How progressive was Mozart and why?

paganinio wrote: Educate me please. IMO the majority of Mozart's music (that I heard) is: 1. boring, 2. too tender, 3. causing me to fall asleep, 4. conservative (not sure about this one, but why else would it sound so boring and tender?) 5. old-fashioned (I can't help but feel this. The fact that Bach was much more exciting than Mozart should tell us something, right?).   6. too peaceful, I mean, where's the CONFLICT?? Beethoven is to Beatles what Mozart is to Elvis or some swing pop/R&B singer. (very roughly)   7. too soft. If Beethoven were Hard Rock, Mozart would be Soft Rock. You don't see many soft rock fans on this forums do you? However Mozart manages to get away with writing soft music.

you have to see every musician in his time. if you think Mozart was tender you have not heard much of him; a lot of his works were very progressive for the time, like his Dissonanzenquartett, which for modern ears does not appear to be dissonant at all, but for the time it was written in was extremely dissonant.
and have you ever heard "Don Giovanni"? in my honest opinion the most complete opera ever; every aspect of human life is in it. what's more, Mozart makes fun of all people with his music, and his librettist Lorenzo da Ponte is a congenial partner.
here links to YouTube videos of the Dissonanzenquartett, with the Alban berg quartet playing it:

1st movement: http://tinyurl.com/opsrz9
2nd movement: http://tinyurl.com/phdhfc
3rd movement: http://tinyurl.com/png48n
4th movement: http:// tinyurl.com/p9vb5z

but Mozart was also very progressive in the form of his music; he expanded the concept of symphony which Haydn had created, especially in his later symphonies. he explored chromatic harmony to a degree which was very rare at his time, and many of his piano concerts were very innovative too. just listen to his piano conceerto no. 24, which is quite dark.

1st movement (part 1): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiA4R7RjiqQ
1st movement (part 2): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTCyi1k37QM
2nd movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSAW_HeW5Bs
3rd movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ3W363-56E

certainly even a person who is unfamiliar with classical music can hear how dark this concerto is.

his symphony in g-minor (KV 550) is very dark too.

1st movement: http://tinyurl.com/pxbwr4
2nd movement: http://tinyurl.com/q63bwl
3rd movement: http://tinyurl.com/qov7bw
4th movement: http://tinyurl.com/r4svfq

I know there are some people who mistake the first movement for hapopy music; they should listen again. this is dark stuff. the beginning of the symphony is very progressive; it starts with the accompaniment and not with the first theme, which was highly unusual at that time. just one example of Mozart's progressiveness.

the problem with Mozart is: although there are a lot of rough edges in his music, there has been a tendency to soften them, especially by the Wiener Philharmoniker. although they are a very famous orchestra, don't listen to them when they play Mozart; they sweeten him to no end. they have a kind of "Unser süßer Wolferl" ("Our sweet Wollferl") mentality which ruins their renditions





Edited by BaldJean - August 15 2009 at 08:47

paganinio wrote: However Mozart manages to get away with writing soft music.

Yeah, that should never be permitted.  Soft music is so awful and boring.

I noticed you didn't use the term bland.  I'm not a huge fan of Wolfgang, but I'd have to take serious issue with that if you did.

Have you ever been hit in the head with a soft rock?

That just brought back a memory of a family visit to Disneyworld many many years ago.  I remember a gift shop where the had these fake chunks of granite that were actually made of foam.  I didn't get one, but I did get a werewolf mask, or maybe that was at the Ripley's believe it or not museum, but I do digress...


Edited by Slartibartfast - August 22 2009 at 00:37

It is not unreasonable to think of Mozart as a pop musician

Why would Beethoven be hard rock? Hard rock is terrible.

Edited by mystic fred - August 22 2009 at 02:14

BaldJean wrote: Atavachron wrote: It is not unreasonable to think of Mozart as a pop musician Mozart was the first composer who decided to work free-lance; all other composers wrote their compositions because some noblemen had ordered them. Mozart was the first to try making a living by composing first and then trying to find someone who was interested in it. that does not mean he did not write compositions for which he had a request, but he was the first who broke the boundaries. that alone makes him very progressive. anyone who thinks Mozart was soft should listen to the sound examples I gave. just listening to "Don Giovanni" alone should blow that opinion to pieces. for those who are not familiar withn the opera: at the beginning of the second act Don Giovanni invited the statue of the commendatore (whom he killed at the beginning of the opera) to join him for dinner, and the statue now appears. there are several clips of that scene on YouTube; it is interesting to compare them; in one version you don't even see the handshake. take your pick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IptAkeiLzwU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK1_vm0FMAU&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue72gvJvpi8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jATcM8X29zc&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hf9z0qoE50&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH4gJWCV-8U&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JStPRk62QdI&feature=related if this is soft to you your ears need a cleansing

it is not unreasonable to think of Mozart as a pop musician

"Requiem" is pretty dark, I hear Crimson influences here and there, but very little in his music reminds me of Gabriel-era Genesis and nothing of Dream Theater, so I don't know how progressive Mozart is. 

could you guys please say innovative or creative instead of progressive?

I don't think Mozart was all that different from his contemporaries. In fact they weren't progressive (innovative, creative...) as they returned to earlier classicism, ignoring much of the innovation and depth of for instance Bach. Some of that man's stuff even sounds chromatic (I didn't check, it just sounds more daring)

That being said Mozart is awesome (judgement based on his symphonies and piano concertos)

^ Great we actually have people here who really know their stuff, I'm just a goof going by my what my ears and my heart tell me.
Interesting reading, thanks.