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Thyme Traveler 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: February 12 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 164 |
 Topic: Making a statement...Posted: June 02 2006 at 17:21 |
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Just a few comments about ratings by users and the way some use it to "make a statement"... (1) We've all seen how SEBTP, CTTE, and now WYWH have a dispprortionate amount of "1" ratings (at least considering the fact that the vast majority of people acknowledge these albums as some of the most important prog albums ever). I myself haven't got around to rating albums and while I consider SEBTP my favorite prog album and the temptation is there to abuse the system by giving those other albums a "1", I think when I get around to it I will also give those other ones "5's" as well(because they are worthy of the highest mark). Just wondering how many who think Selling is the best don't take the high road and instead give CTTE and WYWH "1's" in order to nudge the ratings in the direction it should go. Or Yes fans who think "Close to the Edge" should remain on top and do the same. Or Pink Floyd fans who are now in striking range.
(2) We've all disagreed with one band or another being in the archive. For many, it's Styx or Triumph or the Beatles. Take a look at this reviewer who rated every Beatles album a "1" and only bothered to put a review(a half-arse one at that) for one of them.
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Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions.
What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum. |
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Psychedelia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 238 |
Posted: June 02 2006 at 18:53 |
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I agree this is stupid and ruins the system for everyone, i gave Selling England... a two but that is because i think thats what it deserves. People should rate albums objectively on their own merit
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Another emotional suicide, overdosed on sentiment and pride
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:00 |
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^Two!
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 05:07 |
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There are enough ratings of the top albums now to render the odd manipulative one meaningless.
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20029 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 05:17 |
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Going through the entire Beatles catalogue and giving them all 1 star without comment is a major abuse of the system and those reviews should be removed.
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:46 |
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If people can explain their rating,whatever it may be,no problem by me.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21134 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:54 |
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I think that the 1 star Beatles ratings of that user are abuse and should be deleted from the database.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 03 2006 at 06:54 |
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crimson thing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 28 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 848 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 09:30 |
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I've never actually had the courage to review any album, but not being a great fan of the Beatles, I'd be sorely tempted to give most of their stuff one star only - so does that mean my (hypothetical) reviews would be/should be removed?
Another point - obvious, I'm sure to many of you. Unless every reviewer reviews every album, there will be a bias of some sort to the system, simply by virtue of what is not reviewed. Most people (I imagine) are driven to review that which they find amazingly good or staggeringly awful, so 5* & 1* reviews will occur disproportionately (disp. from the total population of potential ratings, that is, not necessarily that there are more eg 5* than 3* in the actual ratings).
None of which really matters a hoot, unless you are the kind of person who lies awake at night grinding their teeth at the iniquity (and the inequity) of Fiddler's Todger's fine album "Speak to the Crack" lying 16 places (sixteen places !!!!!) behind The Trolls of Downing Street's ridiculous double concept album "Bush has a brain - honest".
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Joolz
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 24 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1377 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 09:31 |
Yep  . Getting rid, simply because we disagree with the rating, is censorship, a dirty word in my book and I wouldn't like to see it happen. But, it seems this person needs to justify his/her position in this case.The problem, IMO, is allowing ratings without some form of backup. It is my belief that ALL ratings should have written backup, either in the form of a proper review, or as a shorter comment. At the moment, PA has this thing called 'Review' which can be any length. But, if it is shorter than 200 characters it is not displayed, and if it exceeds 200 chars but is still otherwise on the short side it nearly always gets pulled because someone thinks it doesn't say enough for a review [even though we allow ratings without reviews]. Well, I agree - a few words usually don't make a good review (not always), but it is better to say something. So, why not make a clear distinction between shorter COMMENTS and full REVIEWS. This way people can simply explain their rating in a couple of sentences while others can contribute to the review system. |
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 11:08 |
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I've noticed it with lesser known bands also. Gnidrolog for example. Last time I looked a few weeks a go, "In Spite of Harry's Toe-nail" had one 1 star rating, whilst the rest were 5 star ratings and 3 reviews, two of which were by well respected reviewers.
Maybe that 1 star was justified, but there was no review... maybe it was under 200 words and so therefore doesn't show, or maybe it was just given a 1, to stop it being a 5 star rated album, which seems more likely to me. I cannot see how anyone can even being to give that album 1 star. Yes, they may not enjoy it, but the musicianship is great and is worth a 2 alone in my opinion. I love the album, so I'd personally rate it 5 too. It is indeed a problem, but I cannot see any simple way of alleviating it, unfortunately. They're here to stay. |
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crimson thing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 28 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 848 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 13:38 |
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Hmmm....I wrote something about GnarledOldLog's ...toenail... album elsewhere..........I bought it (as a double with LadyLake) a few days ago.....and all those who gave it 5* had better avoid my part of the world for a while.......underwhelmed would be a polite way of putting it........ Of course these ratings are subjective, but I can't allow unopposed praise of what I thought was a very poor album. If you want to talk musicianship, I would argue that they had no idea how to integrate the flute, oboe & cello with the standard rock band instruments. It was extremely amateurish. Jim Royle would have an apposite comment for them........(And I've also just heard VdGG "Present" & Riverside's second - for the first time, never having heard either band before (cue gasps of shock from the PA elite!), and was pleasantly surprised by both - so it's not just the shock of the new.) I think if I could be at all bothered to rate the ...toenail... album, I doubt I could raise the enthusiasm to write 200 charactersworth of review.....but that wouldn't mean I hadn't thought about it, or that my opinion was worthless....... |
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Tristan Mulders
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 28 2004 Status: Offline Points: 1723 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 18:21 |
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I for one only vote when I can upload a review with the vote...
