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Topic ClosedWould you consider Genesis "virtuosos"?

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SilverEclipse View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Would you consider Genesis "virtuosos"?
    Posted: August 28 2008 at 10:20
I'm not sure, after listening to a ton of Yes and ELP, I can't say that I think Genesis are anywhere as near as talented on any of the respective instruments, I think their progressiveness comes more from the song structure and themes.  
"and if the band your in starts playing different tunes, I'll see you on the dark side of the moon"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2008 at 10:59

Why wouldn't you consider a virtuoso a guy who:

  1. Adapted a guitar performing technique, to Rock
  2. who topped the Classic Chars despite being a ock musicians
  3. Who is a respected Jazz perormer in a very pedantic scenario
  4. Who is credited as a major influence by almost every guitar wizard
  5. Who has more than 30 outstanding Rock, Prog, Classic, Flamenco and Jazz albums
  6. Who has been praised by Yehudi Menuhim (The most representative NUSICIAN of the 20 Century)

Or a keybnoardist who

  1. Also topped the Classical charts performing his instrument (Deven)
  2. Practically defined how a Mellotron should sound
  3. Influenced a whole genre
  4. Who plays the keyboards in Apolaypse in 9/8

Or a drummer who

  1. Is in every Prog, Pop a,d even soime Fusionlists

Or a singer who despite some range lijmits.

  1. Influenced more singers than anybody
  2. Managed to release about 10 excellent albums
  3. Is redspected by the elitist Pr0og and mainstream audience

Or a bass player

  1. Who always did the correct thing while playing in a band
  2. Was a pioneer and definer of the Moog Taurus Bass Pedal

I do consider all of the virtuoso musicians.

Genesis was not a solo based band, it was a team of virtuoso musicians who decided o leave their egos behind when playing for the band.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2008 at 11:03
Question
Originally posted by SilverEclipse SilverEclipse wrote:

I'm not sure, after listening to a ton of Yes and ELP, I can't say that I think Genesis are anywhere as near as talented on any of the respective instruments, I think their progressiveness comes more from the song structure and themes.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2008 at 11:06
Mike Rutherford is a very talented bass player and also a 12 string guitar.
 
Tony Banks have the guts to prove himself in several Genesis tracks, try: solo organ in Musical Box, Solo Piano intro in Fifth or Filth, solo piano in Mad Man Moon, and many more.
 
Steve Hackett are one of the most underrated guitarrist but he do some extraordinary solos in Genesis and in solo albums.
 
Check Collins work in Brand X
 
After that hope that changes your mind about.  




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2008 at 11:11
Originally posted by SilverEclipse SilverEclipse wrote:

I think their progressiveness comes more from the song structure and themes.  


What I find odd about this particular statement is that every progressive band's "progressiveness" comes from song structure and themes - simply being very talented at playing your instrument has nothing to do with it.

Despite preferring ELP and Yes to Genesis, to me it's no question that all the members of Genesis were superb musicians who excelled at their craft.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2008 at 11:37
I'd say that most of them are virtuosos (Hackett, Howe, Wakeman, Banks, Emerson etc) but the technicality in their music is not quite on the same level as some of the music which was dubbed "shred" in the 80s, or as some of the fusion stuff which was also popular at the time (John McLaughlin, Al Di Meola).

In the end virtuosity is only one facet of the musician anyway ... I admire musicians who really mastered their instrument, but they don't have to wear this ability like a crown in order to get my attention.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 03:05
Hmm I dunno. They're all very good musicians especially Hackett and Collins, but I'm not sure if they're virtuoso level. I suppose they are, at least the two I mentioned.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 04:17
This is a tricky little question.
I think it's fair to say that Genesis didn't set out to play purposely difficult-to-play, extremely technical music, ala ELP, Dream Theater etc. But that's not to say they're not virtuosos. I'll use Banks as the best example. There's no way his solos sound as tecnical, fast or flashy as Wakeman or Emerson. However, more often than not they're more attractive, ie, Cinema Show.
So, yes I think the Genesis guys are/were virtuosos, it's just that they don't show off as much as some others.
( Incidentally, nothing against show-offs, I love pretentious over the top music, ELP, Yes, DT etc )
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 04:21
Originally posted by SilverEclipse SilverEclipse wrote:

I'm not sure, after listening to a ton of Yes and ELP, I can't say that I think Genesis are anywhere as near as talented on any of the respective instruments, I think their progressiveness comes more from the song structure and themes.  
 
