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Lonely Progger 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: March 07 2007 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 100 |
 Topic: Yes,ELP= Dream Theater ?Posted: October 16 2007 at 16:01 |
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I've noticed that a lot of people don't enjoy Dream Theater, constantly accusing them of technical masturbation, well in what does Yes' very technical music differ from Dream Theater ? ELP is also a very technical Symphonic group what makes it better than DT, is the Symphonic tag ? i find ELP dreadful overblown lyrics( a lot of poor comparisons and metaphors), and they are vey technical, but not that loved on ths site anyway.
Isn't there maybe a bit to much prejudice against DT just because they play prog metal, are from the 90's and have an awful singer ?
Well i'm telling you now i don't really like Yes or Dream Theater , so i don't really listen to either a lot. So i won't really know their obvious big differences. I find them both maybe a bit unfocused from time to time,playing without any emotional goal. So can people tell me in what Yes or ELP are better Than DT?
Because DT is obviously a group very much influenced by Yes, and according to wikipedia Emerson's favourite modern group is Dream Theater.
I know this a potentially dangerous topic sorry, with possible very conflicting point of views being expressed.
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Lost in the south of france:
" Le rock progressif ? C'est quoi cette connerie? " |
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cursestar
Forum Groupie 
Joined: April 20 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 67 |
Posted: October 16 2007 at 16:12 |
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I can kind of see your comparison with ELP - kind of - but as for Yes, I don't agree. Yes' music is technical, yes, but it's also some of the most beautiful (rock) music I've ever heard. I can't say the same about DT.
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beebs
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 04 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 136 |
Posted: October 16 2007 at 16:24 |
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I feel that Yes and ELP at their height seemed to be about excesses ("noodling") in their music. Both turned more melodic later in their careers (Yes with "Going For the One" in 1977 and ELP the same year with the "disastrous" "Love Beach") and this alienated many of their followers. It's not a coincidence that progressive rock - which thrived from 1969 or so until about 1980 all but disappeared from the mass musical consciousness (sounds like I've been dipping into The Moody Blues too much, I know...) as New Wave and Punk emerged.
As for Dream Theater, I enjoy some of their music, but in general they do at times smack of what turned me and many others away from progressive rock: the tendency to lean on excessive "noodling". This is the trap that bands like Camel, Gentle Giant, and a handful of others never fell into.
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"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of one's own mind" * Ralph Waldo Emerson
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explodingjosh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 10 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 507 |
Posted: October 16 2007 at 18:38 |
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It seems to me (this is a very subjective comparison) that when Yes
shows off their technical ability in a song, it seems like a
forward-moving progression in the song and composition, and integral to
the whole piece. When Dream Theater shows off, a lot of times it sounds
like a tangent, just a technical aside to remind listeners that they
are Dream Theater, and they like to show off a bit.
He needs to listen to more modern groups.  |
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Shakespeare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 18 2006 Status: Offline Points: 7744 |
Posted: October 16 2007 at 18:48 |
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When Yes is technical, they're still very musical. I personally (and this is strictly personally) find Dream Theater's more complex songs to be cold and mechanical. However, I am not really a huge Yes fan anyway...Magma blows 'em both outta the water.
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ProgBagel
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: May 13 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2819 |
Posted: October 16 2007 at 19:56 |
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According to wikipedia....not Emerson. 
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White Shadow
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 20 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 259 |
Posted: October 16 2007 at 20:00 |
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My dislike of Dream Theater doesn't really have to do with their technicality. When it comes down to it, I guess it's just their sound. It's too heavy. I don't like metal. But, I do feel they are unnecessarily technical at times, just like I do about ELP. I wouldn't call it bad music. It just isn't what I'm into. I prefer the more subtle stylings of people like Tony Banks and Robert Fripp. Obviously, technicality is good and a HUGE part of prog (don't get me wrong I like it), but I think there is such a thing as overdose. My friends love Dream Theater so I hear it a lot. Many times I feel they start a good idea but it just gets ruined in complex solos and time changes. Songs lose focus and meaning. I like ELP a lot and I see what you're saying. Sometimes, they are overly technical, but again I don't think it's a much as Dream Theater and it has way more to do with their symphonic sound that I like them and dislike Dream Theater. Also, the singer does make a big difference. If it was Emerson, LaBrie and Palmer, I would probably not listen nearly as much. BTW, I do not find Yes to be over technical at all.
