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Thyme Traveler 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 12 2006
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 Topic: What If ? (Genesis’ later output)
Posted: April 07 2006 at 16:31 |
What if after Steve Hackett had left Genesis, the remaining three members decided to lay low for a while (becoming recluses), got plastic surgery (hair plugs for Phil), changed their name, manerisms, etc. And then came back as a "new" band (we'll call this band "Revelations" for the sake of argument). Assuming this "new" band was able to be successful in fooling all of us into thinking they were three new individuals (which would be a dauting task considering Phil's distinctive voice, Banks keyboards, songs like "Paperlate" which allude to their past, etc), how would we rate ATTW3, Duke, Abacab, "Revelations", and Invisible Touch ? How would Ivan rate them ?
It seems to me that we tend to rate marginally prog releases by formerly full-blown prog bands differently than those by bands outside the genre who become partially prog. The former are called sell-outs, the later are looked at favorably as mainstream bands who decided to expand their boundaries.
Would we be talking about that band, "Revelations" who was no doubt a pop-rock band but who was arguably prog related ? Would these "prog-related" albums be highly rated ? Would we be talking about the mainstream band who released the Album "Invisible Touch" and included a few prog-like numbers like "The Last Domino" and "The Brazilian" ?
Your thoughts ?
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Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions.
What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum.
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stechell
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Posted: April 07 2006 at 16:52 |
Excellent thread!!!
Eventhough, Genesis Prog catalogue ends up with Duke, I would suggest all remaining albums would rate much higher than they actually do. You mentioned, tracks like Last Domino, Duke's travels, Home by the Sea, among others. are much much prog than anything Radiohead, Queen, The Beatles did or have done on their entire catalogue. Any of these tracks performed by these mainstream "Prog related" artists, would classify as great "Prog experiments" by most of us. We don't allow our fav bands to go further and experiment.
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altaeria
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Posted: April 07 2006 at 17:05 |
This is similar to my argument for the DRAMA album.
Take away the "YES" moniker and it probably gets general consideration as one of the best Prog Rock albums ever made. 
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: April 07 2006 at 18:13 |
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I'd hate the music as much as I do now, really. The Last Domino and The Brazilian are good, but not great at all... They would prpbably be a little known pop band and wouldn't be included in PA. They wouldn't have as much disrespect because they didn't ruin a great band, but they wouldn't be very popular either(unless someone starts promoting them on MTV, etc.)
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GPFR
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Posted: April 07 2006 at 18:23 |
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They proboboly would be considered higher then most all Pop Rock Bands, but I still wouldn't like them too much. I think they would be more of a success on the charts.
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www.myspace.com/hail_peter
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 06 2006
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Points: 5109
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Posted: April 07 2006 at 22:59 |
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If that had happened I probably wouldn't have given those albums as much
of a chance as I did. My patience wore thinner with each release. I even
defended "Invisible Touch" for a while. Then I came to my senses, and threw
it in the trash. I also don't believe that they got so much play because of the
Genesis name. The people who were really into it probably never knew that
they even existed before 1980.
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Dirk
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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Posted: April 07 2006 at 23:48 |
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Well i don't know too much Genesis examples (neo prog) but let us for a moment think that your
band (the Revelations) are former Yes (So after going for the one They became Revelations) and we compare the Revelations with the Flower kings (a band influenced by Yes).
IMO Revelations are laughed off the earth in comparision.
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Playa10
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Joined: April 07 2006
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Posted: April 08 2006 at 00:00 |
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Alright,, first think of WW marketing (It does matter in the music world, believe it or not!!) Sade gets away with 'Sade' despite her insanely amazing band,,,,, But come on ... how many million 'Phill' records are you going to sell... Phil's voice is just that... 'Phil's Voice' take it or leave it.... It is all a matter of magnitude,, that is why Stevie Nick's sells out .. no matter who is backing her up..
Regards from the Diehard!!
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andYouandI45
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Posted: April 08 2006 at 00:03 |
Haha. nice attack on Ivan
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Thyme Traveler
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Joined: February 12 2006
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Posted: April 08 2006 at 00:29 |
 andYouandI45 wrote:
Haha. nice attack on Ivan
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As I've said more than a few times in here, I respect Ivan. I used him as an example because he is on the other side when it comes to 80's Genesis. Some of us who grew up in the 80's actually liked the pop Genesis for what they were in the 80's.
Hey, I was in a band with prog leanings in the 80's (if we'd have made it, you guys would probably be arguing whether we were prog or not, but we didn't really care about labels). I realize there is plenty of good music outside of prog. And yes, there is music which is solidly prog which sux, believe it or not.
I sometimes wish people could get past the "Is it prog or not ?" stuff. Go to a country. metal, pop, etc forum and you don't see people arguing day after day about whether an artist or album is of their particular genre. Go to a Britney Spears forum and you don't hear people saying "Is Britney really pop ?" Sure, they may wonder about how real her boobs are, but only in a prog forum dominated by discussion of who is "in" or "out." No wonder people think Prog fans are snooty...
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Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions.
What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum.
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Dirk
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1043
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Posted: April 08 2006 at 00:54 |
Thyme Traveler wrote:
andYouandI45 wrote:
Haha. nice attack on Ivan
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As I've said more than a few times in here, I respect Ivan. I used him as an example because he is on the other side when it comes to 80's Genesis. Some of us who grew up in the 80's actually liked the pop Genesis for what they were in the 80's.
Hey, I was in a band with prog leanings in the 80's (if we'd have made it, you guys would probably be arguing whether we were prog or not, but we didn't really care about labels). I realize there is plenty of good music outside of prog. And yes, there is music which is solidly prog which sux, believe it or not.
I sometimes wish people could get past the "Is it prog or not ?" stuff. Go to a country. metal, pop, etc forum and you don't see people arguing day after day about whether an artist or album is of their particular genre. Go to a Britney Spears forum and you don't hear people saying "Is Britney really pop ?" Sure, they may wonder about how real her boobs are, but only in a prog forum dominated by discussion of who is "in" or "out." No wonder people think Prog fans are snooty... |
Who is Ivan? ( there are more Ivans on this forum) I thought your point was that bands like Genesis and Yes still make good albums only not as proggy as in the past (you called them the Revelations). I disagree, i rather listen to the Stone roses for example or newer prog than following dying careers. So it's not about prog but about being Phil Collins for instance, recording rubbish with Phil Bailey , that's the problem. What the Britney Spears forum has to do with all of this is beyond me  .
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rupert
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Joined: February 18 2006
Location: Germany
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 09:48 |
I like the experimental courage of "Abacap", I quite like many songs from "Invisible touch" and I think that the yellow "Mama"- Album is a VERY great album. I'd not rate them differently under different circumstances cause I like them, though I prefer what was before. I have only one problem: Phil Collins' voice became plainer and plainer until it became a bore... that's why "We can't dance" isn't that good for me and his own solo-albums started becoming less attractive with "But seriously".
If you count "Duke" to the "new" Band a friend of mine who's a huge Genesis-Fan would miss out his favourite Genesis-album if not knowing the "new" band !
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...I'm a musician/singer/songwriter, visit me on www.reverbnation.com/rupertlenz and there you can choose from 125 recordings you can listen to ( for free ) if you're not limited to prog-rock !
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mgallard
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Joined: June 27 2005
Location: Denmark
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Points: 155
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 15:17 |
Dirk wrote:
Well i don't know too much Genesis examples (neo prog) but let us for a moment think that your
band (the Revelations) are former Yes (So after going for the one They became Revelations) and we compare the Revelations with the Flower kings (a band influenced by Yes).
IMO Revelations are laughed off the earth in comparision.
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Flower Kings influenced by Yes, in part, but I'd add an even more important influence on Flower Kings: Genesis, plus I'd add Frank Zappa too (listen to the guitar solos). Greetings Mogens
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Masque
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 01 2006
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Points: 808
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 18:05 |
Correct me if I`m wrong but to my knowledge of Ivan he never said that the material Genesis released after Gabriel left was great ? so why are you attacking him, its unfair and should be edited ! 
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erlenst
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Denmark
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 18:32 |
Masque wrote:
Correct me if I`m wrong but to my knowledge of Ivan he
never said that the material Genesis released after Gabriel left was
great ? so why are you attacking him, its unfair and should be edited
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You're wrong. He says that the material after Gabriel (Well, Hackett
really) left sucks. And come on, that's not an attack. No sane person
would be offended by this.
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Hierophant
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 18:43 |
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What if close to the edge was released today by a new band? We would probaly call it crap... or would we?
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Flip_Stone
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Joined: August 11 2005
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 18:52 |
What if...Peter Gabriel became president of East Canada and painted himself purple and green and flapped his arms like a chicken. He could the release an album called Invisible Touch(ing my Body) and the world would dance and sing. And maybe this topic might make more sense??
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MattNYR
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 20:57 |
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This is a great post, but the reality is that you can't think of it that way. There is a reason why we judge bands like Genesis harder than if they were a no-name group that came to rise in the 70s.
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[IMG]http://www.highergroundmusic.com/i/artists/umforiste.gif">
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deafmoon
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Joined: March 24 2006
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Points: 462
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 21:19 |
I don't know, to me Genesis just evolved with the times. I don't dig Invisible Touch or Home By The Sea or Driving the Last Spike at all - but I would rather listen to that stuff than the majority of crap that the FM stations played round the clock in those years.
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Deafmoon
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What If ? (Genesis’ later output)
