Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
|
Topic: Kim Gordon - Girl in a Band Posted: January 29 2016 at 11:36 |
Hi, This might not fit as "progressive" the way we describe it here. But there are some artistic ideas and thoughts inherent here worth reading and discussing. Please read disclaimer first! IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: I am not aware, that I have heard a single piece of music by Sonic Youth or any of Kim Gordon's music with any other bands! This will be a "review" of the book, and a commentary on one side of the arts, that I am comfortable with, but rock fans are NOT. For this reason, I did not listen to anything until after I read the book, and then wrote this to prevent being influenced by anyone's ideas. I'm letting the book fly on its own! And this review is the same. Do not expect a music review ... because it isn't. Just like the book is not a review of her music for the rock fans! Stop here if you are looking for something else! If there ever was a book, that has less to do with music and the glorious world that it supposedly creates, then this one is for you. Unlike many rock books and the boring selfish and self-abosorbed comments and events, every once in a while you come across a book that almost defied description, and while it does that, it becomes a new wonderful read ... that, unffortunately, will get passed around, and mostly ignored. Kim Gordon's book, "Girl in a Band', is one of those things that is more about the history of what she saw through her eyes, than it is anything else ... and she's just like a veritable audience catching all this movement and "life" ... simply going by. Of course, it doesn't get any easier when one gets married and has a child, and at this point the book changes.
She does what many of us do. Concentrate on the music and the art and forget the emotional upheavel of the rest, so you can concentrate on your own work. What is super nice about this book? You have a person searching for the muse and inspiration as an artist. Not someone looking for the ultimate rock riff or song! By itself, that is a massive ... and the most important part of the book. And she seems to do the same thing for the music, although I will not qualify/quantify that at this point in time. One of the best views, is her look at the LA suburbia and its comments. In so many ways, they are so real as to be scary and trying to explain and show to outsiders, how plastic and makeup this whole scene can be, is often, forgotten, a scene that lives on copy and appreciation for a star system that doesn't exist and forces people to hide behind their image. And a bit later, she moves to New York, and the artistic sensibililties kick in, and it's almost weird to be reading a book that spends more time discussing the arts, in both LA (none!!!) and NY (too much!), and find that she can maneuver around it better than when she is with the very band that she is in. To Kim's credit she is sensitive about the "fame" the band might bring to help her do her art shows, or vice versa, and eventually she learns to mix the two, which is, by definition, one of the toughest parts of any musician or artist out there ... mixing anything is against the rules, and you have to kiss up to the laws of fame ... you're a star, dress like it ... you're an artist, then show off the art ... and you and I can sit here and go ... I don't think I have ever seen one ... wait a minute ... are we talking the atist or the musician ... specially when this is the same thing and not different people. The interesting thing is when you put this book next to Patty Smith's. Kim's knowledge of all the Galleries in NY and the work they have is a trip ... and you can get a feel for what the competition is like, a lot more than you do any kind of discussion of recognition about the music from her own peers, as if she almost completely shuts off any comment, or discussion about the music itself ... similar to the art ... comments, are a joke ... because no one can really perceive the inner side of the work ... you might have an idea, but it is inside your head, and does not necessarily have anything to do with the work itself ... and she treats the music the same way, something that no musician out there is capable of doing ... they are too emotionally attached to their work, to see it more objectively as a painter, or writer would. And this indictment, is something that she takes to heart, and she makes sure she does not fall pray to that canyon of overloaded emotions that are not about the work itself at all! But I can tell you, after reading this book, that I am interested in both the art and the music, now ... even though the heyday of her music, appears to have been attached to her husband, and nowadays the music is less attached to the band that helped. It is attached to the very art work that she does, and that makes things interesting ... in other words, very different, from the run of the mill top of the pops material ... that bores many of us to heck and back! Very nice book, not for rock fans at all, because there is no kissypoo here ... but if the interest is on a person just learning to be an artist with their own work, then this book holds an interest for you. If not, this book will likely bore you. This is not a book about the glorious riff from heaven! It's more of a book, about the "moment", when the art piece came alive, and crystalized who you are! And it also can happen in music! Or "noise"! And rock music uses too much make up and too much fame, to get there, and not enough of it has anything to do with the work itself. It takes courage and care, to write and do what Kim describes here ... and one can not help but state ... right on girl ... GO! And there is no fear in displaying the art that you have and are! Very nice book, and I'm not sure it is for everyone, but it is nice to see someone show something totally different. Recommended for people that look at their "art" seriously, and I'm not talking about the notes or the chords, or your insecurity thinking about those notes and ideas that supposedly makes you an artist. And now I have some listening to do of her music ... and I will add comments on it later. I'm curious to see how I react to them comparing to the book!