Edited by White Shadow - October 16 2007 at 20:02 |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
Posted: October 16 2007 at 20:06 |
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Dream Theatre is digital and computer mixed while early Yes and ELP are analogue, that is a big, big difference.
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clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 14 2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 4160 |
Posted: October 16 2007 at 20:58 |
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How very, very true.  |
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005 Location: Chile Status: Offline Points: 4318 |
Posted: October 16 2007 at 21:00 |
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Throw some Kansas in and we have a deal... no, wait!... I'll just have the Yes - Elp - Kansas combo, please.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2755 |
Posted: October 17 2007 at 02:06 |
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I think it is unfair to accuse Yes of the excess of noodling prior to GFTO. Listening to TFTO or Relayer, it's quite clear that except for a couple specific places (White's drum solo in Ritual comes to mind) we are dealing with thoughtfully composed music instead of noodling.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: October 17 2007 at 08:30 |
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It's true that DT have become somewhat of a "whipping boy" for non-fans here, but my dislike of the band's music has less to do with anything that is unigue to DT, than it does with the speed, typical lyrical themes, vocal styles and aggressive sound of modern metal in general. This type of music appeals to a great many people, but it just does not appeal to me.
And yes, I know that DT belong to a metal sub-genre dubbed "prog metal" due to the incorporation of typical prog elements into the sonic mix (flashy keyboard frills, longer songs with multiple sections, etc), but for me, the metal part of the equation always dominates, and that's where I'm left cold.
I will say this though, in partial defense of the much-maligned Labrie: at least he doesn't "growl." That particular metal vocal affectation I really cannot stand.
Thus, for me it's a case of "to each his own." Metal (DT, other prog metal or otherwise) is simply not to my taste. I find the overall sound (not the occasional displays of "flash" or virtuosity) of Yes and ELP to be far removed from metal (as do most others, it seems -- thus their placement here in non-metal categories). I think you are erroneously comparing vastly different types of music. (If they weren't greatly different, I'd likely be a DT fan -- i know I honestly tried to get into them when I first encountered them here.)
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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salmacis
Forum Senior Member
Content Addition Joined: April 10 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3928 |
Posted: October 17 2007 at 09:01 |
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I don't find Yes or ELP to be purveyors of mindless, endless noodling. ELP always get criticised for this but I don't agree; their compositions are generally excellent (from 1970-73) and the solos are always melodic, IMHO. Edward Macan has just written a book on ELP called 'Endless Enigma' which I've read in passing in a nearby book shop and it's superb; will have to get this one soon as it's possibly the best book I've ever read on prog. He addresses many of the criticisms thrown at the band as being very unfair and inaccurate, and I have to say, from what I read, there is hardly one thing in his assessment of their careers that I don't agree with.
Dream Theater, at their best, don't fall foul of this either. I felt the first disc of 6DOIT and half of 'Train Of Thought' were really the only particularly guilty offenders, to be honest. Some of their albums have bits which seem to be there to show us just how well they can play, but not as consistently as those two I mentioned, IMHO.
