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Peter Sinfield's Progression as a Lyricist
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brainstormer View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 01 2018 at 17:33
What ways has Sinfield changed in his major works.   Not saying anything negative about him, I was merely thinking of 69 to around 80 or so, which is his work I know best.  If anyone knows about his later period more, that would be interesting.

I was thinking that Karn Evil #9 was an amazing departure from what he was writing with King Crimson.   It seems like a change in tone, and almost operatic in scope compared to what he did with Crimson.  I'm not sure of a longer work that he did.  Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentlemen was full-side, which may be his next longest work. 
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Hi,

This is a tough area for a "progressive" board and its scope of ideas.

I say that because PS went from writing something that we do not understand or have many ideas about (ITCOTCK), to many other works in Italian and translations thereof that we are not sure about, or seem to understand and appreciate.

His best known work, I think, would be the pieces he wrote for KC, because, for me, specially the first album, the "photography" of the words was so beautifully grasped by the music, and gave us such a strong and impressive snapshot of the time, place and vision, which we have a hard time thinking about, or trying to make sense of.

As he got older, writing a couple of very big hits for some artists, I do not think that he went downhill ... every poet and writer continues on, always different, because the stories change all the time, and he sees different things all around him. 

Some think that he writing a hit song for Celine Deon is a come down, and I do not think so. It is what it is, and she gave expression to those lyrics ... however, the expression went from "poetic" about the time and place, to what can be easily be thought of a a "personal song", that is not necessarily "poetic" in its written form ... it is just a song. 

The main thing is that the earlier material did not have the usual music designs and formats, and later it seems that he was better able to match those things, or at the least we have to give the singer some credit for making sense of the lyrics in a way that PS could not have done himself.

I tend to not "evaluate" one's career in the arts. Example: I do not think that his blue period is better than the red period or better than the cubist period than the free form period. Picasso is just Picasso. Same thing for Dali ... evaluating his changes and work, will only drive you crazier and into black holes with nothing to see or find.

In the end, it is all about ALL of his work and not just a piece that was written 40 years earlier, for example. 

And if we put it all together into one volume, it would be very impressive to read, even if we did not know the musical context behind or under it.  I simply think that his poetical wording and visions, were very helpful to a few bands in their early days ... and those things, when they come together have a tendency to create a lot of very pretty things, that we remember well.

As such, you have a great writer, and poet.
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Where's dean when we really need him?
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Barbu View Drop Down
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^ Are you following Mosh from thread to thread, guys? If his comments annoys you, why are you reading them?
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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Where's dean when we really need him?

I've been saying the same thing on several threads now....
;)
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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Regarding Sinfield....I liked his work with KC, his solo album Still, and the lyrics he wrote for McDonald and Giles on their only LP. Beyond that I can't say he's done much for me though some like his contributions on BSS by ELP.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

^ Are you following Mosh from thread to thread, guys? If his comments annoys you, why are you reading them?
I follow everyone from thread to thread but if you feel that mosh is being picked on, think back a few months. He's got it pretty good now.
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Barbu View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

^ Are you following Mosh from thread to thread, guys? If his comments annoys you, why are you reading them?
I follow everyone from thread to thread but if you feel that mosh is being picked on, think back a few months. He's got it pretty good now.

I really don't see the point, brother, especially coming from you since you've been through it. I very rarely interfere when it's a fair one on one but you know I'm a champion of the disadvantaged and the underdog.
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Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

^ Are you following Mosh from thread to thread, guys? If his comments annoys you, why are you reading them?
I follow everyone from thread to thread but if you feel that mosh is being picked on, think back a few months. He's got it pretty good now.

I really don't see the point, brother, especially coming from you since you've been through it. I very rarely interfere when it's a fair one on one but you know I'm a champion of the disadvantaged and the underdog.
I dig your compassion, as I've stuck my neck for mosh in the past when he was bashed for his views, but not his rants. But I will layoff in the future. Comprende amigo?

Edited by SteveG - May 02 2018 at 14:51
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I prefer his 'Still' lp to much of what he did with other people though some of it is a bit saccharine or over-whimsy.

But 'Land of Make believe' by Bucks Fizz... yuch.. I know we've all got to earn an honest living but.....

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jayem View Drop Down
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My opinion is close to Moshkito's, after somewhat chaotic witty cat poetry, why not make it more straightforward and take the pop challenge, or even more straightforward, the haiku challenge. I prefer the earlier lyrics, anyway www.songsouponsea.com shows he doesn't dismiss any of the approaches.

If he progressed, I'd say it's from chaos to simplicity.
 
I miss his news and witty comments on Black Cat Bone (scroll down).


Edited by jayem - May 03 2018 at 04:23
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Barbu View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

^ Are you following Mosh from thread to thread, guys? If his comments annoys you, why are you reading them?
I follow everyone from thread to thread but if you feel that mosh is being picked on, think back a few months. He's got it pretty good now.

I really don't see the point, brother, especially coming from you since you've been through it. I very rarely interfere when it's a fair one on one but you know I'm a champion of the disadvantaged and the underdog.
I dig your compassion, as I've stuck my neck for mosh in the past when he was bashed for his views, but not his rants. But I will layoff in the future. Comprende amigo?

Crystal clear, comrade.

Cheers!
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Points: 20436 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2018 at 00:55
I can't see where Sinfield's texts were more poignant than on Court, Poseidon and Lizard (I think they're much weaker on Islands, and don't think much of what he did for ELP)

I'm not aware of what he did afterwards either.

But I do remember visiting his site, though didn't really have time to explore in depth:


http:// www.songsouponsea.com/




Edited by Sean Trane - May 12 2018 at 03:44
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brainstormer View Drop Down
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I think the progression to longer pieces in ELP showed that he stayed strong in the progressive genre.  
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

I think the progression to longer pieces in ELP showed that he stayed strong in the progressive genre.  

Hi,

This is a little strange. Generally, a writer does not worry about the length in things, since you can not limit the size of your imagination when writing, or creating something.

It would be extremely strange, and weird, at a time when longer (and larger) pieces of music were coming around in rock music, I would even suggest to a point that Pete Sinfield helped in that area, that coming up to the piece of music with lyrics is not an issue ... it is much more likely that the music extended and adjusted to the wording, since there are a few times, when a moment or two, or a line, can help define what the music will sound like. I supposed I should say that same can happen the other way, too!

All in all, a writer, will likely remain a writer, a lot longer than rock'n'roll (so to speak!), because a writer, does not stop writing, just because a song stops. 

Now, defining Pete Sinfield as "progressive" ... I don't think so, however, his expression was valuable and important to the late 60's and how his words were used, although, in many ways, folks tend to not take lyrics seriously and think that mostly they are all about macaroni and cheese. 

I'm not sure, however, the songs he had later, for Celine and others, were not that good, either. We just do not accept that he is a writer, and some people (probably Rene in this case) appreciated his words more than some folks could and had a song created for his wife. But I'm not sure that is any different, writing wise, than creating a song about megalomaniac dictators and leaders ... many of which were in the news at the time, too. VietNam and Ireland, were not the only ones out there! And PS saw them, as well as we did, if our eyes were open, and we did not think that "All Along the Watchtower" is about the kitchen sink! Bob Dylan can be vain, but he is not THAT vain!


Edited by moshkito - May 08 2018 at 06:08
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Notwithstanding Sinfield's excellent early work with the Crims, his solo album Still and collaboration with Greg Lake on Brain Salad Surgery (circa '73), let's get real here Prog kinder with regards his merits as a lyricist/poet:

From ELP's 'Love Beach' from '78

Yes it's great now you're a full time nurse but do be careful with the air-raids getting worse

When I finally matched from Sandhurst I'd learned to put my fellow man first

I'm gonna love you like nobody ever loved you. Climb on my rocket and we'll fly

Are all worthy of Spinal Tap gravitas....Embarrassed
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^ Maybe it was early dementia...?

;)
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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