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reality 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 318
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 Topic: Professional Reviews
Posted: August 28 2006 at 15:32 |
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I thought it would be nice to show a professional review on each album before\above the fan reviews, to show a more unbiased, trustworthy opinion of the music. It is not that I do not like the fan reviews but a well researched review by a professional writer seems more reliable to me. Sometimes I flip over to Amazon first to read a professional critique (when they have them) and then read the fans review when deciding to buy an album.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: August 28 2006 at 15:46 |
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Well, I can tell you 50% of our regular Collaborators review at a level well surpassing those half-assed idiots at Rolling Stone magazine, and those fools get paid big bucks to say Hilary Duff's new album is just peachy and give it a benign 3 stars. What you're proposing seems like one review would be put on a pedestal to make the ones subsequent of lower value. Some of our reviewers (James Lee and Maani cometo mind) are experienced writers, and Mr. Ridout and Ivan Melgar Morey and dozens others all write very thoughtful and informative and intelligent reviews. Whether they're professional (whatever that term means anyway) doesn't matter. I have a feeling that if we did this, a whole lot of Collabs who worked hard to review albums would feel pressty pissed off.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: August 28 2006 at 15:53 |
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Speaking personally, one of the most endearing things about this site is that it is not professional.
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reality
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 318
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Posted: August 29 2006 at 14:33 |
I thought this site was to teach others about what prog realy is and what it is not. When I look at alot of reveiws based on opinion oreinted conjecture and ego driven bias (it is not just in the forums) I starve for the objective critisism of someone outside the blind faith fan mentality. I have no trust when the majority of albums are five stars and the word "masterpiece" is involved with 90% of them. I got the idea from several Jazz forums which have a fans review page but when you look at the album itself it is reviewed by an expert with a high degree in musicology and journilism or has played with many of the artists and has become expert in that way. I am not saying that anyone is not a good writer but there is a major difference between a "subjective fan review" and an "objective critcs review" and if I was a new one to prog (based on reviews) I would be spending alot of money on music I do not like.
It was just a thought.
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: AČ Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
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Posted: August 29 2006 at 15:16 |
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I appreciate your idea, but professionals are no more unbiased and trustworthy than most people.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: August 29 2006 at 16:42 |
But the strength of this site is that you get a diversity of reviews for each album, thus leaving the reader to make their own mind up as to whether the album is for them. Giving one review predominance over all others would imply that it was the correct view.
We do have a degree of prioritisation though. Reviews by our Special collaborators and Prog reviewers, people who have been identified as contributing considered and well composed reviews over a period of time, are listed on the album pages before those by other reviewers. The star ratings by these members also have a greater influence on the average ratings.
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reality
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 318
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Posted: August 29 2006 at 23:24 |
 Easy Livin wrote:
But the strength of this site is that you get a diversity of reviews for each album, thus leaving the reader to make their own mind up as to whether the album is for them. Giving one review predominance over all others would imply that it was the correct view.
We do have a degree of prioritisation though. Reviews by our Special collaborators and Prog reviewers, people who have been identified as contributing considered and well composed reviews over a period of time, are listed on the album pages before those by other reviewers. The star ratings by these members also have a greater influence on the average ratings. |
Well thank you, I did not realize that.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20436
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 04:29 |
reality wrote:
I thought this site was to teach others about what prog realy is and what it is not. When I look at alot of reveiws based on opinion oreinted conjecture and ego driven bias (it is not just in the forums) I starve for the objective critisism of someone outside the blind faith fan mentality. I have no trust when the majority of albums are five stars and the word "masterpiece" is involved with 90% of them. I got the idea from several Jazz forums which have a fans review page but when you look at the album itself it is reviewed by an expert with a high degree in musicology and journilism or has played with many of the artists and has become expert in that way. I am not saying that anyone is not a good writer but there is a major difference between a "subjective fan review" and an "objective critcs review" and if I was a new one to prog (based on reviews) I would be spending alot of money on music I do not like.
It was just a thought. |
Actually this abundance of 5* ratings IS of course a problem and has been a cause of concern right from the opening of this site almost three years ago. This is why the ratings are weighed , but even then, since the reviews are done on a voluntary basis, the people always choose to review albums THEY like and therefore shun the lesser records.
Having written a lot of reviews , I can tell you it is much harder to write up a good informative and neutral review about an album that you do not like or do not care for, than for one that is loved by everone.