Edited by moshkito - February 17 2016 at 10:01
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
|
Posted: February 17 2016 at 10:01 |
Hi, Wow ... not a single comment, even on Sonic Youth!
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
|
|
brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 887
|
Posted: March 04 2016 at 20:35 |
I grew up in NY but I'm glad I came to Seattle in 80 then finally in 82. The NY scene is a bit too decadent, kind of canned, predictable.....art should be open. I am very glad I've escaped "rock and roll." It's better to live in eternity, than in a few decades
|
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
|
Posted: March 05 2016 at 11:37 |
Hi, Honestly, I have always found anything in NY very hard to discuss ... one can look at other big cities like London and Paris, and SF and LA ... and the music scenes are more defined and visible. In NY, there is so much, that it's almost difficult for anyone to know anything about anything, and not learn about it all until way later ... I mean, as an example, I had Patti Smith music (Radio Ethiopia) from the week that it came out, and was aware of her music ... but never heard of Robert Mapplethorpe, until way after he was gone, and then about her connection ... through her book! No idea whatsoever. It makes for a scene that is really hard to discuss. For example, Kim's book is well versed on the arts, and obviously she knows something about it all ... but the book tells you almost nothing about the music, except her ups and downs with her husband and nothing about the band mates. I guess that like many artists she does not feel obligated to discuss her art ... but she's more comfortable with the art work, than she is the music ... go figure! At least that's the impression the book gives.
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
|
|
brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 887
|
Posted: March 06 2016 at 22:57 |
I seem to find a lot about rock stars mysterious, almost to the point of being contrived for purpose either of marketing or keeping the world at a distance. There is a saying, "fame lifts up that which is light." When I congratulated Kurt Cobain after one of his first gigs, he was like that. It's interesting how neither Emerson nor Rutherford in their autobiographies seem to really be interesed in talking about music at all, like it "didn't take any thought" for them.
Edited by brainstormer - March 07 2016 at 10:30
|
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
|
Posted: March 15 2016 at 12:58 |
brainstormer wrote:
I seem to find a lot about rock stars mysterious, almost to the point of being contrived for purpose either of marketing or keeping the world at a distance. There is a saying, "fame lifts up that which is light." When I congratulated Kurt Cobain after one of his first gigs, he was like that. It's interesting how neither Emerson nor Rutherford in their autobiographies seem to really be interested in talking about music at all, like it "didn't take any thought" for them.
|
I don't think this is any different than most other artists out there ... Picasso was not very good about talking what his art meant, or did ... he was more comfortable just doing it, and if you saw it fine, and if you didn't, fine, and so what?
I don't think that it is a necessity and a "rock star" explain himself/herself, but in the end, as a public figure, there will always be an interest in how they came up with the things they did and it might be voluminous, or it might just be totally intuitive and just that particular moment in time! I imagine that many people do not like the idea of saying that something is 1000% intuitive, like a child, let's say, and people think it is great art ... then you have a bad headache ... many folks take their "process" very seriously ... mine, for example, is based on film, theater and music, and most of it experimental and free form ... and I have no issues discussing it, however, there is an area of inner discussion that many folks do not enjoy and find it scary ... that I do not follow any dictum's, ideas, or religions, or some kind of metronome design that fuels the ideas inside my head ... it's hard enough to translate the stream of consciousness, that worrying about it as it comes out, stops the flow ... so you learn to not stop the flow!
Can this be done in music? I say it can, and have seen it, but catching folks that can shut down the "internal dialogue" long enough to start feeling the very notes they are playing which are illuminating their inner feelings, which might not be represented by any known music or idea, since it is only related to your own inner self. But making immediate changes, like your mind can, is something that scares us all, and makes us feel that we lack control ... thus a lot of free form art of any kind is quite mis-understood and often trashed by folks that like to defend their top ten. This is very much a media fabrication to help sell their product, only!
Reading about other folks is OK, provided you are just looking to check out how they defined their own inner work to get it done ... but when it is all about the fame and the kiss, it's boring, unless it becomes some kind of Victorian pornography, and boring ... same thing, same story, same theme, same social standard, same this and that ... and to me, this is how all the Beatles and led Zeppelin books were ... and I never felt like there actually were "people" behind any of those books! They were cartoons and stars! And for me, their art by that time, has already died!
Edited by moshkito - March 15 2016 at 13:02
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
|
|
brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 887
|
Posted: March 20 2016 at 00:02 |
I've enjoyed this conversation so don't think I'm trying to be rude on purpose.
Some would say you follow the dictum of following no dictum. That is a religion in itself. Chaos itself follows the most rules because it cannot be order, it cannot progress "artistically" because art requires beauty and beauty is structural.
Many great artists talk about their process. Picasso did talk about his art, and talked about art in general because you can find many quotes by him. Not as much as Dali, or many other artists who have written books about either their art or art.
http://www.learn.columbia.edu/monographs/picmon/pdf/art_hum_reading_49.pdf
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pablo_Picasso
I am very lucky that I have deconstructed "rock and roll" and I do not follow the parameters. I chat here because its one of the closest places for me to express myself with people that have some of the same rules of music that I do. However, I realize the about 90% of people who post on a Prog Rock board have not "deconstructed" rock, and still fall under the hypnosis it emits.
|
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
|
Posted: March 20 2016 at 08:08 |
brainstormer wrote:
I've enjoyed this conversation so don't think I'm trying to be rude on purpose.
Some would say you follow the dictum of following no dictum. That is a religion in itself. Chaos itself follows the most rules because it cannot be order, it cannot progress "artistically" because art requires beauty and beauty is structural. ... |
I usually say "no dictum" because I can not name it ... and I have no idea what the result is, until way later ... again, for me, it's just a matter of keeping up with the movie in my head ... and its order is ... not something that is discuss'able as I have no point of reference, except this case/body I reside in! I'm stuck in that one.
I never consider it a "process", but a friend of mine asked me recently ... you never stop writing, and you never run out of stories and poems ... how do you do that?
Out of words!
I don't necessarily call the poems, and short stories and novels ... "art" ... for my own work ... and consider that something for others to worry about ... I'm too busy keeping up with my own stream of insanity movie to be able to define anything.
I can talk about it all day, but by the third of fourth sentence, many folks are gonna say ... he's insane, and an idiot!
Aren't we all?
And maybe this is what I missed in Kim's book ... that we over rated what we think and discuss as "art", though I think she can not possibly believe that only what ends up on an art gallery is "art", because that would bring her music and work down to "nothing" ... but ... that makes no sense! It's the same body, person and bunch of feelings!
Edited by moshkito - March 20 2016 at 08:10
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
|
|
brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 887
|
Posted: March 20 2016 at 12:03 |
You might find it interesting to check out the negative reviews of Kim Gordon's book to get some perspective from other readers. They seem quite literate observations. I know sometimes I will like something simply because it shows me another side of life, and I'll suspend critical examination of other aspects. I don't like Andy Warhol's art very much but I like his sense of community and how he seemed to animate the idea of socializing. In my 20s, I hung around various people that would eventually "hang around" the Sonic Youth circle for better or worse, so I lived part of that life. I'm extremely glad that I got out of it when I did. I'm sorry that I can't do my art as full time as I like, but I'm also glad that I never had to be in a band making music I didn't believe in.
|
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
|
Posted: March 21 2016 at 08:48 |
brainstormer wrote:
You might find it interesting to check out the negative reviews of Kim Gordon's book to get some perspective from other readers. They seem quite literate observations. I know sometimes I will like something simply because it shows me another side of life, and I'll suspend critical examination of other aspects. ... |
That was the reason for the disclaimer, so at the very least you knew/know that the observations were from an honest point of view, not (what I call) a jaded point of view, or the rock music point of view of "fan".
I don't find the art work itself that important for my tastes, but it is what it is, and i will not judge the art itself ... as it is an accomplishment in itself ... I, myself, have a sister that is an artist and has done many shows around Europe in her life, and she lives Paris ... and it ain't no life of squalor let me tell you ... and of course, having had a dad that is published in like 34 languages and well known in Portuguese Literature, makes for a bit different touch and such, but I am not a great fan of that academic cult!
Sometimes, I find myself writing something, and people think I am simply just being obtuse about the angle on things ... and that is so strange ... and sometimes, this is the case, for example, with Frank Zappa ... and people think he is the ultimate composer/artist for me ... he's not! Amon Duul 2 and Can and Tangerine Dream and Ash Ra Tempel and Klaus Schulze are ... through out the 70's and 80's ... Frank wasn't. But Frank is going to win the battle ... because he did have "serious music" in his arsenal, and others didn't. But I hardly find that my top 5 was not being "serious" ... they were all up there!
It's hard, sometimes, discussing this 40 years later ... the perspective is long gone, and now it seems mixed up in ideas and ideas and ideas ... and every day, it seems that it is all less and less important to life and living, and I find that sad ... nothing but the arts of which music is a part, has been the most important part of my life ... so I have to give Kim some credit ... she did not do just one thing ... she did 2 of them, and the physical and emotional toll ... is much harder all around.
Regardless, it is an interesting book ... very NY for my tastes ... feels like ... thoughts come and go ... and nothing about Michelangelo! Sooooo, NY! I didn't come out of her book wanting more ... but it was a nice read about NY ... just like Patti Smith's book was -- which is absolutely the best screen shot of those days, yet! Kim, is already after those days.
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
|
|
brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 887
|
Posted: March 29 2016 at 00:51 |
I appreciate what you're communicating. You remind me a little of a retired art professor friend who was very self-effacing about what he did yet also did a lot of painting. He wasn't interesting in selling his artwork anymore, and has a pretty high self-esteem. He wasn't a good match as far as a mentor type for me because I am very serious about my professionalism and he completely gave up on doing anything "professional" with his art. I'm not saying you are like him in that regard.
|
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
|
Posted: March 29 2016 at 11:04 |
brainstormer wrote:
I appreciate what you're communicating. You remind me a little of a retired art professor friend who was very self-effacing about what he did yet also did a lot of painting. He wasn't interesting in selling his artwork anymore, and has a pretty high self-esteem. He wasn't a good match as far as a mentor type for me because I am very serious about my professionalism and he completely gave up on doing anything "professional" with his art. I'm not saying you are like him in that regard. |
"Professional" for me has a different connotation. For me, it simply means that you do what you do and you finish it in a timely fashion and such, be it at work or home, and you dedicate enough resources to it, to know that you put the effort in. This would include work, for example.
As for esteem, I usually look at myself only, and try not to compare to others. I know from my own inner studies that "creativity" comes from within, and though some will insist that it has some kind of connection to things done or not done or seen, to me it is also possible for it to come from somewhere else, the world of visions, dreams and other plethora of weird/bizarre things that we see in our inner and outer lives that we have a tendency to ignore. Some call that "mysticism", but I tend to call it, just another part of ourselves, that we love to ignore because is does not make sense, like the rest of us, supposedly, has to ... as if it was our bodies, adn the heart rules kind of thing, until it doesn't anymore.
Logic/ideas, and thoughts, change everyday, and this is the reason why I do not believe that anything that we think we stand for has solid meaning ... tomorrow we will adjust it to add/subtract something else, to make sure that we are right and that our idea of it all is correct. This is not new to me as even Aldous Huxley had a good time with it, but when it comes to the arts, any of them, for me it is about what it makes me see in the first few seconds ... and only one piece has ever shook me up really good, and it was the last one to do so, and it was Tangerine Dream's Mysterious Semblance at the Strand of Nightmares, and I still think that it was the title that threw me off, not the music itself.
It's hard to concentrate on being an "artist" and I think that Kim had a hard time doing with music what she knew she was doing with her art, since her art involved more "inner space" than her playing did with a group that was able to get a reasonable amount of attention in her time. In many ways, I think the music may have had to suffer a bit ... she had to dress like this for a video, then had to dress like this for another show, then had to go home and be in her jeans and t-shirt ... and I have the feeling that a part of the music did not stand up to the "art" as much as she would have liked, given that there were others in the band, least of which was a husband. Can't even getaway to look in the mirror and find out what is in front of it, is how I look at it sometimes ... I think that's called "perspective'.
I'm starting to like the book more, because of this conversation.
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
|
|
brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 887
|
Posted: April 08 2016 at 20:22 |
I didn't mean to bail on the dialog I just felt like I didn't have anything more to say.
moshkito wrote:
brainstormer wrote:
I appreciate what you're communicating. You remind me a little of a retired art professor friend who was very self-effacing about what he did yet also did a lot of painting. He wasn't interesting in selling his artwork anymore, and has a pretty high self-esteem. He wasn't a good match as far as a mentor type for me because I am very serious about my professionalism and he completely gave up on doing anything "professional" with his art. I'm not saying you are like him in that regard. |
[QUOTE=moshkito] "Professional" for me has a different connotation. For me, it simply means that you do what you do and you finish it in a timely fashion and such, be it at work or home, and you dedicate enough resources to it, to know that you put the effort in. This would include work, for example.
|
That's a good thought.
Perhaps I just wanted to say I read this...but also I called that retired art professor and he's having a part in a show, maybe the first one in 20 years, I don't know how long. It's funny how coincidences work.
I'm very wrapped up in my art right now and am making some new breakthroughs. I created four new videos which I've released and have some other ones that I'm still working on. I haven't released videos with my music for about six years now.
I would like to continue the conversation based on what you said and tried but my mind and heart is elsewhere. I'll probably come back to it later.
|
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
|
|