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topofsm 
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 Topic: People's problems with growling
Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:11 |
As a fan of metal, it's basically a given that I listen to music with harsh vocals. Growling, screaming, shreiking, shouting, pig squeals, it's all there. For the general public, it's very hard to stomach, which is very understandable. I really don't care if people don't like harsh vocals, to each their own.
But what really irks me is how people say it's an easy way out. I find proper growls to be some of the most difficult sounds to produce. I sing in choirs, and made regional choir, and was a lead role in a spring musical this year, so I know how to sing, but growls is something I have yet to master. Every time I try I know I'm doing it wrong because it bothers my throat so I immediately stop.
Second, It doesn't sound like an excuse not to write a melody. You cannot achieve a brutal timbre with the voice by singing, simple as that. Do people think that snare, cymbals, triangle, gong, bass drums, castanets, tambourine, or wood blocks in symphonic or classical music is an excuse to have more sound without melody? I simply wouldn't think so.
As a vocal style, growls are hard to appreciate and will never be enjoyed by the majority. But it should be generally understood that they are difficult to pull off.
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Man With Hat
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:23 |
My main issue with them is that I can't understand what the singer is trying to say when he is growling.
Perhaps its because I favor instrumental music to that with lyrics, but I view lyrics as a bonus to any song. However, if I can't understand what is being said it takes whatever extra the lyrics give me away. And, for me, it really doesn't add anything to the song. I rather have some electronic equipment or an instrument make brutal timbres. But again, I prefer the instrumental side. (And I'm not a real metal head either) Now if you just have a voice making all sorts of various sounds thats another story.
Having said that, I don't discount growling. Its a viable augmentation to the human voice that could give a song a different feel. Of course if its everywhere things could get a bit...stagnant and/or monotonous for my tastes. Moderation is the key for me. (Actually its probably more variety is the key for me...but...)
And its way better than that metalcore style screaming.  |
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JLocke
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:27 |
I think for a lot of people, if someone growls, it must means they can't actually sing or carry a tune, and therefore shows lack of talent. This is sometimes true, however even when someone cannot sing 'properly', the growling noise as you said takes a lot of talent and/or skill in its own right. I had a stepfather once who shared this false belief that all growlers couldn't sing, so I popped in an Opeth CD for him to listen to, and boy was he shocked when I told him it was the same singer on both songs (One soft and one heavy). 
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JLocke
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:29 |
 Man With Hat wrote:
My main issue with them is that I can't understand what the singer is trying to say when he is growling. |
This argument has never made sense to me. Can you honestly understand everything traditional singers are saying when you first listen to their music? I think not. Especially the older 'classic' stuff; sounds like they are singing into a pillow.
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Equality 7-2521
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:38 |
Saying that growlers only growl because they can't carry a tune isn't a valid criticism of growling. Gilmour has admitted that his technical limitations forced him to solo a certain way, however his playing remains fantastic regardless of the fact that certain more difficult techniques are not available to him.
I think people have a problem with it just because they have a problem with change in general. I think it's particularly worse in vocals than in other aspects of music because singing tends to be something everyone does from a very early age and become incredibly familiar with.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JLocke
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:45 |
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The sooner we stop looking at growling and singing as the same thing, the better off everybody will be. They are totally different styles of vocalizing.
