I am upset. Here's why (progressive elitism):

......Metal (Dream Theater fans in particular) on the Defensive.

Some people may be offended by my post. Oh well. I'm offended by the actions of some forum members.....

Every so often (usually with the release of a new Dream Theater CD) a newbie to the forums will come along and start a Dream Theater thread with entirely innocent and optimistic intentions (I assume, since it seems this way to me). This person, and Dream Theater, will be harassed and made fun of at length throughout this thread for simply starting the topic.

Why?

Because some prog fans view Dream Theater (and a lot of Prog Metal and Neo-Prog) as "introductory prog"--one's first exposure to prog music that's to be thrown away as soon as one discovers "better prog." Most proggers, I think, are elitist in a variety of ways, usually to mainstream music. However, it's no rare breed of prog fan that's elitist within the realm of prog music. Now, I know prog fans revel in liking music that few other people do (relatively speaking), and I think this feeling becomes more pronounced when the prog fan starts to listen to more and more obscure music. (By the way, I feel this way myself at times, so I'm extrapolating to a wider theme here). This feeling may be kept inside, or it might be made public, to the point of outspoken jabs and "point-and-snicker" sorts of actions. I find that the worst offenders tend to be hardcore fans of a genre that is both obscure in relation the prog as a whole yet with a wide enough following to incite me to make this topic: RIO/Avant-Prog. This is not to say all RIO/Avant prog fans are like this, but I see this tendency often in this group.

Now, I know that a lot of hardcore prog-metal fans are CONSTANTLY on the defensive against elitism, bias, and misconception on this site. The level of this rises and falls from time to time, but I'm noticing it more frequently recently than a few months ago. perhaps this is because of a controversial addition or two...  Anyway, I think this elitism leads to a feeling of inferiority (if not countered by active thinking by the prog metal fan) and the need to constantly justify one's musical taste, whereas perhaps the RIO/Avant fan doesn't seek approval or justification from anyone.

Unless we make a conscientious effort to not do this, I'm afraid it is our natural state to do so, as prog fans.

I do not think I am not elitist. I said that I am, but I don't think I am as much as other prog fans can be. More importantly, I don't think I am elitist enough to make my posts stink of elitism to the average forum member. maybe I'm wrong, though. If I am, please make another topic about how this topic made you think I'm an even bigger offender than you.

By the way, this is more of a rant than a coherent topic, so if you find anything worth responding to, then a couple of clappies for you:




Edited by stonebeard - November 27 2007 at 13:24

Besides myself, I can't think of a single RIO fan like that. 

And as of late, I've been doing my best to restrict it to the STC thread where no one will see it. 


Edited by rileydog22 - November 25 2007 at 01:16

/\ well, I don't think it was mostly at you, micky, we all know you do it in jest, but there are some people here who have a vehement hatred...I personally don't care and though this may be a prog site, I can ASSURE you I've seen far worse elitism elsewhere....basically people seem to feel that the more obscure their band is, the more important they are because they listen to them and no one else seemingly can

Dood, don't even worry about it. If a Sleeptime Gorilla Museum fan makes fun of you for listening to Dream Theater, laugh at him; he's the pseudohead, you're the guy who likes a catchy metal band. That goes for everyone.

All pseudo-heads: Listen to The Flower Kings and The Truth Will Set You Free!

micky wrote: stonebeard wrote: This person, and Dream Theater, will be harassed and made fun of at length throughout this thread for simply starting the topic. Why? By the way, this is more of a rant than a coherent topic, so if you find anything worth responding to, then a couple of clappies for you: four words my friend... because it is fun... along with the elitetism that comes naturally with being a prog fan. .there is another characteristic we often see here..... that is... having a stick the size of a tree trunk up our asses....  ie.... a complete lack of humour and a fanatical seriousness in regard to  their favorite branch.. or groups.

Oh, and don't think that just because I have that last line in there that the post was directed at you.








It kind of is, though. But you already knew that.


Edited by stonebeard - November 25 2007 at 01:24

stonebeard wrote: micky wrote: stonebeard wrote: This person, and Dream Theater, will be harassed and made fun of at length throughout this thread for simply starting the topic. Why? By the way, this is more of a rant than a coherent topic, so if you find anything worth responding to, then a couple of clappies for you: four words my friend... because it is fun... along with the elitetism that comes naturally with being a prog fan. .there is another characteristic we often see here..... that is... having a stick the size of a tree trunk up our asses....  ie.... a complete lack of humour and a fanatical seriousness in regard to  their favorite branch.. or groups. Oh, and don't think that just because I have that last line in there that the post was directed at you. It kind of is, though. But you already knew that.

I know.. but you know me.. I'm a man-whore for clappies

rileydog22 wrote: stonebeard wrote: rileydog22 wrote: Besides myself, I can't think of a single RIO fan like that.  We know ourselves better than we know other people, so maybe you just don't see it in others. In any case, I wouldn't start a topic if one single person did something like this. The obscure-elitism connection was a sort of logical connection in my mind, because it makes sense to me and it seems to be supported by what I see in the forum frequently. I could be totally wrong, though. But I doubt it. If anything, I've just underestimated fans of obscurer music's non-elitism. I'm honestly drawing a blank to think of anyone else like that.  The biggest RIO fans on the site, the Drop-In crew, are some of the nicest people on the forums.

Well, I don't drop in there much (news to everyone, surely), but I know the people there are not the ones I'm talking about. Perhaps it was a bad decision of mine to single out RIO/Avant fans when in fact I should say that unless a conscientious effort is made by the listener to count it, the more the person is a fan of obscure music, the higher the tendency there is to exhibit elitism toward less obscure prog bands and their fans.

stonebeard wrote: RIO/Avant prog fans on the Offensive..... ......Metal (Dream Theater fans in particular) on the Defensive. Some people may be offended by my post. Oh well. I'm offended by the actions of some forum members.....   I'm not offended, but need to clarify some points. Every so often (usually with the release of a new Dream Theater CD) a newbie to the forums will come along and start a Dream Theater thread with entirely innocent and optimistic intentions (I assume, since it seems this way to me). This person, and Dream Theater, will be harassed and made fun of at length throughout this thread for simply starting the topic.   If a newbie comes and starts a thread about ELP, probably will also be harrassed, if he does a thread about ASIA, most surely, you must accept that are bands that are popular among most progheads , some that are disliked by most and a group like Dream Theater that are polarized, people loves or hates them. Why? Because some prog fans view Dream Theater (and a lot of Prog Metal and Neo-Prog) as "introductory prog"--one's first exposure to prog music that's to be thrown away as soon as one discovers "better prog." Most proggers, I think, are elitist in a variety of ways, usually to mainstream music.   I absolutely disagree, but lets go step by step:   Neo Prog is not introductory Prog, it's later prog, most older fans have been introduced to Prog by 70's musi and younger generations by different sub-genres, Neo Prog is disliked because it's in a terrible state, hardly 10 or 20% of the bands have reliable information or information at all, the bios are a disaster, seems that nobody worried about cleaning it and keeping the genre in order, that's why HT and myself accepted Erik's challenge and hope we can change this. Now the problem with DT is not that it's introductory Prog, it's simply that some people like me hate them, introductory or advanced makes no difference, for me DT are a collection of capable musicians in a contest to prove who can do the longest solo and who is better, I can't stand 5 minutes of Dream Theater while i can listen STYX or very rare symph bands for hours.   However, it's no rare breed of prog fan that's elitist within the realm of prog music. Now, I know prog fans revel in liking music that few other people do (relatively speaking), and I think this feeling becomes more pronounced when the prog fan starts to listen to more and more obscure music. (By the way, I feel this way myself at times, so I'm extrapolating to a wider theme here).   Not the genral case either, for example i don't worry for the most obscure sub-genres, give me melodic music with interesting structure and that's enough, the cacophonic bands give me no pleasure.   This feeling may be kept inside, or it might be made public, to the point of outspoken jabs and "point-and-snicker" sorts of actions. I find that the worst offenders tend to be hardcore fans of a genre that is both obscure in relation the prog as a whole yet with a wide enough following to incite me to make this topic: RIO/Avant-Prog. This is not to say all RIO/Avant prog fans are like this, but I see this tendency often in this group.   Honestly..Rio/Avant is not my cup of tea. Now, I know that a lot of hardcore prog-metal fans are CONSTANTLY on the defensive against elitism, bias, and misconception on this site. The level of this rises and falls from time to time, but I'm noticing it more frequently recently than a few months ago. perhaps this is because of a controversial addition or two...  Anyway, I think this elitism leads to a feeling of inferiority (if not countered by active thinking by the prog metal fan) and the need to constantly justify one's musical taste, whereas perhaps the RIO/Avant fan doesn't seek approval or justification from anyone.   That's not accurate IMHO, people have different tastes, if you have to justify your taste, then you have the problem. Unless we make a conscientious effort to not do this, I'm afraid it is our natural state to do so, as prog fans. I do not think I am not elitist. I said that I am, but I don't think I am as much as other prog fans can be. More importantly, I don't think I am elitist enough to make my posts stink of elitism to the average forum member. maybe I'm wrong, though. If I am, please make another topic about how this topic made you think I'm an even bigger offender than you.   You are not an offender, by the contrary, one of the kindest persons i know in this Forum. By the way, this is more of a rant than a coherent topic, so if you find anything worth responding to, then a couple of clappies for you:   Hope to deserve at least one.   Iván

some people just.....

rileydog22 wrote: King Crimson776 wrote: Most obscure bands suck, think about it. People try to like it because it's obscure. I remember this thread about bands like Family and Flash and sh*t, and this guy was like, "Dood, Flash is better than Yes." and I'm like . Seriously sometimes I get elitist feelings toward the pseudoheads who purposefully listen to obscure music because of it's obscurity, even when it sucks. I'm like, dude, you forgot about good music. Damn fans of obscure music! How dare they have opinions that differ from King Crimson776? Everybody knows that obscure music is terrible! THEY'RE ALL FAKING IT!

Bad obscure music, like the mediocre 70's bands that wish they were Yes, that is, and all that Avant/RIO sh*t

Edited by King Crimson776 - November 25 2007 at 01:58