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May we talk about the war in Europe? |
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Atavachron 
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65602 |
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 Posted: October 12 2022 at 15:28 |
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Putin would be deposed, arrested, possibly assassinated. Russians may be desperate but they. aren't stupid |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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geekfreak
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Joined: June 21 2013 Location: Musical Garden Status: Offline Points: 9872 |
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Posted: October 12 2022 at 23:32 |
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Absolutely nothing as changed. The only thing that matters is the people who are in the minority who are at risk. The people of the Ukraine. |
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Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake."
Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Online Points: 20414 |
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Posted: October 13 2022 at 05:09 |
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Just giving you facts about the general journalist slant we get in the west. Part of winning a war was always the public opinion behind you, at the expense of the truth.
Northstream pipeline bombing/sabotage. For those who have a brain, it's clearly not a Russian act, because the installations belong to GazProm at 55%. The Baltic Sea has a max depth of 80m (at one precise point) and its average depth is between 20m and 30m.... AFAIAC, even Tchadian pearl hunters diving apnea in canoes could've gone there and plant the bomb or sabotage it >> my first suspects would be Ukr or Poland. Damaging the installations make it impossible to using it until it will be replaced/repaired ($$$$££££€€€€ and many months/years) should the EC change their mind about the boycott*. The only country finding an advantage in that sabotage is Zelensyland. Given my job, I was able to read the IAEA report of their visit to the nuke plant Zaporija that was bombarded. BTW, the report mentions of a torture room to entice the local technical staff to collaborate in keeping the PP active and produce electricity. It clearly says that the shells were of Ukrainian origins >> though everybody accused the Russians in the press. * : We all read everywhere that Russia has cut gas line to the EC, but part of the pack of first sanctions the EC took towards Russia was gradually boycotting the gas... with a certain timeframe ... Tit for Tat: It's only normal that Russia cuts all delivery immediately, since the west is helping its foe. The shortages we are facing is the EC's fault, because of their dumb decision to meddle in in a local (regional at best) conflict. The only good news is that the boycott will be good for the planet. Food for thoughts.  Edited by Sean Trane - October 13 2022 at 05:25 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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King of Loss
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Joined: April 21 2005 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 16889 |
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Posted: October 13 2022 at 07:45 |
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Ugh oh. Not this thread again...
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SteveG
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Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Posted: October 13 2022 at 13:45 |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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progaardvark
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Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 52608 |
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Posted: October 13 2022 at 15:32 |
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They take everything that is nickel, but don't pay for it. No, it's not a dog bowl. This place has a lot of cups.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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jamesbaldwin
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Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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Posted: October 16 2022 at 12:36 |
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I agree with this Italian campaign for peace: CEASEFIRE NOW - NEGOTIATION FOR PEACE BAN ALL NUCLEAR WEAPONS SOLIDARITY WITH THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE AND THE VICTIMS OF ALL WARS National Demonstration Rome - Saturday 5 November 2022 concentration at 12 noon - squares and route will be communicated in the coming days The shadow of atomic war looms over the world The nuclear threat looms over the world. It is the responsibility and duty of states and peoples to stop this madness. Humanity and the planet cannot accept that disputes be resolved by armed conflict. War has global consequences: it is the main cause of world food crises, even more disastrous in Africa and the East, it affects the cost of living, the poorest and weakest social strata, it determines nefarious choices for the climate and the life of the planet. War swallows everything and blocks the hope for a fairer and more sustainable future for future generations. This war must be stopped now We condemn the aggressor, we respect the Ukrainian resistance, we pledge to help, support, rescue the Ukrainian people, we stand by the victims. We are with those who reject the logic of war and choose non-violence. The unacceptable invasion of Ukraine by Russia has brought back to the heart of Europe the war that is about to become a global conflict between military blocs with dramatic consequences for the lives and futures of the Ukrainian and Russian peoples and of Europe as a whole. We are close to and in solidarity with the affected population, with the refugees forced to flee, to abandon their homes, their jobs, victims of bombings, violence, discrimination, rape, torture. This war must be stopped now. No more suffering. Italy, the European Union and member states, and the United Nations must take responsibility for negotiating to stop the escalation and reach an immediate ceasefire. It is urgent to work towards a political solution to the conflict, deploying all the resources and means of diplomacy in order to make respect for international law prevail, bringing to the negotiating table the representatives of the governments of Kiev and Moscow, together with all the actors necessary to find a just peace. Together with Pope Francis, we say: 'Let there be a halt to arms, and let the conditions be sought for negotiations capable of leading to solutions that are not imposed by force, but agreed, just and stable. Humanity and the planet must rid themselves of war. We call on the Secretary General of the United Nations to urgently convene an International Conference for Peace, to re-establish respect for international law, to guarantee mutual security and to commit all states to eliminate nuclear weapons, to reduce military spending in favour of investments to combat poverty and funding for the unarmed economy, for ecological transition, for decent work. Shared security must be ensured. Wars and weapons aim at victory over the enemy but do not lead to peace: they tend to become permanent and only cause new suffering for populations. Instead, peace must be won, law violated must be restored, shared security must be guaranteed. There is no just war, only peace is just. Armies make war, peoples make peace. Italy, the Constitution, civil society repudiate war. Together we demand that our institutions take up this peace agenda and work in every European and international forum for its full affirmation. CEASEFIRE NOW, NEGOTIATION FOR PEACE! UN convene an international peace conference Ban all nuclear weapons 
Edited by jamesbaldwin - October 16 2022 at 12:38 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 29452 |
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Posted: October 17 2022 at 02:56 |
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Banning Nuclear Weapons is a great sentiment but isn't ever going to happen. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle on that one.