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The Pessimist
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:59 |
topofsm wrote:
But what really irks me is how people say it's an easy way out. I find proper growls to be some of the most difficult sounds to produce. I sing in choirs, and made regional choir, and was a lead role in a spring musical this year, so I know how to sing, but growls is something I have yet to master. Every time I try I know I'm doing it wrong because it bothers my throat so I immediately stop. |
I here you man. I get that all the time, and growling is just as hard as singing. Similar technique actually. I can growl myself (or at least I think I can) and it's now taken me about 6 months to get a decent sound, and yet I still haven't mastered it. You also get different pitches of growls, i.e. tenor, bass and the occassional alto. Apparently I'm a bass, which I'm more than happy about because now I can growl along to Nile, which is better than sex 
topofsm wrote:
Second, It doesn't sound like an excuse not to write a melody. You cannot achieve a brutal timbre with the voice by singing, simple as that. Do people think that snare, cymbals, triangle, gong, bass drums, castanets, tambourine, or wood blocks in symphonic or classical music is an excuse to have more sound without melody? I simply wouldn't think so. |
I always thought of grwoling as a percussive musical device. It's not all entirely rhythm based either. Growling does have pitch, look at what Mikael Akerfeldt does with his voice in Demon Of The Fall. Then again, this whole thing is an age old prejudice. Ever wondered why ignorant musicians make jokes about drums not being a real instrument? Same with growls. We will always have those people though.
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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TGM: Orb
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 21:02 |
| You cannot achieve a brutal timbre with the voice by singing, simple as that. |
Wouldn't agree with this. It's rare, and it's subtler, but it does happen. Peter Hammill's vocals on Arrow or Modern, for instance, have an incredibly raw and aggressive sound, and yet the melody and nuances in them are plain to hear. Francesca di Giacomo's vocals on Miserere Alla Storia are another such example.
| Then again, this whole thing is an age old prejudice. Ever wondered why
ignorant musicians make jokes about drums not being a real instrument?
Same with growls. |
I don't question the technical requirements of growling (and even to my relatively apathetic ears, there are some whose growls seem to work much better on a musical level, or at least which feel more natural than others), nor do I particularly mind it. However, I just don't see the aggression or the mood of it at all; surely, if the point of it is to convey aggression or harshness, that's a serious failing? Additionally it does seriously obscure the lyrics, which'd undermine the point of having either decent/intelligent or appropriately 'brutal' lyrics to fit it. So; to summarize, my point isn't that growling is completely worthless, but rather that people like myself actually have reasons other than OMGIdn'tliektehbr00talz to look upon growling skeptically.
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stonebeard
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 21:42 |
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If Opeth's Ghost Reveries had no growls on it, it wouldn't have 10% of the effect. I assume anyone who makes that argument yells at kids on the street and has long ago gone far too deaf to have a valid opinion on anything related to music.
Edited by stonebeard - July 28 2009 at 21:43
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Failcore
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:11 |
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I don't mind growls when used appropriately, but I hate when they are used to the exclusion of all other vocals, esp when it doesn't fit with the mood or subject matter. For too many bands its just a gimmicky device. However, it can also be used quite effectively as well. I love the growls the Opeth guy did on Day 12 from THE.
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persecutionmania
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:15 |
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I dare anyone to listen to converge's jane doe or the new magrudergrind cd and tell me that actual singing would sound better for these two badass albums. I love all types of music but I grew up worshipping napalm death so I've got 14 years of experience in knowing what good growling, squeeling, etc, is.
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JLocke
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:17 |
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Logan
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:21 |
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I tend not to appreciate the aesthetics of growling/ grunting. It's not a noise that appeals to me.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:21 |
p0mt3 wrote:
The sooner we stop looking at growling and singing as the same thing, the better off everybody will be. They are totally different styles of vocalizing.
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Edited by Slartibartfast - July 28 2009 at 22:52
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topofsm
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:23 |
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I like how Opeth's the only band that's been brought up here, though really I have to admit I have yet to hear with a really brutal growl from another progressive band, though now that I think of it Demon Carcass from The Faceless is actually just as deep and brutal
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Logan
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:25 |
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persecutionmania
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:27 |
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Gorguts' Obscura being sung not screamed would be ridiculous and that album to me is as progressive as metal can be.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:52 |
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I thought this thread could use a nice growling pic.
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 28 2009 at 23:54
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Logan
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:55 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
I thought this thread could use a nice growling pic.
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It beats suffering a growler wanna-be.
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A Person
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 23:36 |
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People's problems with growling
