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Unplugging It

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moshkito View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 28 2022 at 08:59
Hi,

About Music ... in general. Unplug it! (Just thoughts!!!)

I have, on many occasions, asked folks to evaluate music by "unplug it", as a way for folks to find something within the playing and the composition of the piece ... not for any other reason, although some other things have come up from it.

MUSIC, for thousands of years has not had amplification (there are other details, more later) to speak of other than its placement on a stage, which 500 years ago, was a large sumptuous living room, so to speak, where the sound metrics are not as important as they would be on a larger scale. 

For me, any piece of music, will stand up when unplugged and we can see the examples in Keith Emerson's work, when done by Rachel Flowers, and now Rick Wakeman is beginning to do the same on the solo piano for many YES pieces and his own, although he is not capable (or interested) in the curry version of TFTO at all ... which for my tastes is really sad, for his work there is a true example of an orchestral work with everyone together, instead of something like CTTE where his bits are on the show off/loud side to make a point ... which in this example fit things well, but in some ways, it is more than is really needed, but we remember it with affection, so my saying this seems like a knock, but it is not intended to. I love it as it is! 

Amplification is something that will need to be studied more ... and help figure out why the orchestra design placed the lower instruments behind the violins in the back, almost to the point where they can't be heard! But, when you go back to the really old days, when music and theater were one, not separate, a lot of Greek Theater is known to have been done in the early morning, because it appears that the voices carry better in the morning when it's cool than it does later when it is warmer. This is, often, a mandatory exercise for Advanced Acting classes at many Universities when they do Greek Theater. I imagine that there are similar statements about instruments carrying in various situations, but I have never really found a good study on this and my chance to ask my professors at UCSB about this, is long gone and basically impossible. Or how, Tangerine Dream, without enough electricity to even heat the hall itself, still managed an excellent show that ended up in a record as a double LP, no less!

Too much of the music we hear today, is amplified to a ridiculous point and too much of it is about effects within the music. Effects have always, in some way, been a part of the music, but they were all accoustic and not electric, and the violin, and other instruments have had their share of abuses in many  hands over the centuries, but they still survived, and the music got stronger, more than likely because the numbers in the "orchestras" got way bigger, to the point that today, the big ones are over 100 folks alone! Well, to be fair, with an orchestra that big, you really don't need the amplification a whole lot, although some things are going to be very hard to hear if they are small, and soft. 

The recording methods of the past 75 years, have kinda changed the mechanics of it all ... but I'm not a great fan of a lot of metal and over amplified music, because I'm not sure that there is anything behind it when it becomes unplugged ... and it reminds me of many bands, a few years ago that went "unplugged" and they all sounded very good ... which ought to tell you where the music is ... but you are not going to hear some of these top bands today unplugged ... except one, that has done it classically and regularly ... Marillion!

It makes a massive difference. Although a couple of things are really scary ... both The Edge (U2) and Andy Summers (The Police) showed examples in their segments with their bands in "Behind the Music" that were very scary and showed something that we probably need to address sooner or later and figure out how to notate it ... Andy played a segment without the amplification, and wow ... it was bad. He plugged it in ... it was a part of a hit song! The Edge showed something similar as to how it sounded in both cases, and how in the unplugged state it was not usable. But you think that Bono can not sing any of their pieces with just his voice? He does and he has!

My only thought and hope about all this, is that the ability to unplug it, make the music stronger, and us thinking that only amplified music is the future, is possibly naïve and not what music history is, or will forever be ... it makes us look like we have already broke up the orchestra and thousands of years of music, because it is not amplified, and I think that disregarding history and its lessons, will hurt in the end ... we will end up with nothing ... and may be that is a good thing ... start from scratch and learn something new properly?


Edited by moshkito - March 28 2022 at 09:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2022 at 11:56
WOW...That's quite the interesting philosophy.
Misguided, but interesting.
Do you feel the same way when an artist paints with neon colours or adds other media (rocks, feathers, sticks) vs the traditional oil colour pallet?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2022 at 20:10
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

WOW...That's quite the interesting philosophy.
Misguided, but interesting.
Do you feel the same way when an artist paints with neon colours or adds other media (rocks, feathers, sticks) vs the traditional oil colour pallet?

Hi,

That's not a philosophy at all. It's based on real history and thoughts from the history of that music and the arts, that I have had acquired in the last 50 years, starting in high school. The "arts" have always been an interest for me, and music is not the only one. But music, is getting away from its source of design and thought, and going towards the "fan" way too much, to the point that it will hurt the process sooner or later. The FAN is not the art! PERIOD.

And no, I have no problems with the creativity being done with neon colours and other media, up to and including some peeing on a picture. And it is much more impressive when seeing it done live ... which I have.


Edited by moshkito - March 28 2022 at 20:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2022 at 06:45
There is lots of unplugged music - classical, jazz, bluegrass, etc.

But no way is the last lineup (three drummers) of KC going to sound good unplugged. Hell, Fripp uses more effects and distortion on his guitar than most players. Or how about The Sex Pistols unplugged? That would be a disaster. Some things need to be loud and processed. It's part of the music. How would Floyd have sounded without all those pre-recorded loops and goofy sounds? Would "The Dark Side of the Moon" or their psychedelic albums sound good unplugged? No way! Most vocalists aren't unplugged. They have reverb or delay on their voice, it's not pure.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2022 at 07:05
While I'm not onboard with a lot of the ideas @moshkito proposes above, I think the idea of 'Unplugged' is not to play the songs as recorded, but with amplifiers or effects turned off, but to perform 'acoustic' versions of the songs. That's a very different thing. Any song can be arranged for an acoustic performance, even The Sex Pistols. Whether you slow down the song or add a stand up bass and a drum kit is really up to the arrangement.








Edited by JD - March 29 2022 at 07:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2022 at 08:03
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

...
But no way is the last lineup (three drummers) of KC going to sound good unplugged. Hell, Fripp uses more effects and distortion on his guitar than most players. 
...
Hi,

Agreed. Robert Fripp is another story, going way back to his solo days and doing his own guitar thing over guitar thing, which Eno was doing with loops elsewhere in art galleries. Robert is going to find himself all alone, because no one will be able to sound like him, or make things as good, or as weird (even in some solos) as he can make them sound like. But he is also known to be tricky, and prevented at least one book and DD from doing their thing, because it is well known that a lot of his guitar playing involves guitar tunings that are very difficult to list/mark on a staff since they are not "regular" or "normal" in design or sound. Three drummers, sound fine by themselves ... it is what is with it that matters. The German group from way back NIAGARA did two whole albums of nothing but drummers, and they also ended up a famous drumming thing that went through various cities at the same time, which many people loved being a part of. Latency be damned I guess!

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

...
Or how about The Sex Pistols unplugged? That would be a disaster. Some things need to be loud and processed. It's part of the music. 
...

Sure it is, but I am not sure that it is the music itself. The sound is not exactly what ends up on a staff. And this will be problematic in the future ... how do you write these details down? And it might just hurt the whole idea badly ... at least it seems that way when compared to the history of music as something that can be identified and played from the staff.

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

...
How would Floyd have sounded without all those pre-recorded loops and goofy sounds? Would "The Dark Side of the Moon" or their psychedelic albums sound good unplugged? No way!
....

Going back to 1972, when I saw them, the material, almost the same as the one that Nick Mason is doing these days, was not as goofy. The pre-recorded stuff was material that was used in between the songs, and my guess still is that they were making sure they had the right this or that for an instrument, yeah ... some effects ... were working right. Otherwise, the pre-recorded sound bits that were used in their Quadraphonic setup (saw them in the Hollywood Bowl 1972 with it), would be senseless and meaningless, when in effect they ended up becoming the "story" (as seen in DSOTM) and eventually THE story in The Wall.

But PF, has done a lot of acoustic stuff and DG has done that as much as Roger has, even though one could say that they are most of all, "electric" players. I kinda think that one of the reasons why RW and DG don't seem to like the early stuff much is just because they can not do it without the effects and such, and most of it they probably find boring and elementary compared to today ... but you certainly don't see that problem with the Nick Mason and his friends playing the old stuff! Just imagine, you get up start a song humming, and then you go looking for the right effects to make it come alive. I doubt it. Likely you end up with a piece and then enhance it with whatever effects you decide.

But "psychedelic" not sound good acoustically? There were many singers and bands during and right after the psych days that did their thing and we didn't complaint. They just didn't sell a million for us to even bother looking at. And many of them were not "effect" laden as much as we thought. All of a sudden Syd Barrett comes to mind as the least "effect" person and singer of them all. His "effects" were done on stage live or equivalent and we can see it in a couple of things done live. Hendrix was not about effects, and he is STILL one of the most revered ones, and you can put all his playing on a staff, and is available for anyone.

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

...
Most vocalists aren't unplugged. They have reverb or delay on their voice, it's not pure.
...

I don't know about that ... I keep thinking of Peter Hammill, one of the top listings of our progressive listings, and he doesn't need the effects, because HIS VOICE is the effect, although he might use a bit of this or that for effect (like reverb), but in general he is straight forward. I remember Janis ... she didn't even need electricity to sing and sound good. Both Led Zeppelin and The Who, were also pretty much straight forward and they did not need effects to make them sound better.

It's just weird that we think that we can only sound better with the effects. The very best singers, will never be looking for the "effects" and will interpret their wording in such a manner as to make the effects not necessary at all. To me, and it is not while thinking they are good, folks that need the effects are trying hard to make themselves feel that it sounds better, but in essence, they are hiding a lot of their insecurities in their voice and acting the words they are singing, thus the enhancement is necessary. 

As a director in theater or film, you work the "actor" to bring out the words better, and as flawlessly as possible, and this is something that rock music does not like to do because too much is centered around the ego and how much it has already sold, and thus, it has to adjust to something as close as possible to satisfy an audience that is paying for it. If someone sounds "bad" unplugged, it is because they are not singers. AND should not be trying to sing. Maybe they should use words as poetry instead. Which many have done.

But I am not sure that these different takes on "vocals" are as well defined these days, as they could be when everyone is more concerned with "sounding like" someone else, than they are in the ability and quality of their own voice, which .. as usual ... they can't find (... the moment with David Bowie in TD's book is a perfect example) until later. If ever.




Edited by moshkito - March 29 2022 at 08:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2022 at 08:19
Hearing aids are electronic devices. Pardon?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2022 at 20:31
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

While I'm not onboard with a lot of the ideas @moshkito proposes above, I think the idea of 'Unplugged' is not to play the songs as recorded, but with amplifiers or effects turned off, but to perform 'acoustic' versions of the songs. That's a very different thing. Any song can be arranged for an acoustic performance, even The Sex Pistols. Whether you slow down the song or add a stand up bass and a drum kit is really up to the arrangement.
...

Hi,

I'm just using the "unplug it" thought for saying EXACTLY what you stated. The material will, always be slightly differently in sound, obviously, but the idea is to show that the real music inside the song exists in the first place and is not in the electronics alone. 

That is the idea of "unplug it", and it was for many bands during the 80's and they sounded fine. I haven't heard anyone trashing many of them at all! But it showed a quality to their work, that is not always visible for many bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2022 at 20:59
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

The material will, always be slightly differently in sound, obviously, but the idea is to show that the real music inside the song exists in the first place and is not in the electronics alone. 

I think "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" is a good example to use here. I tend to think that the full blown version on the white album is over produced and I much prefer the acoustic version that is available elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2022 at 08:02
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

The material will, always be slightly differently in sound, obviously, but the idea is to show that the real music inside the song exists in the first place and is not in the electronics alone. 

I think "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" is a good example to use here. I tend to think that the full blown version on the white album is over produced and I much prefer the acoustic version that is available elsewhere.

Hi,

It reminds me of Sandy Denny's "One More Chance" that on the redone last album with her by Fairport Convention, there is a solo piano version, that apparently was a demo. The piano version is strong enough to bring you to tears, and it's really hard to think ... she didn't get another chance. Beautiful song ... and the album version is outstanding with a fabulous violin/guitar duet in it to the end ... but the only thing we have left is the memory of a super beautiful voice, that also left us with "Reynardine" (along with Richard Thompson -- wonder why he has never done that again, even without the voice?) ... one of the prettiest things EVER recorded in rock music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2022 at 08:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hendrix was not about effects, and he is STILL one of the most revered ones, and you can put all his playing on a staff, and is available for anyone.
Gotta disagree. Hendrix used a wah pedal, whammy bar, phase shifter, fuzz, and tons of volume to get feedback, used as an effect. Don't ever recall hearing acoustic Jimi.

But it would be interesting how his Woodstock performance of The Star Spangled Banner would sound unplugged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2022 at 09:07
I think much of what helped define progressive rock as its own genre of music was the experimental use of effects and electronics--and yet the music remained, for the most part, organic! It was when the computer got involved that it became less organic and more contrived and manipulated.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2022 at 06:20
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

I think much of what helped define progressive rock as its own genre of music was the experimental use of effects and electronics--and yet the music remained, for the most part, organic! It was when the computer got involved that it became less organic and more contrived and manipulated.


Hi,

I actually agree to some extent ... though these were already around, and used in pop music since the Beatles shined on a few years back. 

I don't, in general, mind the effects, when the music is still visible and as you state "organic", but yeah, I would agree that when the computer got involved a lot of things became overly manipulated and (in my ears) a lot of the contemporary material is overdone because of it.

I'm not sure, however, that we will be hearing a whole lot of music "unplugged" in the near future ... if a lot of the new bands being added to PA (as an example) are all electrified to a great extent. I wonder how many acoustic bands are out there that are way more progressive that we are not listening to at all! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2022 at 14:58
I like to unplug it, if you know what i mean. 
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