Furthermore about prof reviewiers: when you read up most of the paper mags review, very few go in depth. A good deal of those reviews do not even talk of the music and I sometimes wonder if the prof reviewer even listened to the album more than once. And I always think that their rating and texts are always based/biased on an ulterior motive of them being professional writers and having to deal with the group if they ever meet them for interviews.
So for me, those reviewers are simply not trustworthy outside of them being just an opinion. Some mags have yearly reader's poll/feedback when they ask if you ever bought a Cd based solely on their reviews and I always put a a "Never" in that box.
And I truly feel that sites like us our Progressive Ears, ProgGnosis or Gnosis2000 are much more professional and trustworthy for reviewing prog in general, but maybe even most 70's classic rock. Now I am not talking of full blown articles , just album reviewing.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 04:41 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Actually this abundance of 5* ratings IS of course a problem and has been a cause of concern right from the opening of this site almost three years ago. This is why the ratings are weighed , but even then, since the reviews are done on a voluntary basis, the people always choose to review albums THEY like and therefore shun the lesser records.
Not always true, but in most cases you're quite right.
Having written a lot of reviews , I can tell you it is much harder to write up a good informative and neutral review about an album that you do not like or do not care for, than for one that is loved by everone.
I agree 100% about that. It is easy to wax lyrical about your favourite album, much less so to be objective when you are reviewing something you can't even listen to in one take. This was the case for me when I reviewed DT's "Awake" - but I managed to come up with a fair, balanced review, which didn't bash the album unnecessarily, while pointing out that it was far from my favourite listen.
Furthermore about prof reviewiers: when you read up most of the paper mags review, very few go in depth. A good deal of those reviews do not even talk of the music and I sometimes wonder if the prof reviewer even listened to the album more than once. And I always think that their rating and texts are always based/biased on an ulterior motive of them being professional writers and having to deal with the group if they ever meet them for interviews. Another  for you, sir! I've been subscribing to Classic Rock magazine for some years now, and, while I enjoy it, I've often felt their so-called 'professional' reviews are anything but. They're clearly as biased (if not more so) than 'fan' reviews, and in comparison to many of the better reviews we have here are much less informative. As to their being really objective or informed by technical knowledge of music... well, the less said about it the better!
So for me, those reviewers are simply not trustworthy outside of them being just an opinion. Some mags have yearly reader's poll/feedback when they ask if you ever bought a Cd based solely on their reviews and I always put a a "Never" in that box.
And I truly feel that sites like us our Progressive Ears, ProgGnosis or Gnosis2000 are much more professional and trustworthy for reviewing prog in general, but maybe even most 70's classic rock. Now I am not talking of full blown articles , just album reviewing.
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 04:48 |
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Amazon features reviews written by people like the ones on PA, so it's not better.
The interest when you frequent the PA forum is that you get to know the reviewers and their tastes, and so you can trust them or not, following the similarity with your own taste. And of course, PA offers different reviews of the same album, which a great advantage compared to others sites, like Gnosis offering ratings by various persons but no reviews, which is really lacking on their site.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21616
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 06:09 |
oliverstoned wrote:
Amazon features reviews written by people like the ones on PA, so it's not better.
The interest when you frequent the PA forum is that you get to know the reviewers and their tastes, and so you can trust them or not, following the similarity with your own taste. And of course, PA offers different reviews of the same album, which a great advantage compared to others sites, like Gnosis offering ratings by various persons but no reviews, which is really lacking on their site.
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Usually - at least for the not totally obscure albums - Amazon displays a professional review above the user reviews. In Germany for example, Rock/Metal albums feature a review from the German Rock Hard magazine.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20436
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 07:18 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
oliverstoned wrote:
Amazon features reviews written by people like the ones on PA, so it's not better.
The interest when you frequent the PA forum is that you get to know the reviewers and their tastes, and so you can trust them or not, following the similarity with your own taste. And of course, PA offers different reviews of the same album, which a great advantage compared to others sites, like Gnosis offering ratings by various persons but no reviews, which is really lacking on their site.
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Usually - at least for the not totally obscure albums - Amazon displays a professional review above the user reviews. In Germany for example, Rock/Metal albums feature a review from the German Rock Hard magazine.
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But outside this paper mag being quite sharp in its domain, do the writers/reviewers have enough background and spectrum to be able to review correctly and trustworthilly the albums? I mean, yes reviews axed at purists metallers are fine, but how about the more casual fan or the prospective people?
I mean the dangers with such acute and specialized mags are real. In Belgium there is this free Dutch-speaking Metal mag called MindView (truly the works of dedicated fans  ) where they have a whole pannel rating (out of 20) some 20 albums, but only one guy is reviewing it.
Furthermore outside their whole metal spectrum (including progmetal and gothic etc..), I think 3/4 of them never listen to anything but metal, which is potentially very dangerous (and not only for the mental health  ) in their writing. I have the idea that for them Judas Priest is their Dylan and Black Sabbath is their Presley, and they've never heard much before that  .
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21616
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 07:24 |
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^ I'm not saying that "professional" reviews are better than those done by people like us, or that it makes sense to always display such a review above the others.
I just checked amazon.com - for the new Peeping Tom album the editorial review says:
"Years in the making, PEEPING TOM, noise rock renaissance man Mike
Patton's most accessible work since his days in Faith No More, is
finally a reality. The 11 track opus, featuring a lengthy and
incongruous cast of guest performers."
I guess that most reviews here outshine this one ... nevertheless it is more helpful than the length suggests, as it contains many infos (who made the album, background/former bands, it is accessible although the man used to make "noise rock", features many guest appearances).
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 08:51 |
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I have always been under the impression that fans of music know it better than people who approached the music superficially, although some fans can not be trusted too. I guess this is one of the situations where one shouldn't generalize.
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sig
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: September 01 2006 at 18:14 |
Re the preponderance of five and four-star reviews here (and further to the good point that Sean Trane made), I'll say it again, as I think it bears repeating:
Professional (paid) reviewers and critics get given (free) discs to review, from their employers and recording labels. Thus, they are much more likely to encounter/have ready access to, material that they don't like, or feel less than enthusiastic about.
Volunteer (unpaid) reviewers (that's us) do NOT get sent albums to review. We must review what we buy. A fortunate few of us can readily borrow from nearby friends (or even large public libraries), but that is not generally the case -- it's certainly not the case with me! (Prog Archives can't -- to do so would be illegal -- even provide its "official" Reviewers and Collabs with MP3 access to various albums.)
Given the major difference in how professional and volunteer reviewers acquire their material for reviewing, and the crucial fact that the purchase of music by music fans like ourselves overwhelmingly tends to be an INFORMED purchase (we generally have some prior knowledge of what we're spending our precious, limited music dollars on -- no sane person with finite resources wants to buy stuff they probably won't like), it should be readily understood, and expected, that we will like most of the music we own -- and that is what we have (available) to review.
I (like most other music fans and collectors) simply cannot write many less than favourable reviews, because I JUST DON'T OWN MANY DISCS I DON'T LIKE.
Thus, it stands to reason that "fan" sites like this one will always, perforce, have a much higher percentage of favourable (3 to 5 star) reviews than professional sites or magazines do.
Degrees in music or journalism have little, if anything, to do with that fact. I (and my compatriots here, I'm sure) can be fully as scathing as any paid critic toward music I don't like!
You want more 'balance," more negative reviews? Then send me a broad spectrum of music, gratis.
Anyone got any extra DT or Fartcastle discs they don't need?
Edited by Peter Rideout - September 01 2006 at 18:34
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: September 01 2006 at 20:16 |
When I grow older I'd try to be like Peter!
BRAVO!!!
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Guigo
~~~~~~
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Barla
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 13 2006
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 4309
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Posted: September 01 2006 at 20:20 |
stonebeard wrote:
Well, I can tell you 50% of our regular Collaborators review at a level well surpassing those half-assed idiots at Rolling Stone magazine, and those fools get paid big bucks to say Hilary Duff's new album is just peachy and give it a benign 3 stars. What you're proposing seems like one review would be put on a pedestal to make the ones subsequent of lower value. Some of our reviewers (James Lee and Maani cometo mind) are experienced writers, and Mr. Ridout and Ivan Melgar Morey and dozens others all write very thoughtful and informative and intelligent reviews. Whether they're professional (whatever that term means anyway) doesn't matter. I have a feeling that if we did this, a whole lot of Collabs who worked hard to review albums would feel pressty pissed off. |
I agree with the idea.
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