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Paravion 
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 Topic: Over/underrated?
Posted: July 06 2011 at 09:53 |
Inspired by this sentence
 lazland wrote:
Overrated & underrated are extraordinarily overrated words on this forum. |
written in one of those ridiculous over/underrated discussions.
This poll is mainly for fun, but not just for fun - hence in this section.
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 09:57 |
Voted for "overrated and underrated are overrated", while being perfectly aware of the paradox this implies. 
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Dean
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 10:11 |
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I think they are both about right in that if something is overrated or underrated then one must ask, in relation to what exactly? Of course in most cases it is simply in realtion to itself rather than to some normalised average or idealised mean so that the overrating ro underrating is a measure of perceived reception rather than any quantifiable maxim or derivative criteria or standard benchmark, ergo any observation that regards an assessment or rating as being above or below some notional norm is in reality a formative variable scoping. In the larger connotation relevant progression can be disseminated through the intrinsic statistical differences that would render the question as being self-addressing in the wider scheme of things, albeit on a much reduced scale. At least, that's how I see it.
Edited by Dean - July 06 2011 at 11:08
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What?
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 10:53 |
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34,450 self opinionated members can't be wrong surely?
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TheGazzardian
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 11:20 |
Dean wrote:
I think they are both about right in that if something is overrated or underrated then one must ask, in relation to what exactly? Of course in most cases it is simply in realtion to itself rather than to some normalised average or idealised mean so that the overrating ro underrating is a measure of perceived reception rather than any quantifiable maxim or derivative criteria or standard benchmark, ergo any observation that regards an assessment or rating as being above or below some notional norm is in reality a formative variable scoping. In the larger connotation relevant progression can be disseminated through the intrinsic statistical differences that would render the question as being self-addressing in the wider scheme of things, albeit on a much reduced scale. At least, that's how I see it. |
Once again, the topic is won by ... DEAN!!!! 
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lazland
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 12:45 |
Dean wrote:
I think they are both about right in that if something is overrated or underrated then one must ask, in relation to what exactly? Of course in most cases it is simply in realtion to itself rather than to some normalised average or idealised mean so that the overrating ro underrating is a measure of perceived reception rather than any quantifiable maxim or derivative criteria or standard benchmark, ergo any observation that regards an assessment or rating as being above or below some notional norm is in reality a formative variable scoping. In the larger connotation relevant progression can be disseminated through the intrinsic statistical differences that would render the question as being self-addressing in the wider scheme of things, albeit on a much reduced scale. At least, that's how I see it. |
Your Honour, I give way to my learned friend. There is nothing I could possibly add to this 
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Peter
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 12:49 |
I dislike the words, and how they are far too often arrogantly used here. Both basically equate to "they are all wrong." Thus, the terms are less an indicator of one's own taste, as they are a negative judgement upon the tastes of others. One effectively says "you are wrong to like this," the other "you are wrong not to like this." If you like or dislike something, fine -- just say so. But don't disparage others' tastes when they differ from yours. Wine is popular, but I don't like wine. Does it follow that wine is "overrated" (and beer "underrated")? Obviously not.
Edited by Peter - July 06 2011 at 17:33
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 13:00 |
As Dean indicates, if there is a widely accepted, objective criteria with which to judge the thing that is "rated," then the terms can rightly be used. For example, Saddam Hussein's vaunted Republican Guard were overrated, in light of the ease with which they were defeated. An athlete or political candidate might be overrated/underrated (literally, via odds makers or pollsters) if they then don't perform as expected, etc. But there is no, valid, objective criteria with which to judge the reception of art -- it's purely subjective. Different works/types of art appeal to different people, in differing amounts. You like hip hop, but I don't. There is no right or wrong -- we are both "right" and both "wrong."
Art needs an audience in order for it to "live" -- the song doesn't really exist, as such, until someone is listening to it. We HAVE to bring ourselves to our reception of art, and that reception is inescapably clouded by/filtered through our own unique, individual taste (which is shaped by many random factors). Ask a songwriter what his song "means" and he will often reply "you tell me," because lyrics (as with images, sounds, etc.) can have different associations for different people.  Still, it is popular usage, not original or literal meaning, which ultimately drives and determines word meanings. (For example, consider the evolution of "gay" from happy, to homosexual, to dumb.) If most people continue to use the words to mean only "I don't/do like," then that is what they will eventually mean, and a literal analysis of the terms will not point to their current meaning.