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 18064 |
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Posted: October 17 2022 at 06:17 |
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Hi, I only have one thought. The megalomaniac that uses the atomic war, is going to be chased and killed and done away with really quick, regardless of who/where he is. So, in that sense, I want to see these monsters come alive sooner than later as they disguise themselves behind some curtains espousing some rhetoric that says absolutely nothing, except that the media and the public don't really know what it all means. Monsters are easier to get rid of, because everyone will be on them. And I have no doubt that no one in this world is immune to that anymore like they were for years. You know what? We need a fudging Lysistrata fighting wars again! Be it Russia or anywhere else! Edited by moshkito - October 17 2022 at 06:18 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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MortSahlFan
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Joined: March 01 2018 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 3075 |
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Posted: October 17 2022 at 08:26 |
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Have their been any anti-war protests? We can't depend on politicians, and have to put pressure on them. Everywhere I go, all I hear about is nuclear war, especially from my European friends, who seem very worried. I know many Americans who have been "preppin" every since the pandemic. I didn't think there would be a war, so my earlier thoughts of, "I can see things getting much worse, war, but nuclear annihiliation?" but all it takes is one little mistake. Sometimes it happens "in real life", where tension explodes after someone punches someone, then all the friends and enemies (allies/foes) jump in, and .. As mentioned above. We don't learn. We just find more efficient ways to killing each other. I definitely don't see Nuclear Arms Reduction, but the opposite, because countries don't want to end up like Iraq. And Iraq (and all the other countries) make it so the US has no room to talk about invasions, lies, WMDs, etc., so everything is f**ked up. |
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https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition
https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 18064 |
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Posted: October 17 2022 at 18:52 |
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Hi, It is similar in many aspects to everything here on PA. It won't help to put pressure on a politician (AKA Admin) and it gets nothing done, except maybe suspending someone for a few days! The thought, though, is that the whole thing is based on a top of the pop's idea, and that is the same "rule" that gets someone elected, right or wrong, with or without the rhetoric that says nothing ... say KAGA one more time ... like it wasn't before!
It's not like they did not have 2 incredibly destructive wars in the 20th Century that has left its marks on generations to come ... still! But the worst, is like to continue, as long as there is no alternative media to help folks understand the issues better. Everyone went for "Brexit" but no one even bothered saying that it was a plot by the folks that control the economy to make sure they could get further control of things, specially imports that they were not collecting from! AND still ... no one says anything while artists suffer from this process in England! We simply cannot continue on this style of misleading the public ... it's not even by guns anymore, it's by media that is owned by the same folks speaking. And you really think they are going to give you an opposing viewpoint? It's the same "media" that continually keeps giving us stupid stories about the monarchy ... why? ... they own the country along with so many other rich folks that own the land! And we find their parties and this and that so fascinating ... My only thoughts are ... we don't want to learn anything! We've given up to a status quo, regardless of if it being right or wrong.
Edited by moshkito - October 17 2022 at 18:55 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Lewian
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Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15149 |
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Posted: October 18 2022 at 05:08 |
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Obviously one can try to negotiate a ceasefire and then a peace, however the fundamental problem that is to be solved is this: It is clear that the Russians want to win parts of the Ukraine, and chances are they won't be happy with the Crimea alone, and they won't stop fighting until they have won more, probably all the parts that they have recently declared Russian based on their fake referenda. On the other hand handing over parts of the Ukraine to Russia will basically reward them for the invasion and may encourage them (or others) to do more of that kind. In Moldova, Georgia, Latvia... people are very worried about this, and probably also the people of Taiwan. Ultimately it is not up to the West to tell the Ukrainians (or the Russians) what to accept. Obviously the West can stop sending arms to the Ukraine, which ultimately in all likelihood will have the effect that the Russians will win part of the Ukraine, but then, for the reason stated above, this will probably not be the end of the story. A peace that makes the aggressor a winner is not a good peace, and will probably not last for long. So what is your suggestion here, Lorenzo?