Well, Gabriel is certainly a virtuoso singer compared to either Lake or Anderson, that's for sure - and a virtuoso songwriter/lyricist to boot.
 
As far as "talented" on the instruments is concerned, that totally depends on where you think the talent lies.
 
Tony Banks is a far superior keyboard player to Emerson, Kaye, Moraz, Wakeman (or any other keyboard player that Yes have had). He doesn't go for the bluster of Emerson or Wakeman, and as a result, his compositions and performances are more accurate, more melodic, and often more understatedly complex. The biggest point in his favour is that he wrote solos to suit the songs, rather than to suit the performer.
 
The piece "Firth of Fifth" sums it up really.
 
Lake isn't a bad bass player, but I wouldn't call him virtuoso - or in any way better than Rutherford. Squire, I would concede, is better than both at creating powerful and interesting bass lines - which is the meat and two veg of a bass player's job.
 
Hackett has his own incomparable style, and has brought about some technical innovations, such as two-handed tapping - comparing him to Howe is comparing chalk and cheese. I'd rather hear a short and melodic rock solo from Hackett than a long, widdly Howe solo with classical pretensions.
 
 
 
 
Palmer and Collins likewise have very different styles, and I'd be hard pushed to choose between them - maybe Palmer by a whisker in the technical department, but Collins is an incredibly expressive drummer, and I prefer his style overall. Bruford is no slouch either, and I guess, neither is White. But I would still prefer to listen to a Collins solo.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 04:24

Might have been, that they didn't start out as virtuosos, no-one did. but they did play great music. Virtuosity doesn't only come from great technique. Gabriel might not have been the best flute player in the worls, and I sure have heard better singers, but he was a good writer. As were the rest. Of all of these I like to think that in the beginning Banks and Collins were the best in technical sense. Think about Anyway. I hear Banks wrote it really young. Collins is amazing on songs such as The Fountain of Salmacis.

Actually to think of it, I've grown quite bored of ELP and Yes. Also bands who boast with their virtuosity are rather boring at times, like Dream Theater (Dont shoot me).



Edited by Passionist - August 29 2008 at 04:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 04:45
Originally posted by Passionist Passionist wrote:

Might have been, that they didn't start out as virtuosos, no-one did. but they did play great music. Virtuosity doesn't only come from great technique. Gabriel might not have been the best flute player in the worls, and I sure have heard better singers, but he was a good writer. As were the rest. Of all of these I like to think that in the beginning Banks and Collins were the best in technical sense. Think about Anyway. I hear Banks wrote it really young. Collins is amazing on songs such as The Fountain of Salmacis.

Actually to think of it, I've grown quite bored of ELP and Yes. Also bands who boast with their virtuosity are rather boring at times, like Dream Theater (Dont shoot me).



*Shooting you*

Although veering slightly off topic, but I actually think Dream Theater are very tasteful with the way they use their technical abilities. Their is far more riffs than solos, and certainly plenty of space for vocals.
Heck, Dream Theater don't even have solos on all their songs like some metal bands do.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 04:48
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I'd say that most of them are virtuosos (Hackett, Howe, Wakeman, Banks, Emerson etc) but the technicality in their music is not quite on the same level as some of the music which was dubbed "shred" in the 80s, or as some of the fusion stuff which was also popular at the time (John McLaughlin, Al Di Meola).

In the end virtuosity is only one facet of the musician anyway ... I admire musicians who really mastered their instrument, but they don't have to wear this ability like a crown in order to get my attention.


Pretty much agree with this statement.

I would say, perhaps Hackett is a virtuoso, but he is not a virtuoso on the electric guitar nor the classical guitar, but because he is equally well rounded on both he is a general guitar virtuoso based on the sum of the parts of what he can do.
Same for Steve Howe, he is obviously no Eddie Van Halen or Yngwie Malmsteen on the electric guitar, but combine his skills on both the electric and classical and I would say he is a virtuso musician.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 05:38
I think they were virtuoso musicians. They just chose to use that virtosity in a different way. Overall I agree with Certif1ed, and his appraisal of each musican.

