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The Notion of Originality: Arguments & Discussions

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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 16 2021 at 18:39
I always hesitate to call anything "original", most probably due to the fact that I don't have an exhaustive specialization in any field. It was a deliberate choice of mine, as I have much more fun while seeing cultural productions as vast oceans and feeling as though I'm swimming inside them like a fish. Always discovering is my thing. Otherwise I get quickly bored.

Conversely, I can easily use the word "unoriginal", but try to be sensible, empathic and plausible while doing that. As, my experiences proved long ago that some "similarities", and even virtually identical productions can be the results of sheer coincidences.

Fun trivia: People liken me (slightly physically, but more in terms of character, temperament, and way of thinking and talking) to Sheldon Cooper of The Big Bang Theory, and I swear that I haven't watched even an episode of that TV series. (I had to do a Google search to write the name here.) A friend of mine gave me the link of a YouTube video composed of its best scenes where Sheldon Cooper acts, only last year. I still am not interested, haha.

Anyway, I believe all of us can give countless similar examples, but my actual point is that; in order to be sure of whether something is unoriginal or not, we also have to be sure that the creator of an output -which can be deemed as unoriginal- is/was aware or unaware of the "original" thing that s/he is accused of ripping off.  This shouldn't necessarily mean that we cannot "accuse" anybody of this. For instance, if a metal band do a very similar song to Metallica's one big hit, they cannot/shouldn't easily get away with that... Come on... You must be aware that such a song exists!

Any thoughts/insights/arguments?



Edited by Shadowyzard - March 17 2021 at 07:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 18:52
There's nothing new under the sun. Most of the time.

Edited by SteveG - March 16 2021 at 18:56
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 18:55
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There's nothing new indet the sun. Most of the time.


“The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new.”


― Samuel Beckett, Murphy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 20:20
Originality is overrated.
“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 20:52
Very easy. Originality is something that hasn't been done before. The magnitude of which can vary greatly.

The problem with defining something as original lies in the fact that evolutionary processes are gradual incremental developments.

Occasionally a big bang of creativity can occur but more often than not it is a result of subtle changes of what has been done before.

So what's the point?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 21:08
To your question: Yes, if a piece of music sounds derivative, it should be taken into consideration whether its author had access to the original source; in other words, the musician’s intent.

There is a chance it is actually a case of deliberate musical plagiarism. There is also a chance it is a case of unintentional musical plagiarism; if the musician perhaps heard the original source music, forgot about it to some degree, and then used it thinking it was original. There is a chance the musician never heard the original, but heard many similar, either preceding or derivative, pieces of music, and came up with something almost entirely similar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 23:53
^ Almost stating a case for plagiarism by cultural osmosis. Interesting thread certainly. The first thing that came to mind was a line from Patrick Moraz's solo album the Story of I: "there's nothing new except what's been forgotten" which I've always thought contained a vestige of truth. Not sure who stated this idea originally (irony) but it may have been Marie Antoinette's dressmaker Rose BertinShocked


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 16 2021 at 23:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 03:22
A lot of reviews of Ulver’s album, Julius Caesar, made reference to Depeche Mode, and assumed that band must have influenced the sound of the album. In subsequent interviews. Garm has clarified that none of the band were familiar with any of the music of Depeche Mode. For a lot of people, that’s hard to believe - but it’s really not as impossible as people think.

I remember a long time ago that a band from my hometown came out with an album in the same year as Pearl Jam’s Vitalogy. In fact, it was released before Vitalogy. And one of the songs on it has pretty much the exact same repeated refrain as Last Exit. There’s no way either band heard the other’s song. Sometimes incredible coincidences just occur. People jump to the idea that something is derivative or plagiarised, and while that is probably the case eight or nine times out of ten, it is most certainly not always the case.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 03:53
^ This notion can bring about multifaceted interpretations and arguments, for sure.

My opening argument was indeed the sort of plagiarism, but it doesn't come to mean the rest of the input should come likewisely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 04:29
Also, I realized that how I tried to explain my hesitation to call anything "original" was rather vague. I wanted to say that, one has to have comprehensive and all-encompassing knowledge on a field (which is something I lack in any major one), in order safely to assert that something is original and has no precedent within that particular field. Hope I'm clear now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 04:30
Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

For instance, if a metal band do a very similar song to Metallica's one big hit, s/he cannot/shouldn't easily get away with that... Come on... You must be aware that such a song exists!

Any thoughts/insights/arguments?


I would agree that I would expect a metal band to have heard this one big hit, but suppose a band of another genre created a song using a similar riff and claimed they had never listened to Metallica - how would you prove otherwise?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 04:34
^ Yes! I could never be sure...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 04:48
Putting on my contrarian hat:

I sense, implicit to “originality” as it’s being used in this thread, the idea of an isolated artwork or idea, having nothing to do with what has come before. I think that’s sort of the artistic equivalent to the idea of ‘spontaneous generation’ in the realm of science; in other words, loaded thinking without basis in reality.

To venture a counterpoint: it is the mark of true creativity to exercise the humility of realising one’s debt to what has come before. Hence Bach, who worked in the style of his day, even used melodies written by other composers, but developed these to such an extent that it has left its mark on all Western music since.
“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 04:53
Nice, Crane! Clap

Here is a quote from Eliot, that is related.

In manipulating a continuous parallel between contemporaneity and antiquity, Mr. Joyce is pursuing a method which others must pursue after him. They will not be imitators, any more than the scientist who uses the discoveries of an Einstein in pursuing his own, independent, further investigations. It is simply a way of controlling, of ordering, of giving shape and significance to the immense panorama of futility and anarchy which is contemporary history. It is a method already adumbrated by Mr. Yeats, and of the need for which I believe that Mr. Yeats to have been first contemporary to be conscious. Psychology (such as it is, and whether our reaction to it be comic or serious), ethnology, and The Golden Bough have concurred to make possible what was impossible even a few years ago. Instead of narrative method, we may now use the mythic method. It is, I seriously believe, a step toward making the modern world possible for art. –T.S. Eliot, from Ulysses, Order, and Myth (1923)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:03
It says "of an Einstein", lol. That's gotta be a mistake, or Einstein was not unique? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:06
Hah! It could mean ‘an Einstein’ in the generic sense of a figure who leaves a lasting impression on his field. A Bach, an Aristotle, a Shakespeare, etc.
“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:10
^ I checked my e-book, and there's not an "an" there. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:14
It's hard for me to conceive of the notion of originality in music as nothing exists in a vacuum, music most of all. It's the combining of genres that's novel to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:15
I looked up 'Original' in the dictionary and this is what I saw...


Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:22
Hopefully we're discussing listenable music. LOL
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