Edited by Lewian - October 18 2022 at 05:09 |
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jamesbaldwin
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Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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Posted: October 19 2022 at 12:25 |
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The appeal remains vague. It calls for the restoration of international law, and at the same time for negotiations. Restoration of international legality may hint at total Russian withdrawal from invaded lands, including Crimea. But this is not possible. Guterrez: Mr. Putin, could you kindly withdraw from the Donbass and also from Crimea? Putin: okay, no problem, just ask nicely. Is that realistic? No. You can't achieve with manners, that is, with diplomacy, what you don't even achieve with war. A negotiation involves concessions. As I said months ago, the basis for negotiations could be: 1) recognition of Crimea as part of Russia. 2) referendum with international observers for the 4 regions of Donbass to choose between Russia and Ukraine, with immediate acceptance of the outcome 3) neutral Ukraine, not joining NATO, but joining EU 4) Signed peace pact of Russia to respect the borders of Ukraine and other Eastern European states. Putin does not accept these conditions? Neither does Zelensky. But that is precisely why you have peace conferences with mediators. One thing seems clear to me: in the short term, Ukraine has NO POSSIBILITY to take back the lands occupied by Russia, because the weapons shipped by NATO are not enough. And if Ukraine started firing missiles at Russian land, Putin could use nuclear weapons as well. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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King of Loss
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Joined: April 21 2005 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 16889 |
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Posted: November 04 2022 at 11:00 |
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Regardless of what people here think in terms of their opinions, it is my opinion that this war has changed the world forever. And in my honest opinion, not in a good way.
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bardberic
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Joined: November 02 2021 Location: PA, USA/Israel Status: Offline Points: 886 |
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Posted: November 05 2022 at 06:38 |
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A nuclear war is essentially an impossibility due to the balance of the world's powers and distribution of nuclear arms. It's too taboo that even if Putin wanted to launch a nuclear attack (and he doesn't) the people behind the launch would not agree to do it. I could go on and on about this, but I won't as it is pointless. All I will state is that the answer to one nuclear attack, even if it successfully goes through, is not another nuclear attack. There are other ways to de-nuclearize a country, largely through ballistic non-nuclear options, but in essentially every model a nuclear "war," per say, cannot actually happen.
Regarding WWIII, as long as the other countries directly stay out of the conflict, as they have, that, too, is a practical impossibility. There are still survivors from WWII and the fatigue from it still exists. As useless as the UN tends to be be, their existence is a massive power balance that will continue to keep the peace outside Eastern Europe. We're not close to a nuclear war, and WWIII won't happen. The only thing to fear are rising living costs and economic challenges that will continue to worsen due to global supply chain shortages and Russian sanctions. We're due for a recession soon... Edited by bardberic - November 05 2022 at 06:42 |
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bardberic
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Joined: November 02 2021 Location: PA, USA/Israel Status: Offline Points: 886 |
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Posted: November 05 2022 at 06:50 |
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Also, Noam Chomsky is a terrible resource to cite. He's not exactly a great political mind... he should stick with linguistics. I wouldn't take what he says seriously, tbh.
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 29452 |
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Posted: November 07 2022 at 03:38 |
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Nuclear war has always been close, apparently the number of times we were on the brink during the cold war days was a lot more than we'd like to believe. In terms of whether its any closer than it ever was is of course debateable. ''WWIII won't happen'' is not based on anything. It could actually have already started. WWII officially started in 1939 2 years before the US and Japan got directly involved. Before then it was primarily Europe and North Africa. I would suggest that Climate change is going to cause as many issues as this war. I have little confidence in anyone sorting that one out. Sunak was not even going to bother going to the summit in Egypt (quite sensible in my view) until domestic political pressure forced him to change his mind.
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Lewian
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Posted: November 07 2022 at 09:36 |
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Zelensky has pretty good reasons not to accept them. So somebody comes and violently grabs some of your country, and in exchange for peace you are asked to give them half of what they grabbed/they wanted? Referenda in the east of the Ukraine are an idea to be considered, but they are hard to do in a fair way as people have been forced to leave or have left because of fear, and those who vote may still have in mind in the first place the threat and only as an afterthought where they would like to belong.
Edited by Lewian - November 07 2022 at 09:39 |
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richardh wrote: