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rushfan4 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66270 |
 Topic: Phil Collins For Addition as Prog-RelatedPosted: November 15 2007 at 14:51 |
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Hi All,
I posted the following in the Laura Meade discussion thread and I am now copying it here since it is a more appropriate place to discuss (or re-discuss again). I think that the following would be a decent compromise to add a controversial artist such as Phil Collins to the Prog-related section (again to quote Ghost Rider, prog-related is not prog).
Let me ask you this. Would it be such a bad thing if Phil Collins were added to PA and if his biography consisted of the following in big bold black letters in size 40 font: AS A SOLO ARTIST PHIL COLLINS DID NOT PERFORM PROGRESSIVE ROCK MUSIC, HOWEVER, HE IS A WELL KNOWN PROGRESSIVE ARTIST FROM A SEMINAL PROGRESSIVE ROCK BAND AND THAT IS WHY HE IS HERE. He was the drummer and vocalist for Genesis as well as the drummer in the jazz fusion band Brand X..... For progressive rock you should check out these bands or other similar bands such as.....
My guess is that if people choose to review his solo albums they will end up with an average rating of 1 or 2, based upon the review standards provided by this website. Although ratings don't matter that much that should lay to rest any doubt that the members of PA believe that this work is poor and for fans only.
To my way of thinking, I don't see why this is a bad thing other than that the front page will be dripping with venom for the first few weeks while all the negative reviews are being posted. I think that this does send the message that Phil Collins is not a prog rock artist, but if you do like Phil Collins you should try Genesis or Brand X or whatever other bands are listed there. Will it persuade anybody else to like progressive rock music? I don't know. I have seen others post in some threads that they were aware of Phil Collins and latter day Genesis and had no idea that progressive era Genesis existed until they came here. What I will say is that there is at least one person, being me, who is living proof that being a progressive rock fan and being a Phil Collins fan is not mutually exclusive.
What do you think of something along those lines? Edited by rushfan4 - November 15 2007 at 19:32 |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 17:04 |
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The post above has been extracted from another thread and placed here, with the agreement of RF4.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66270 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 18:44 |
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I'm really surprised this hasn't drawn any interest. I expected that it would be up to page 12 right now and the whole of Prog Archives would be standing outside my door with drumsticks to beat me senseless. Then again, I haven't checked outside my door and that might be why no one is posting. |
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 23 2005 Location: The Tardis Status: Offline Points: 8543 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 18:51 |
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They're busy preparing the torture implements and setting fire to the hay for the obligatory burning at the stake.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66270 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:01 |
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I was afraid of that. Or possibly that they were so stunned they fell from their chairs and knocked themselves out. But boy will I be in trouble when they come to. Although I imagine some computers may have triggered self-destruct mode at the mere thought.
Edited by rushfan4 - November 15 2007 at 19:02 |
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: August 24 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 8844 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:07 |
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Why would we want him here? Sure, he's an ex-prog musician, but there's thousands of those. If we included every artist or band which included prog-rock musicians, we'd have more non-prog than prog.
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sircosick
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 29 2007 Location: Chile Status: Offline Points: 1264 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:17 |
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^ That's right in some sense. It's like adding Steve Winwood's solo career just because he was the leader of a prog band......
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The best you can is good enough...
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66270 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:20 |
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The first to awaken from his fall-induced coma (I assume that The Doctor was otherwise occupied on a porn site). Because he is easily one of the best-known former members of a prog band that plays what most consider to be non-prog music. With that being the case he certainly would have the best probability of drawing traditionally non-prog fans to this site and maybe once they're here they can be converted to the prog side of the force. Heck there are probably more posts in threads concerning him then any other band or performer on this site.
His inclusion would be almost entirely based on the idea of his being related to a prog band because he was a member of Genesis, but that is what would be included in his biography. If he were here you would certainly have the option to ignore his existence. Or you could have fun venting your displeasure by rating all of his albums 1 star.
As with anyone in the prog-related category the administrators and the site owner have the right to discriminate at their pleasure who is and who isn't included, so I am pretty certain that they would not allow that category to become completely out of control. Mostly, because they have better things to do with their time than deal with these types of artists.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66270 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:23 |
Steve Winwood is another high profile non-prog musician who could serve a similar purpose to the site as Phil Collins would. Although, I am guessing that his albums would rate a 3 star instead of a 1 or a 2 star.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35960 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:37 |
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Like I said in that thread, I feel that the music should speak for itself. It's the music's
relation to Prog, not the individual's relation that should matter.
When we allow one under those conditions, how can we not allow others? Making exceptions would just confuse and upset people. And I really think that Related should be treated more as a less-Prog rather than a non-Prog category (for bands/artists that don't quite make the cut in the accepted Prog categories). As for including names particularly to bring people in, I'm rather against that on principle. Seems disingenuous, can be seen as too self-serving site-wise, and conniving in a way (even if it did help to make Prog more popular/ get people into it). Edited by Logan - November 15 2007 at 19:42 |
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 8844 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:45 |
Bingo! |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:46 |
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The question I would ask would be why? What is the positive benefit in adding Phil Collins? I do not believe that his inclusion would fulfill the requirement of attracting new fans to the Prog Archives.
Any Phil fans would know he was in Genesis, even if they only knew the later releases, and therefore would find their way to the PA through Genesis (if at all - ever Googled Genesis? Even with m@x's superpowers, Google does not lead you to the PA - the chances of a Phil Collins search resulting in a PA find would be many times less).
All that would happen is that his albums would get low ratings based on their zero Prog content, thus driving away the fans, and the occasional high rating from a fan who did not read the rating criteria, which would annoy Progheads. Either way, that would ultimately reflect badly on the PA (IMO).
However, I do not believe that there would be a dreadful flame-war for adding him: people here do not despise PC, most actually admire the guy, but I do think his solo albums would get hammered and I see no benefit in that for Phil or the Archive.
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What?
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:49 |
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philippe
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 14 2004 Location: noosphere Status: Offline Points: 3597 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:05 |
 Shame on you old fascist
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E-Dub
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 24 2006 Location: Elkhorn, WI Status: Offline Points: 7910 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:11 |
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What kills me is the phrase "prog related is not prog". If it's not prog, then what the #@&%! is it doing here?
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66270 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:18 |
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Why is it here? Because its here. Roll the Bones.
Its here because M@x says its here.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66270 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:21 |
I haven't heard the Tarzan II soundtrack, but I ashamedly enjoy the Tarzan I soundtrack. But if this was a reason to exclude him, then ELP should be removed from the site for their Ice Show, and I certainly wouldn't expect or want that to happen.
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 8844 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:22 |
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Wasn't the infamous ice show Rick Wakeman? I don't think ELP had anything like that.
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E-Dub
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 24 2006 Location: Elkhorn, WI Status: Offline Points: 7910 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:24 |
Doesn't mean all of us here have to like it. Right? Free to speak my mind...I hope. E |
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 23 2005 Location: The Tardis Status: Offline Points: 8543 |
Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:25 |
 I was otherwise occupied, but ummm, with what I'll keep to myself.
 On the topic of Phil, I actually enjoy a lot of his solo work, especially when he lets his love of jazz or old-style r&b show through. Or when he's downright p*ssed off. If his solo albums were added, I could see myself rating his first album with a solid 4. It's good stuff and I still enjoy hearing it now and again, some 25 years after I first heard it, a rare thing for a non-prog album. I also like quite a bit of Hello...., But Seriously, and Dance into the Light (the drums on this album are superb, as he didn't use any drum machines
 ). However, I have to agree with the majority here on this one. While he played in a prog band, his music really didn't draw a lot of influence from prog. Almost zero in fact. His influences were jazz, r&b and unfortunately some of the modern pop of time.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Phil Collins For Addition as Prog-Related
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sircosick wrote: