvirat have lots of elements similar to ELP but elements enough to be difererent. A typical example of "wannabe" should be Le Orme, not Triumvirat. |
Once again here we are: KANSAS were keen on melodies and fine arrangements, and then they scored a number of hit singles... Voilá... they are overestimated. In my humble opinion, they were a prog rock band that put special emphasis on the rock side of things, yet their multi-keyboard orchestrations, emotional melodic lines, the splendorous use of violin and piano in many places, and of course, the bizarre arrangements and complex rhythm patterns in their most ambitious numbers, all of these factors qualify them as a very good prog band. But again, they made lots of money with some singles, right?, and that's something that a "allegedly real" prog-head should not forgive them, right? Yeah, KANSAS went AOR regrettably, but that's IMHO less sick than going techno-pop, like Genesis): Banks and co. should have left the techno-business in the exclusive hands of Ultravox, OMD, and some others who knew better.
Now, LE ORME. While LE ORME received some clear influences by ELP, they managed to keep a distinct sound very much related to that Mediterranean folklore that also filled some of the best compositions by PFM and BMS. The baroque factor in some LE ORME's numbers is also based upon the spirit of their own land, not ELP. That becomes obvious whenever Pagliuca plays his RMI electric harpsichord with fluid delicateness; it's a 20th Century Italian paying tribute to an 18th Century fellowcountryman, not imitating Emerson. When playing the Hammond, you can tell that he was into Emerson, but the band itself was far from being a ELP clone. To me it's obvious that TRIUMVIRAT is much, too much less independent from the ELP influence than LE ORME (not that I don't enjoy Trumvirat's first four albums, which I do, indeed...)
Nice discussion indeed, as well... Regards.
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Lunarscape
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Joined: September 19 2004
Location: Brazil
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Points: 374
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Posted: October 15 2004 at 09:48 |
Carlos, I agree totally with you on the 4 first Triumvirat albums (have you ever heard Russian Roulette !) your Le Orme description is perfect, I saw them here iin Rio last year, and I was impressed by the similarities between Pagliuca and Emerson, technically and instrumentation. ![](smileys/smiley17.gif)
On Kansas; No ! I've always considered Kansas a "producers" band, so when time and money was given....they went into pop !
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Lunar ![](smileys/smiley4.gif)
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Music Is The Soul Bird That Flies In The Immense Heart Of The Listener . . .
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: October 15 2004 at 12:35 |
Lunarscape wrote:
Ivan; Triumvirat have lots of elements similar to ELP but elements enough to be difererent. A typical example of "wannabe" should be Le Orme, not Triumvirat. The main difference is that Jurgen Fritz had a much stronger "classical" influence in his keyboard playing, where as Emmerson is borderline between jazz and neoclassic. ELP had more fusion elements in their music than Triumvirat. The similarities; prog power-trios with keyboards, drums and bass | .
No Lunarscape, I never said Triumvirat was an ELP clone, I was the one who said they were under estimated, blame that to others (LOL), I even said I found Spartacus and Illusions as strong as almost any ELP album, and I stand on this. Also Mediterranean Tales and Pompeii are pretty decent albums.
Can’t agree more with your description of both bands, I always felt Keith Emerson received his main influence from the late Romantic and Modern classical periods, you can listen lots of references from those periods (Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, Janacek or even Ginastera).
Some people blame them for A La Carte or even for Russian Roulette and they are right, those albums don’t have the same quality as the ones above mentioned, but if you dig in the backyard of every good band you’ll find some corpses also, in the case of ELP there is Love Beach and In the Hot Seat, Genesis has almost all the three men era, Yes has the Rabin years, Wakeman has a lot of bland New Age, etc.
About Le Orme I don’t agree with you, in Felona e Sorona, the Yes and Genesis references are at least as strong as the ones from ELP, but as every Italian Symphonic band they had that unique Mediterranean sound blended with Symphonic prog’ that made them so different to any British Progressive band
About Kansas Cesar talked enough and I agree 100% with him (Now you believe me they are under estimated by many Prog’ fans?), they were far from being mediocre as someone said before, Kansas is pure USA Prog’, they blended hard rock with symphonic prog’ and melodic music perfectly, the fact they had some commercial songs doesn’t make them bad.