Edited by Peter - July 06 2011 at 13:20
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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JJLehto
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 15:56 |
Nothing is rated Since that is the most prog answer. It's an answer that is another we love to overuse here....pretentious  Peter! Shouldn't be surprised the time I see you back is in a thread involving the English language 
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Paravion
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Joined: May 01 2010
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 16:04 |
TheGazzardian wrote:
Once again, the topic is won by ... DEAN!!!! |
Can one win a topic? 
Anyway -
Dean wrote:
I think they are both about right in that if something is overrated or underrated then one must ask, in relation to what exactly? |
Yes.
Dean wrote:
Of course in most cases it is simply in realtion to itself... |
what 'it' and what 'itself'? - the anaphoric references are not clear to me.
Dean wrote:
...rather than to some normalised average or idealised mean so that the overrating ro underrating is a measure of perceived reception rather than any quantifiable maxim or derivative criteria or standard benchmark, ergo any observation that regards an assessment or rating as being above or below some notional norm is in reality a formative variable scoping. |
So an expression that something is over/underrated has in actual PA language-use the same meaning-content as expressions covering that "something is liked (underrated)" and that "something is disliked" (overrated)? That is probably correct, but a rather unfortunate and inconsiderate use of language.
Peter wrote:
If you like or dislike somethihng, fine -- just say so. But don't disparage others' tastes when they differ from yours. Wine is popular, but I don't like wine. Does it follow that wine is "overrated" (and beer "underrated")? Obviously not. |
That's pretty much my thoughts.
Peter wrote:
Still, it is popular usage, not original or literal meaning, which ultimately drives and determines word meanings. (For example, consider the evolution of "gay" from happy, to homosexual, to dumb.) If most people continue to use the words to mean only "I don't/do like," then that is what they will eventually mean, and a literal analysis of the terms will not point to their current meaning. |
It is correct that meaning is use - and one can speculate that the popularity of the terms in question has arisen out of boredom of using the standard terms for (dis)liking - but the thing is, that it's questionable whether the terms over/underrated are ready to be deliberated from literal meaning when taking a larger group of language-users than the PA-community into consideration. The terms can't really escape the prefixes 'over' and 'under' (which viewed as prepositions in isolation aren't likely to undergo an alternation in meaning content). It seems that whoever uses the terms may just be expressing (dis)like, but such a poster inevitably gives the impression, by consequence of the use of words, that (s)he thinks that there are albums/bands that are in fact over/underrated in a (more or less) literal sense.
Edited by Paravion - July 06 2011 at 16:07
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Dean
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 16:58 |
Paravion wrote:
TheGazzardian wrote:
Once again, the topic is won by ... DEAN!!!!
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Can one win a topic?
Anyway -
Dean wrote:
I think they are both about right in that if something is overrated or underrated then one must ask, in relation to what exactly? |
Yes.
Dean wrote:
Of course in most cases it is simply in realtion relation to itself... |
what 'it' and what 'itself'? - the anaphoric references are not clear to me. |
I can't think of another way of putting it - if only one album of music ever existed in the whole world and even the thought that another could ever exist was an impossible thought, then there would still be some people who would say that album was overrated and some people who would say it was underrated, therefore that album would be over or underrated relative to itself since no other album exists.
Paravion wrote:
Dean wrote:
...rather than to some normalised average or idealised mean so that the overrating ro underrating is a measure of perceived reception rather than any quantifiable maxim or derivative criteria or standard benchmark, ergo any observation that regards an assessment or rating as being above or below some notional norm is in reality a formative variable scoping. |
So an expression that something is over/underrated has in actual PA language-use the same meaning-content as expressions covering that "something is liked (underrated)" and that "something is disliked" (overrated)? That is probably correct, but a rather unfortunate and inconsiderate use of language. |
I think it is more than that - for example it is possible to be ambivelant towards something and still say it is overrated, moreover it is possible to actually like something and still regard it as overrated. I don't see the terms over and underrated as being synonymous with dislke and like of something but more as a reflection of perceived popularity as a negative measure - and it is a value-measure, but one with out quanta or units - except of course, that is also not strictly accurate either since while it is possible that some people will dislike something because it is popular and thus regard it as overrated and there are others who just do not understand how something can be popular because they do not like it, there will still be those who like it and dislike the idea of it being popular. That last instance is possibly the one used here at PA more than any other - the rating is not of the album but of the number of people who like the album - the elitist appeal of liking something obscure wanes when it becomes popular while the content of what is being liked hasn't changed.
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What?
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topographicbroadways
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 17:11 |
THIS IS OVERRATED RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE
I have been author of several of these threads. And have no difficulty at this point saying that they are f**king ridiculous
Edited by topographicbroadways - July 06 2011 at 17:11
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 17:49 |
Just logged on after reading some Foucault - and this discussion is perhaps the final straw - that finally makes my head implode . Went with the option that says both terms are overrated though(kind of a paradox as Harmonium pointed out), because I find they, far too often, lower the discussions down to a kinder-garden level.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Peter
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 18:09 |
Another way to interpret "under/overrated" is "you should all be more like me." In other words, "you should not be you." Unless an artist is making art only for himself, then surely art "succeeds" when it finds an appreciative audience -- people who "get" something from it, whom it "speaks" to, who derive some pleasure from it. If a given piece of art is enjoyed by many, but not me, then who am I to effectively say they are all wrong? All I can truthfully say is that they are different than me, and thus they perceive/receive the art differently. Case in point: death metal genuinely makes me feel displeasure. I find it grating in the extreme -- when I am hearing it, I wish that I wasn't. Yet many people genuinely derive pleasure from death metal!  Do I underrate it? Do they overrate it? No, we just have very different tastes, because (I assume) we are very different in some relevant aspects of our personalities. Behind those personality differences could be many factors (like age, life history, culture, social class, genetics, self esteem, belief systems, etc) which are largely beyond the control of the individual. To expect all others to be like me, that is, to think like me, perceive like me and react like me would be to expect a world that is the same everywhere, populated by people who are all very much the same. Maybe that uniformity could exist with animals, or in some "heaven" with angels, but it cannot exist on earth with human beings. Thanks if you managed to read all of that!  I just find this whole issue of taste to be very interesting, and at the root of what it means to be human, self aware, and an individual.
Edited by Peter - July 06 2011 at 18:17
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 18:15 |
Peter wrote:
Case in point: death metal genuinely makes me feel displeasure. I find it grating in the extreme -- when I am hearing it, I wish that I wasn't.  Yet many people genuinely derive pleasure from death metal. Do I underrate it? Do they overrate it? No, we just have very different tastes, because (I assume) we are very different in some relevant aspects of our personalities. Behind those personality differences could be many factors (like age, life history, social class, genetics, self esteem, belief systems, etc) which are largely beyond the control of the individual. To expect all others to be like me, think like me, perceive like me and react like me would be to expect a world that is the same everywhere, populated by people who are all the same. Maybe that uniformity could exist with animals, or in some "heaven" with angels, but it cannot exist on earth with human beings. |
If only the people posting in the "Worst Album On PA" thread would think like you... 
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manofmystery
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 21:20 |
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The real problem with the forum is the lack of "x-rated"
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 Time always wins.
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Jim Garten
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Posted: July 07 2011 at 02:43 |
Peter wrote:
Case in point: death metal genuinely makes me feel displeasure. I find it grating in the extreme |
At which point, do you think, should I inform my good friend Peter (whom I look forward to seeing again next week) my iPad contains the complete works of Opeth...?? 
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Padraic
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Posted: July 07 2011 at 09:45 |
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Peter
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Posted: July 07 2011 at 09:49 |
^ No fear, Padraic -- mine contains lots of soothing folk -- and I own the docking station!
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Finnforest
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Posted: July 07 2011 at 10:02 |
I really don’t have a problem with people using those terms so long as they’re not outwardly snotty about it. I’m not offended by it. They’re just commenting on an overall, average number. They are not necessarily judging other raters or saying those raters are wrong, as some suggest, they are simply giving their personal reaction to that big number. Their opinion of that number seems as valid as their opinion of the album’s production or music.
Really, if they give Foxtrot 2 stars, by their very act of giving it that rating it they are telling you they think it’s over-rated. Why is the word so objectionable, when a person’s rating implies the same information?
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Over/underrated?
