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BaldJean View Drop Down
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    Posted: December 30 2019 at 06:35
Barbara Dennerlein, while basically in the jazz corner, has a lot of fusion tracks on her albums too, especially on the albums where she worked with guitarist Mitch Watkins; he definitely brought a rock element into her music. here some examples:










but even without him there are a lot of fusion tracks on her albums:




I don't think her fusion leanings would merit her inclusion in the archives. on the other hand we have Oregon in the archives, a band that I love a lot but which has even fewer fusion leanings, so her inclusion is probably arguable. what's your opinion?


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Good stuff. I don't hear much jazz or fusion in the clips you provided. I hear R&B and funk.
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Moved to General Music Discussions: See "Creating new threads in the forum" (CLICK) You, yourseld say, "I don't think her fusion leanings would merit her inclusion in the archives." But even if they did, a topic on her in the Prog Music Lounge would be misplaced.

There was a topic on her inclusivity for PA made in Suggest New Bands back in 2007 that Friede, who also thought her not PA appropriate, might remember: CLICK
The only studio album I see at RYM under her name since that time is Christmas Soul (2015) -- a bit of shame since we are a little past Christmas and very close to New Years Day that she didn't do one called
New Years Solo. RYM only has her tagged with Jazz, and Hard Bop by the way. See: https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/barbara-dennerlein, and wikipedia just lists her as jazz.

Those clips sound like good stuff to my ears, but while I think she has made jazz-rock/ funk fusion, I haven't heard anything that would make me think that she would be right for our JRF category. That said, I haven't listened to a lot of her stuff or any full albums by her, and I think it better to judge by full albums rather than select clips off various albums.   But as you know her music, I think you can trust your own judgement on this. I'm not really getting the Oregon comparison, and of course if one thinks that one act is not that worthy that doesn't make for a good case for another act. I get why Oregon would have been considerable for a place in PA for its early 70s albums (it's jazz/ world fusion mix of jazz, eastern music, folk, psych, classical even if not rock music -- I think it has a good relation to music in various categories at PA, including jazz, folk and music in Indo-Prog/ Raga Rock -- I hear Weather Report similarities as well as others).

Edited by Logan - December 30 2019 at 08:24
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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Barbara Dennerlein, while basically in the jazz corner, has a lot of fusion tracks on her albums too, especially on the albums where she worked with guitarist Mitch Watkins; he definitely brought a rock element into her music. here some examples:










but even without him there are a lot of fusion tracks on her albums:




I don't think her fusion leanings would merit her inclusion in the archives. on the other hand we have Oregon in the archives, a band that I love a lot but which has even fewer fusion leanings, so her inclusion is probably arguable. what's your opinion?



Thanks for this, lots to listen to!  Now...I had shown the live version of Very Hot Stuff and also the Sonny Rollins number she did with Watkins and Chambers (and also a strangely queasy - on the day - Andy Shepard) to a prog lover friend of mine and he thought it more on the fusion side of things.  That said, I can see why for PA, it would be too bop-y without the typical - and somewhat cliche - fusion structure of introducing a theme followed by duels finishing with unison sections. The formula that ADM, RTF and Mahavishnu followed in essence.  Watkins is somehow able to play bop in a very rock and roll kinda way which takes mad skills, of course.  Unfortunately not what is needed from a PA point of view, I guess. 
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We have thirteen albums of Barbara Dennerlein, ten studio and three live albums, and will get them all in time. She is definitely one of our favourite artists.


Edited by BaldFriede - December 31 2019 at 07:56


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BaldJean View Drop Down
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her album "Hot Stuff" is in my opinion most definitely a fusion album. but judge for yourself. here are all 9 tracks of that album in consecutive order:

















there you have it. if that is not fusion then I don't know what is


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verslibre View Drop Down
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I *LOVE* Hot Stuff. That's still my favorite. It definitely qualifies as fusion.

I also dig That's Me, Outhipped and some of the other early ones.

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BaldJean View Drop Down
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thank you very much. the same to you (and to everyone else on the forum)!

Jean and Friede


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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

her album "Hot Stuff" is in my opinion most definitely a fusion album. but judge for yourself. here are all 9 tracks of that album in consecutive order:

















there you have it. if that is not fusion then I don't know what is

Besides, classic JR/F had a lot of funk anyway, so it doesn't matter if those albums have funk going on.  Doesn't make it not jazz.  
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by the way: this video is one of the very best Barbara Dennerlein videos on YouTube. a very tight band (Mitch Watkins on guitar, Rick Keller on sax, Tony Reedus on drums and of course Barbara) that really rocks. yes, rocks; even Barbara incorporates a lot of rock elements into her playing here. I like the sampled sound of the piano in this one (Barbara sampled a lot of sounds to beef up her Hammond - for example piano, vibraphone, trumpet and, for the pedals, acoustic bass). I especially love Barbara's reaction at 12:11 when Mitch Watkins comes in at a moment that would have been her turn. the title of the track is incorrectly given as "It's Me" in the video; the correct title is "That's Me" (from her 1992 album of the same name)




Edited by BaldJean - January 02 2020 at 11:14


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^I love that era. She's molten!!
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by the way: Volker Braun, a well-known German author (at least in Germany) apparently does not like Barbara Dennerlein at all and has written some extremely negative comments on some of her YouTube videos. in one comment he had the nerve to write: "kein timing, kein empfinden für melodielinien, mensch mädel, wenn du spielen könntest, hättest du viel für den jazz getan" which translates to "no timing, no feeling for melodic lines, oh boy, girl, if you could play you would have done a lot for jazz" (the German word "Mensch", while literally meaning "human (being)", is often used in the same way as the English exclamation "oh boy", as in this case).

I couldn't help but reply (in German mixed with French): "and if you could write you would have done a lot for literature. I hereby award you the Prix ​​du Raisin Aigre (French for "Prize of the Sour Grape")". the French word "raisin" actually means "grape"; the French word for "raisin" is "raisin sec" which literally means "dry grape".

sorry for that little linguistic excursion


Edited by BaldJean - January 03 2020 at 13:07


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Never heard of her but have you heard of Tal Wilkenfeld, Esperanza Spalding or Hiromi Uehara? Not that many women in fusion or maybe even jazz these days but there are some.
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Just a little insight about JF category these days. Most of these artists who are mostly some other category but happen to have one fusion album probably won't be added.  As the JF description states on its page. I doubt if she falls into this category of MOST progressive.

Only the most progressive of nu jazz, jazz-rock and fusion artists are listed on Progarchives, although accceptability or not here may vary from person to person. All artists have elements of progressive rock in their music (e.g. Jean Luc Ponty, Bill Bruford or David Sancious) or they represent the most forward-looking and progressive element in their genre (e.g. Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock or Weather Report).

Edited by siLLy puPPy - January 28 2020 at 07:56

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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Never heard of her but have you heard of Tal Wilkenfeld, Esperanza Spalding or Hiromi Uehara? Not that many women in fusion or maybe even jazz these days but there are some.

I know Tal Wilkenfeld and Hiromi Uehara, but never heard of Esperanza Spalding. I will look her up.


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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Just a little insight about JF category these days. Most of these artists who are mostly some other category but happen to have one fusion album probably won't be added.  As the JF description states on its page. I doubt if she falls into this category of MOST progressive.

Only the most progressive of nu jazz, jazz-rock and fusion artists are listed on Progarchives, although accceptability or not here may vary from person to person. All artists have elements of progressive rock in their music (e.g. Jean Luc Ponty, Bill Bruford or David Sancious) or they represent the most forward-looking and progressive element in their genre (e.g. Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock or Weather Report).

I definitely disagree about that, if only for the reason that she plays her music on church organs too and recorded two albums of that. She also made a recording with a symphony orchestra. Both these things are definitely unusual. If that is not forward looking then what is?

Also don't forget her phenomenal footwork and the fact that she integrated lots of MIDI sounds into her Hammond organ. All of these things combined definitely make her innovative.


Edited by BaldFriede - January 28 2020 at 08:30


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Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Never heard of her but have you heard of Tal Wilkenfeld, Esperanza Spalding or Hiromi Uehara? Not that many women in fusion or maybe even jazz these days but there are some.

I know Tal Wilkenfeld and Hiromi Uehara, but never heard of Esperanza Spalding. I will look her up.

Well, she's more standard jazz than fusion but if you like jazz you might like her. There's lots on youtube(as you can probably imagine).
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Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Just a little insight about JF category these days. Most of these artists who are mostly some other category but happen to have one fusion album probably won't be added.  As the JF description states on its page. I doubt if she falls into this category of MOST progressive.

Only the most progressive of nu jazz, jazz-rock and fusion artists are listed on Progarchives, although accceptability or not here may vary from person to person. All artists have elements of progressive rock in their music (e.g. Jean Luc Ponty, Bill Bruford or David Sancious) or they represent the most forward-looking and progressive element in their genre (e.g. Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock or Weather Report).

I definitely disagree about that, if only for the reason that she plays her music on church organs too and recorded two albums of that. She also made a recording with a symphony orchestra. Both these things are definitely unusual. If that is not forward looking then what is?

Also don't forget her phenomenal footwork and the fact that she integrated lots of MIDI sounds into her Hammond organ. All of these things combined definitely make her innovative.



I honestly don't know anything about her and cannot comment until i sample something. I just wanted everyone to realize how we add new artists these days. There are many who get rejected even though they have an album or two that qualifies. Just make sure to list all the clear cut cases so we can evaluate with the right albums in mind :)

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There's a whole modern (nu) jazz scene and minimalist jazz scene that is pretty progressive but doesn't qualify here on the basis of not being 'fusion' in the RTF, WR, MO sense. Similarly electronic tend to be Berlin School focused and doesn't accept many progressive electronic bands exhibiting the requisite amount of 'prog'. 

The prog definition is pretty broad in terms of metal and avant, stuff a lot of people don't consider prog, but I guess even that has limits.
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Her albums "Straight Ahead", "Hot Stuff", "That's Me", "Take Off", "Junkanoo" and "Outhipped" all have lots of fusion stuff on them (especially "Hot Stuff"). "Spiritual Movement No. 1" and "Spiritual Movement No. 2" are her church organ recordings. "In a Silent Mood" is a complete solo album of her on both Hammond and church organ. "Change of Pace" is a recording with Hammond organ, drums, saxophone and orchestra.


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