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The Notion of Originality: Arguments & Discussions
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Points: 15151 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 06:28
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There's nothing new under the sun. Most of the time.

As pretty much nothing is exactly equal to anything else, everything is new all the time, at least to some extent.
Also, all meaning depends on context, so if somebody does the same stuff that somebody else has done before in a new context (and all contexts are to some extent new), it's not the same anymore.

Regarding the term "original" it doesn't matter that much. Be it that nothing is new, be it that all is new, is doesn't  have much distinguishing power either way.


Edited by Lewian - March 17 2021 at 06:49
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Points: 15151 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 07:03
From my personal point of view, I can very well distinguish between what seems generic to me and what has an "original wow factor". I'd call things original that make an original impression on me, but of course I know that I don't know whether one can in fact find these ideas earlier elsewhere, and whether they 'd have impressed me in the same way, had I heard or seen the earlier version first. For my perception that's not very important, but of course I shouldn't use the word in a supposedly objective manner. Who am I to claim that I know all stuff? I may do it when I believe I know quite a bit, but it's always taking a risk.

Then, also claiming that something is "unoriginal" (based on not being of original interest to me) can go wrong, as I may miss some detail or context and may not get that there's actually more in it than what I find.  
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Points: 4506 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 15:27
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Hah! It could mean ‘an Einstein’ in the generic sense of a figure who leaves a lasting impression on his field. A Bach, an Aristotle, a Shakespeare, etc.


You were right, apparently. All the online sources have an "an" there.

I was wrong, probably because I last read Laurence Coupe's "Myth (The New Critical Idiom)", and that academician somehow omitted/removed that word; thus it appeared  misplaced to my eye. It is an academical book from Routledge, written by a notable professor! Who will we trust in this world? Confused

Anyway, here is Mr. Coupe's coup attempt to dethrone T.S. Eliot's original textLOL: 
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Points: 4506 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 15:38
I'll write a book series, that'll be 12 in total: from Einstein to Zwölfstein. Party
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Points: 4506 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2021 at 06:24
It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation. - Melville
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Points: 17966 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2021 at 08:41
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Hopefully we're discussing listenable music. LOL

Remember music is not music anymore.......
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Points: 18078 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2021 at 09:05
Hi,

This is a very difficult topic to discuss. The main reason why is because of the media and the very fact that we can hear so much these days, as to make it almost "impossible" to think or feel that you can create something original.

Having worked with actors on these things, I sincerely doubt that "originality" is something that you can bottle up, and it relies on each and every person for its interpretation and eventual showing. And here is the worst part of that ... the fact that we do not listen to music, or appreciate the arts, for what they are ... INSTEAD WE COMPARE THEM TO WHAT WE LIKE AND KNOW ... ignoring what we don't know, exclusively.

There was one example on one of Peter Brook's books about Keith Mitchell when he did King Lear ... and it was scary for many of us, and our ability to understand that is impossible given the listening habits we have here ... there is a repeat line in KL that has "here" said 4 times in a row, and PB said that Keith did over 200 performances and not once did he ever repeat himself ... each night when doing his thing.

AND THIS, speaks of something else that we do not believe to be "original" because we CAN'T FEEL IT, or UNDERSTAND IT ... we do not know how it was that he could do that, and on top of it how he could so easily match it every night to the rest of his words and performance ... and KM would say ... don't ask ... I don't know!

Mostly, what could be said was that he got into the character each night, and today is not yesterday and the use of the words would be different ... but since we do not know any "justification" or have any "understanding" of how it happened, we can not make up our minds about it ... and think it is just some weird this or that ... when it has more to do with the person's identification of the feeling in that moment than anything else.

This brings up a great point about "originality" that is over looked ... when we do not know or can not "feel" what it is that is going on, and this is a serious issue with listening to many foreign bands here at PA ... you don't understand what Vittorio, or Christian, or someone else is saying ... and it alienates you, because you feel left out ... meaning that the likelihood is that you do not like to feel apart from that music, but the band presented it in such a way that does separate you from it. 

"Originality", and specially when involved in the "newer" strands of artistic representation (not just music, which is the worst of the big 3 arts!), gets lost in the wording ... because many can not define it ... but we refuse to look at how Stravinsky dealt with it, how Picasso dealt with it, and how many others dealt with it during their time, when in essence their expression was "personal" (most important) and not something that everyone else does ... and obviously copies.

I have never felt that anyone copies anyone, although people here have the awful habit of comparing bands because they use the same instrument, which automatically makes them a "copy" of some (supposed) original group ... and that has a tendency to diminish the artist's work to just sound ... when all that instrument could do was sound like that.

Until such a time as we stop "comparing" stuff, and learn to appreciate ALL music, I sincerely doubt that we can achieve a nice and complete idea as to what we are really listening to ... and this is specially difficult when most folks are strictly using their "filters" for what they like and don't like ... and not giving the work a chance to live on its own.

But a consensus about this is hard ... because this is a social media crapper and I sincerely doubt that most folks can "forget" all that and say something constructive about the whole thing that makes sense, instead of personal comments ... which I think get really boring after a while.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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