No prog’ band had more commercial success than Pink Floyd and they are considered the “peak of the crop” by millions. Returning to Kansas, Even Dust in the Wind is a beautiful tune, simple but effective, far from being a love song as some “intelligent” critic wrote in a famous magazine (on the contrary it’s depressive), but it was media’s fault that the song was overplayed and everybody got tired of it.
2 or 3 albums? I'd say at least 10 albums, please, where do you leave tracks as Song For America, Miracles Out of Nowhere, Closet Chronicles, Magnum Opus, The Wall, Icarus, Journey from Mariabronn, Portrait, Carry on Wayward Son, etc. All great prog’ songs from different albums.
Kansas IMO never went POP, you can blame them for being closer to hard rock than most symphonic bands but hard rock is not POP.
The opinions about Focus seem divided, Richardh even called them tedious and lazy. Well, they are different to any British Prog’ band, as the Italians, the people of Nederland have their own unique style, sometimes Ackerman’s melodic passages seem endless, but that’s their own sound, it’s softer than most British prog’, but Camel is also softer and also are very good.
Maybe the fact that Focus is mainly instrumental (This Van Leer uses his voice mostly for yodeling and making sounds) makes them seem softer and less complex than they are, but for those that don’t like Focus I recommend Hamburger Concerto, I’m sure you’ll find this album rewarding.
Nice discussion. Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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Cesar Inca
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Posted: October 15 2004 at 13:04 |
Lunarscape wrote:
your Le Orme description is perfect, I saw them here iin Rio last year, and I was impressed by the similarities between Pagliuca and Emerson, technically and instrumentation. |
Mmmmm.... Pagliuca isn't a member of Le Orme since the mid 80s. Now Le Orme is a "power quartet" with two keyboardsmen, one of them handling the piano parts and some orchestrations and doubling on violin at times, while the other plays keyboards all the time, emphasizing the massive orhcestrations and playing all the wild solos (even those that resemble lead guitar sounds). The latter is the one who plays a Hammond Organ and two other keyboards. I'm sorry I don't feel that way, but this keyboardsman is less simiar to Emerson than Pagliuca ever was --- he's more like Wakeman, but again, he's got a style of his own.
An Italian keyboardsman who sounds very very emersonian to me is the one in Metamorfosi, but neither he nor any of the keyboardsmen in Le Orme ever ripped off an Emerson chord progression on organ or a melody line on Moog. But FRITZ DID!!, YES, HE DID!!
Well. I guess an interesting discussion can never end, because of its thought stimulating nature.
Regards.
Edited by Cesar Inca
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Scratchy
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Joined: October 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 110
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Posted: October 16 2004 at 13:57 |
Recommended ones to check out:-
Bodkin - (rare) heavy guitar/organ from Scotland
Black Widow - Unfairly catagorised along side Black Sabbath(much more varied/more suble).More like early Yes and Led Zeppelin or Spooky Tooth.
Byzantium - sort of US West Coast/Jazz Prog
Cirkus - Good vocals(not sure about lyrics)/guitar with mellotron/orchastrated backing.
Clouds - sounds a bit outdated with its jazzy orchastrated backing but there's something about them that I like.
Cressida - A little on the light side for my taste but can't fault their craftsmanship
Czar - If like King Crimson's 21st Cent. Psycho. man you'll like this band
Dark - Fuzz Psych-Prog
If - Jazz Prog - God the singer doesn't half sound like Sting(at his best that is)
Khan - Steve Hillage & Dave Stewart(not that one - the one who played with Bill Bruford) at their best- Space Shantity - a must for any collection.
Fuchusia - only heard one track - 'another nail' but sounds good - folk Psych/prog
Druid - Yes clones but they do it bl**dy well
Fuzzy Duck - Heavy - guitar/organ prog
Comus - Folk psych/prog- First Utterance only though
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Scratchy
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Joined: October 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 110
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Posted: October 16 2004 at 14:58 |
Some of the newer bands out there I like are:-
The Gathering(anneke van gersbergen is an amazing singer - good trippy keyboards - dub/Roger Watersbass,excellent drummer,not sure about the guitarist but he's O.K.Anybody who likes Psych/space prog music should love this band.They may be gothic but the doom/death metal has gone.Symphonic Black Metal doesn't fit any more.Trip rock maybe.Sandy Denny etc.,Tori Amos,Sarah McLachlan should also like them - Very underrated if not totally Prog.
Porcupine Tree - anybody who wants to form a Prog band who wants to add a more modern sound should check this band out- latter stuff anyway - don't particularly like the space rock stuff on earlier albums.
Opeth - another from the Doom metal begginings.Can be easily compared with groups like groups like Folk Prog - Forest with trippy keyboards and prog bass backing.
Alias Eye - Prog Metalish - lead singer has an excellant operatic type voice.
Lemar voice - Prog Metal - disbanded some time ago - can get very progressive on some tracks.Gregoor Van Der Loo is my main reason for liking this band tough - similar to singer in Alias Eye.He is now in a band Slow Poke Rodrigo- sort of Trip Hop/Dub/( 2 step-whatever that is) with progressive elements.Heard his songs on their internet site - is the album forth purchasing - not sure.
Edited by Scratchy
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frenchie
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 30 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 2234
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Posted: October 16 2004 at 15:18 |
OCEANSIZE!!!
they're from manchester and they have an incredible debut album and are occasionally on mtv2. but no1 will let them on this site! they are amazing!
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The Worthless Recluse
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Lunarscape
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 19 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: October 18 2004 at 18:20 |
Cesar - Pagliuca wasnt in the Rio gig lineup, I just rambled and got two toughts melted into one ! ! ! I honestly dont believe that Fritz deliberately took Emerson's solos into Triumvirats music, remember that they "drank" from the same fountain !
Ivan, I had 3-4 Kansas albums, that I voluntarily donated to friends since I didnt have the "ear" for the band. ![](smileys/smiley19.gif)
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Lunar ![](smileys/smiley2.gif)
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Music Is The Soul Bird That Flies In The Immense Heart Of The Listener . . .
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Reed Lover
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Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
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Posted: October 18 2004 at 18:27 |
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gdub411
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Joined: August 24 2004
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Points: 3484
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Posted: October 18 2004 at 18:34 |
Bay City Rollers
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Reed Lover
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Posted: October 18 2004 at 18:44 |
gdub411 wrote:
Bay City Rollers |
Did you know thatBay City Rollers is an anagram of
"favoured by UPS van drivers" ?![Geek](https://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley23.gif)
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gdub411
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Posted: October 18 2004 at 18:48 |
Say...When are we going to start a thread on Over-Rated bands so I can put Rush at the top of the list?
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Reed Lover
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Posted: October 18 2004 at 18:55 |
gdub411 wrote:
Say...When are we going to start a thread on Over-Rated bands so I can put Rush at the top of the list?![](smileys/smiley2.gif) |
![Ouch](https://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif)
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Dick Heath
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Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
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Posted: October 18 2004 at 18:57 |
Scratchy wrote:
Cirkus - Good vocals(not sure about lyrics)/guitar with mellotron/orchastrated backing.
Not to be confused with Circus, Mel Collins jazz rock band of the late 60's.
If - Jazz Prog - God the singer doesn't half sound like Sting(at his best that is)
That's a bit of an insult to
J.W.Hodkinson, who had one of the finest blues jazz voices of the
70's - and is still to be heard in the NW of England. (At least
his song didn't include tree-hugging). Alas If's great
saxophonist, Dick Morrissey died about two ago.
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gdub411
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Posted: October 18 2004 at 18:59 |
....Moh Ha Ha Ha!
....just kidding Reed
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Dan Bobrowski
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Posted: October 18 2004 at 21:06 |
gdub411 wrote:
Say...When are we going to start a thread on Over-Rated bands so I can put Rush at the top of the list?![](smileys/smiley2.gif) |
We should have a hundred pygmy johnny holmes' sodomize you for that crude joke.....![](smileys/smiley7.gif)
but you'd be okay with that. ![](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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Scratchy
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Joined: October 16 2004
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Posted: October 20 2004 at 16:02 |
Dick Heath wrote:
That's a bit of an insult to J.W.Hodkinson, who had one of the finest blues jazz voices of the 70's - and is still to be heard in the NW of England. (At least his song didn't include tree-hugging). Alas If's great saxophonist, Dick Morrissey died about two ago.
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I agree.It wasn't ment as an insult.I was thinking more about the vocals on Roxanne - which I believe are good,not since he's become a Contempory/New Age artist.
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