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Other members of MOI underrated/uncredited? |
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Howard the Duck ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 12 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 168 |
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I've been thinking about how the original Mothers had some really talented musicians in their own right, but despite each member bringing a distinctive sound, and sometimes contributing to songwriting and lyrics, they're often forgotten in the wake of Zappa himself, and even he downplayed their contributions. For example, I read recently that Ray Collin's daughter (Ray had passed away recently, in the last few years, I believe) had said on Reddit that Ray always maintained that the majority of the lyrics on Absolutely Free were written by him and Roy Estrada. Somehow I don't really doubt it, because the tone is quite different from later Zappa lyrics, and even he admitted to turning to Ray after having no idea what to write for the melody to Duke of Prunes. I also feel that, from that point onwards, this was the lineup of the Mothers - and also other Zappa bands - which had
some of the most recognizable singers/players, and developed the
most in a very short time frame. It also helped that they performed during what I consider to largely be Zappa's compositional peak. I also think that when Ian Underwood joined he brought crazy arranging skills from his classical training, which allowed Frank to start writing even more complex material. Ian stuck with Frank through a ton of other lineup changes, but eventually get fed up with perceived lack of credit/royalties and left. I still feel like whether or not an Underwood appears on an album (either Ian or Ruth) will be a good indicator of how strong the album will be in the overall discography. George Duke also was a player who brought a ton of skill to the band, and I don't think Frank ever had as good an accompanist on the keys for his solos - either before or after. The Roxy band was also the last band (imo) that was looser musically, and had a bit more latitude in terms of performance and solos. I think the later bands were over-rehearsed, and tended to have way less freedom instrumentally - other than the rhythm section during all the endless guitar solos. So do you think that some of the bandmembers got overlooked in terms of ability?
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MacGyver can do a super guitar solo with a broom and an elastic band. Can you do better?
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TCat ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 07 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 11612 |
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I agree with what you said about Ian and Ruth Underwood. You can always be assured that there will be some stellar musicianship when one or both of them were involved. Ruth was one of the most amazing percussionists ever and never gets a lot of credit. Ian was an amazing multi-instrumentalist, especially on the keys and the sax, but at least he got one song with his name in the title. Of course, only the best musicians were allowed in FZ's band for extensive amounts of time, and the fact that the two of them were with Frank for a long period shows that FZ was impressed with them, but I can't blame them for feeling like they didn't get enough outside credit. Even out of those two, the one I'm most impressed with is Ruth though. She was able to get the band to perform "Black Page" and it's variations by teaching them note by note how to play it right. Otherwise, it would have never been performed correctly.
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Manuel ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13481 |
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Not only in the Mother of Invention, but in many other bands/artists also.
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Progosopher ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 12 2009 Location: Coolwood Status: Offline Points: 6472 |
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When you are only in it for the money you will step on and over a lot of people.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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miamiscot ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 23 2014 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 3625 |
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If Roy Estrada wrote "Brown Shoes Don't Make It"... ...actually that makes sense!
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Scott54 ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: October 06 2019 Location: fezqfez Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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If Roy Estrada wrote "Brown Shoes Don't Make It"... Edited by Scott54 - October 08 2019 at 15:44 |
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AFlowerKingCrimson ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18929 |
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Other than Frank the only other member of MOI I have heard of is Jimmy Carl Black but maybe that's just because he introduced himself on the albums.
Also, after the original incarnation of MOI there seemed to be a bit of a blur or thin line between Frank Zappa's backing band and the Mothers. I have heard of Ruth Underwood and others but didn't really know they were part of MOI until just now.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - October 06 2019 at 17:27 |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18064 |
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I have never thought that ANY of the musicians that FZ used in his groups, were not valuable, when almost all of them had bits and pieces that were their own bits in them, which kinda gives you an idea that FZ's ideas were not quite as well set in stone as we think and that a lot of stuff that was done came from the many different folks out there. And, in some ways, this shows in many places, where the different kinds of music and attitudes change from album to album, but still this bit is in there and then this bit is over here, and then that one bit is elsewhere ... and this kinda of came alive in the Roxy album/DVD when FZ uses George Duke's bit ... he probably dumped that bit in rehearsal over something else, and FZ's ears perked up on how to use it for something sooner or later ... and there it was. FZ gets a lot of credit, and I think his strength was the arranging of a lot of his music and how he combined the folks, which gave him, and them, a strength that is not found these days ... in most music, that just seems so commercially attached that it can't sound any different on the next album! SIDEBAR ... During his time, there were a lot of musicians that WANTED to play with FZ ... and I'm almost positive that it was not just for this or that or their knowledge of music, since it could be said that most of them in the very early days, were not exactly musically educated, and FZ kinda helped them learn a heck of a lot, REALLY FAST, which defined his ability as a "conductor" and "arranger", something that he is not given credit for as much as he is for his guitar, for example ... the rest of the music shows his talent, not just the guitar ... or his ability to let the other folks also work their magic. There was a story, by a DJ in Santa Barbara that was trying to interview FZ and talk to him, and he was a bit of a princess and stuck up, until the warm up for the band, which was something like 45 minutes of non stop continuous material, with no lyrics ... just a lot of flow of music that according to the DJ was absolutely astoundingly magnificent ... and then they left for the show ... in the end, FZ finally set down for a yak ... and he asked how he liked the show ... "it was sh*t". And FZ knew that he was had. The rest of the story was specially great from that moment on, btw! I think that towards the late 70's and early 80's when the rock/pop audiences started showing up, that the whole thing suffered some and I think that FZ never really enjoyed the fact that he just simply wanted one night of total freedom and no audience (so to speak) and just play freely ... without anyone knowing anything and just let the musicians play ... but I am convinced, that something like this scares audiences ... and the days of the Fillmore were long gone ... and the real problem was ... in those days we were so stoned we didn't care ... now it was like ... not as stoned and we want our favorite music! FZ was likely not the only one to have this issue ... I would say that even in King Crimson, the same thing took place and ... sadly, in the end, it was OK with them all, because the memories and the results were magnificent ... but you know that some freedoms were not there ... according to Bill Bruford, who later went on stage with many folks without a plan and still did a great show! But, you're not going to get a "progressive music" audience there I bet ... because everyone is going ... what is that?
Edited by moshkito - October 07 2019 at 17:56 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Awesoreno ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 07 2019 Location: Culver City, CA Status: Offline Points: 3079 |
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I know this is post-Mothers, but I feel like I don't hear enough about how the BRECKER BROTHERS played with him in 1976 (at least in NYC, as documented on Zappa in New York). Don Pardo gets all this attention (as he should), yet the Brecker brothers get such a lackluster reception. Frank himself doesn't even really mention how special it is to have them. I suppose they were not as famous at that time as they were going to be in the 80s, and I assume most of the audience was not filled with jazz buffs and buffettes. However, this is a fact that, as of right now to me, seems a little overlooked.
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
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Artie Tripp has often claimed that Zappa stole a lot of his ideas from Don Preston. You can read more about the early band and criticisms of Zappa starting on page 184 of this book.
https://books.google.com/books?id=BW1Jom4nswwC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=artie+tripp+claims+zappa+ripped+off+don+preston&source=bl&ots=etCF5fD-v |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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