If, for some, virtuoisty is a measure of how fast a musician can play complex melodies, rhythms, bass lines etc, and sadly this may be the most important criteria for some prog fans, then there are examples of where Genesis performed in this way. Los Endos is one, as is 'In that Quiet Earth' You can hear 'flashy' playing in 'Dancing with the Mooonlit Knight' 'Suppers Ready' 'Can Utility and the Costliners' (check out Rutherfords bass) and the live versions of 'Cinema Show' and 'Firth of Fifth' on Seconds Out.

Genesis were a very talented band. Virtuoso musicans? Yes.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 05:38
So what if they aren't virtuosos? Subtle musicianship and song-craft weigh 10,000,000x more on my scale than virtuosity and show-off.

And of course their progressiveness came from their song structures and themes. Where else would it come from? Unless virtuosity is considered progressive... Angry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 05:51
Originally posted by Avantgardehead Avantgardehead wrote:

So what if they aren't virtuosos? Subtle musicianship and song-craft weigh 10,000,000x more on my scale than virtuosity and show-off. And of course their progressiveness came from their song structures and themes. Where else would it come from? Unless virtuosity is considered progressive... Angry


This is the point. Virtuosity doesn't automatically equate to 'flashy' playing, it may do in the eyes of some young prog metal fans, but there are other musical considerations.

Ultimately music is an artform and should therefore capture moods, and evoke emotions in the listener. If we lay the emphasis solely on complex time signatures or BPM, it becomes maths or sport... IMHO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 07:01
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I'd say that most of them are virtuosos (Hackett, Howe, Wakeman, Banks, Emerson etc) but the technicality in their music is not quite on the same level as some of the music which was dubbed "shred" in the 80s, or as some of the fusion stuff which was also popular at the time (John McLaughlin, Al Di Meola).

In the end virtuosity is only one facet of the musician anyway ... I admire musicians who really mastered their instrument, but they don't have to wear this ability like a crown in order to get my attention.

Saying that their technicality is not of the same level is definitely not true. You can't blame then for not using techniques that were invented later. Paganini invented several new playing techniques for the violin, but that does not mean that Vivaldi was technically worse than Paganini. There are always new techniques which are being invented for instruments. Shredding is just a technique for playing extremely fast.


Edited by BaldFriede - August 29 2008 at 07:02


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 07:01
I recently received an email from a Garageband member (complaining about my reivew of his music, naturally!) informing me that he was a super-duper music teacher who charged lots of money, and advised me (for free) that music = math.
 
Aside from the fact the word is mathematics, or maths, not math TongueTongueTongue, the argument here is an obvious non-starter - but goes to show that some people actually believe it. Confused
 
Naturally, I asked him to come and discuss the matter here, on a music forum, rather than via email - but I note that the thread has not yet arisen...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 07:08
I'd go along with that - the mark of a great musician is to know when not to play, not to fill every bar with as many notes as possible - witness Hackett's solo in Firth Of Fifth, Banks's Mellotron coda to Seven Stones - masterpieces of understatement

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 07:13
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

I recently received an email from a Garageband member (complaining about my reivew of his music, naturally!) informing me that he was a super-duper music teacher who charged lots of money, and advised me (for free) that music = math.
 

Aside from the fact the word is mathematics, or maths, not math TongueTongueTongue, the argument here is an obvious non-starter - but goes to show that some people actually believe it. Confused

 

Naturally, I asked him to come and discuss the matter here, on a music forum, rather than via email - but I note that the thread has not yet arisen...


An unfortunate attitiude for a music teacher...

Perhaps he should be teaching maths.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 07:52
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Aside from the fact the word is mathematics, or maths, not math TongueTongueTongue
 
 
Only to you Brits.  To the civilized world it's math.  You guys are always putting extra letters in words.  You know that's why the states really revolted against British rule.  We got tired of putting all those extra u's in words.  Speaking of which, in the UK, isn't it mauths?  WinkTongue
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