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Interested in my reviews?
You can find them HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
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Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2696 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 18:36 |
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It's a good system we have here, but there is abuse of the system from time to time.
Whilst i agree that with some of the main albums a few manipulative 1* ratings really make no odds, they really do make a difference with releases that have few reviews...
I have noticed on a couple of titles whilst the reviews are pretty good the album has a poor rating...........because of the 1*trolls at work.
Giving a rating without a review is great in principle for our many non-english speakers, but it does give the bad guys a back door for havoc.
unfortunately it is a subject that will go around and around, I don't see an easy soloution........
but those 1* idiots really cheese me off!........plain cowardice, hiding behind a rule that was set up in the system for all the good reasons.
P-C
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: October 21 2005 Location: Terra Brasilis Status: Offline Points: 12288 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 23:11 |
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Part of the solution is that ratings are ponderated now... one rating backed by a valid review weighs more than one rating without a review.
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Guigo
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 03 2006 at 23:14 |
I agree witth you, but that's not the point, I would rate Help or Hard Days Night with no more than two stars if I'm in good mood, because IMO is just lollypop music, I'm entitled to my opinion if I support it.
What I hate is that some of us put all our effort in adding a band, making a bio (After searching for data in the most strange places), taking the tedious work of adding the Discography (Some bands have 20 or 30 albums) and just after that we make a careful review of an album we love dearly just to find somebody has rated it with one star while you were adding the other albums without saying a fu**ing word.
Believe me, this is frustrating, I honestly don't know if the guy has even listened the album or just wants to be the first to rate it.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 03 2006 at 23:15 |
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 13 2006 Location: Londinium Status: Offline Points: 4252 |
Posted: June 05 2006 at 02:41 |
as i am a fan of the Beatles, have followed them since 1963, i appreciate their historical importance and would rate most Beatles albums highly, with such knowledge i would feel qualified to give an objective review, this also goes for Art rock/Psyche-Space rock/Metal. i am not a fan of Canterbury prog, never have been and dislike the music so i do not feel qualified to give those albums a fair review - so i won't!
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 Prog Archives Tour Van 
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crimson thing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 28 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 848 |
Posted: June 05 2006 at 02:55 |
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With great respect, mystic fred, I'm not sure what knowledge is required to be "qualified" to give a review? I know a fair amount (but certainly don't claim to be an expert) about one particular band, and have picked up bits and pieces about others over the years. However, I would not feel "unqualified" to write a review of an album by a band whose history was unlnown to me. If I've listened to the album more than once, that's enough surely? (The only reason I haven't reviewed yet, is that I fear the power would be addictive & I wouldn't know where to stop......... |
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"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS
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Toccata
Forum Newbie 
Joined: November 16 2005 Location: Lithuania Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: October 18 2006 at 08:16 |
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What happens when kids start joining for a vote in PA? We can see it clearly in a recent example which involves Dream Theatre “Scenes…” and Tool “Lateralus”. Just look at numbers: October 01: DT – rank 20, rtg 4,23, votes 432 and Tool – rank 26, rtg 4,36, votes 207. October 18: DT – rank 27, rtg 4,20, votes 444 and Tool – rank 20, rtg 4,37, votes 218. In a meantime: DT had 1 reviewer (with 5 rtg) and 11 “voters”, Tool had 1 special collaborator’s review (with 4 rtg) and 10 “voters”. (10 an 11 votes for these bands in a two and a half weeks period are twice as much as in two whole previous months). To have such a dramatic change there should be a series of extremely negative votes for DT (with average of 2,9) and lots of 5 stars in a row for Tool (with average of 4,6). Which normally is very unlikely to happen. And this is what I would call a really big abuse. |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: October 18 2006 at 15:02 |
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I am deeply indebted to you Toccata!
I don't know how you spotted it, but further investigation revealed a systematic and significant attempt to manipulate the ratings.
I won't say anything about the "evidence" but it revealed a clear and unambiguous action over a period of time.
It has now been dealt with.
M@x has promised that mandatory forum log in to rate and review albums is coming soon.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: October 18 2006 at 15:23 |
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Wow.
What a bunch of little tools!
 Ratings are a crock, anyway.
 Ignore them -- read a good review, or sample the album.  Edited by Peter Rideout - October 18 2006 at 15:24 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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Making a statement...
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Ricochet wrote:
)