For the record, Emerson was interviewed recently about modern prog. He said the following- from this website... http://www.vintagerock.com/kemerson_interview.aspx
With ELP no longer an active and working band, do you listen to any of the new progressive rock bands out and about today? I’m a big fan of Jordan Rudess. I went to see Dream Theater at the Universal Amphitheater, and I thought they were bloody loud. Jordan, God bless him, got us some fantastic seats right in front. If I suffered from constipation when I went in, I definitely didn’t when I came out. It was phenomenally loud, but it was good. Very high energy. And I think the Universal Amphitheater allows them that spaciousness their music needs. I think Jordan has done a lot to promote keyboards in the way that he’s got this revolving keyboard set-up. I was very jealous of that. In order for progressive music to excel and have a new generation of listeners, I think the melodic, thematic development of which ever piece is used as the main vehicle has to be distinctive and memorable. It’s all well and good to be technical and fast all the time, but I think a lot of it after a while just washes over you. It’s the same with the new generation of jazz players. Some that you listen to are unbelievable technical geniuses. But that’s all it is — it's just technique. You come out of a gig and there’s nothing you can remember, there’s no distinctive hook. You say, “That was played very well, but for the life of me I have no idea how it goes. It was just very fast.” I think you’ll find on the new album which I’m doing, there are distinctive melodies you can actually sing. Apart from the fun that we have with different modulations and chord progressions, going through the whole background is a distinctive melody. I think people will always want melody above technique. It reminds me of my father’s advice in my formative years when I was playing the piano and writing. He would say, “You’ll never make any money playing music that people can’t sing.” And I’ve always kept that in mind. As much as I suppose things like “Tarkus” are not easy to sing, there’s always a moment, where you go, “Ah, this is the melody.” You’ve got to appeal to everybody in advancing progressive music. This is something I completely agree with. You need to know when to pull in the reins and think about structuring the song first, not the soloing. I've heard rather too much modern symph/retro prog which doesn't seem to grasp this.
Edited by salmacis - October 17 2007 at 09:04 |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: October 17 2007 at 10:21 |
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Re the original post, there is a strangeness to your logic when you promote a band you like, by deriding those you compare them with.
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Kim?
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 09 2007 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 84 |
Posted: October 17 2007 at 11:35 |
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I my opinion the whole sound of Dream Theater is so sterile and clean, compared to that of Yes and ELP, thus making it a bit un-emotional.
The focus on tech is of course present in all three bands, but in Dream Theater, it seems to be the main focus - to me anyway. |
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cynthiasmallet
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 545 |
Posted: October 17 2007 at 13:58 |
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Keith Emerson is a musical legend and Steve Howe had great stage presence and charisma. But John Petrucci stands up there like a constipated lemon and just randomly churns out near impossible guitar solos. Having said that, Mike Portnoy is a very intelligent drummer, and is probably the only one in the band that doesn't over play his part.
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Would you like to watch TV, or get between the sheets, or contemplate the silent freeway, would you like something to eat?
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Visitor13
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: February 02 2005 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 4702 |
Posted: October 17 2007 at 14:09 |
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Dear Lord, how I wish I could draw 
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
Posted: October 17 2007 at 14:24 |
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That should get a prize as quote of the year here at PA.  It's a pity I'm not going to see DT next week in Rome (I chose to see Rush in Milan...), because the mental picture of Petrucci looking like a constipated lemon would've had me laugh for the whole of their concert! |
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007 Location: Austin TX Status: Offline Points: 6890 |
Posted: October 17 2007 at 17:56 |
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I can see why you would accuse ELP as overly excessive (but imo not as much as dream theater), but not Yes. Besides Ritual and the gates of Delirium, All the other Yessongs are very non self centered and are comprised of an entire bands work then five musicians soloing theyre asses off.
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Lonely Progger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 07 2007 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 100 |
Posted: October 18 2007 at 12:28 |
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sorry i know that my topic isn't really clear.
I don't really like dream Theater so i'm not trying to really promote, i'm just really trying to see how much of the critiques of DT are objectif and how much of them are based on prejudice because the people who play the music have beards and wear black clothes, because this group who is a major prog one of the 90's 00's, has very poor ratings on this site, and a lot of the stuff they do is really amazing and they do do a lot to promote prog, it always makes me smile to see on pictures promoting their tours Portnoy in the back with a " In The Court Of The Crimson King" shirt showing clearly to the world that he is a progger and that they better watch out
 .anyway the thing is I am more of a kind of Genesis,King Crimson,Neo Prog & P.T. fellow but i really enjoyed Liquid tension very progressive and has this jazzy side that really makes it flow, so i'm discovering these technical groups ( really dislike ELP so far), so that's why i'm asking these question's about DT & Yes.
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Lost in the south of france:
" Le rock progressif ? C'est quoi cette connerie? " |
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Yes,ELP= Dream Theater ?
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Lonely Progger wrote: