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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 18:40
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

It's nice to have a thread where fascist, confused, and libertarian can come to discuss governance.

Got to get going to my evil, elitist game of golf.  Back later



oooooo I wonder which of the first two I am? Smile
And you lucky son of a gun. I love golf.
 
 
I believe that, like most who have attended a government diploma factory, you are just not ready to embrace a path that doesn't embrace the control of strong central authority.  
 
Until people are able to let go of the asinine notion that the government is capable of regulating the market, and that they would/could do so to everyones benefit, then all we can do play DC-tug-of-war.  What I mean by "DC tug of war" is that all we really do currently, with elections, is decide which small group of people will be babysitting us.  You guys keep trying to find the cool babysitter, who let you stay up late and play video games, I'll keep trying to convince the parents (those immovable bureaucrats that actually run) that not only don't I need a babysitter but that......wait a sec, I was going to say "it's time for me to move out of the house altogether" but the government lives in my/our house, it's not the other way around.  Those b*st*rds stole our house!  And now they have everyone thinking that it's perfectly fine they make the rules we live by and charge us rent.
 
I'm tired and I'm rambling, nap time


To be fair, unless you guys just don't believe me. I've moderated. My ideas go back to High School and  I was a literal socialist. It was actually through the government diploma factory that I've moderated.
Hows that for whack?
And I know I like to play devil's advocate and debate just because....but just so there's no confusion I'm not gung ho regulate everything. Especially when you say "regulate the market" Ive never really spoke against free markets and all that, except at first when I was pissed off LOL

And you got kind of general there. The government/system all that is screwy man. I dont know how many times I can say it but I dont love the government, cant even say I like it. OK Im rambling LOL
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 18:40
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I would like to ask Libertarians for a book recommendation. As free thinkers as people might be, there were books that sent you on this track. I have read books written from something closer to my perspective than to yours. Give me a few names. I want to read on the subject and see what other people in your side think besides 4 guys here in PA. What would be good but remember, something that wouldn't make me doze off which could happen if you give a book forthe initiated (like givig a Michael Moore movie to a right-winger).i don't want a book that preaches to the converted but to the ones who want to know that perspective. Please.


Two of the best and most influential books on libertarian thought are F. A. Hayek's "The Road To Serfdom" and Milton Friedman's "Capitalism and Freedom" the latter being somewhat more readable.
I was also heavily influenced by Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" but she presents her arguments in a very stark way that many find off-putting.
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 18:42
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I would like to ask Libertarians for a book recommendation. As free thinkers as people might be, there were books that sent you on this track. I have read books written from something closer to my perspective than to yours. Give me a few names. I want to read on the subject and see what other people in your side think besides 4 guys here in PA. What would be good but remember, something that wouldn't make me doze off which could happen if you give a book forthe initiated (like givig a Michael Moore movie to a right-winger).i don't want a book that preaches to the converted but to the ones who want to know that perspective. Please.


Two of the best and most influential books on libertarian thought are F. A. Hayek's "The Road To Serfdom" and Milton Friedman's "Capitalism and Freedom" the latter being somewhat more readable.
I was also heavily influenced by Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" but she presents her arguments in a very stark way that many find off-putting.


How'd I know you were going to mention those LOL
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 18:42
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

It's nice to have a thread where fascist, confused, and libertarian can come to discuss governance.

Got to get going to my evil, elitist game of golf.  Back later



oooooo I wonder which of the first two I am? Smile
And you lucky son of a gun. I love golf.
 
 
I believe that, like most who have attended a government diploma factory, you are just not ready to embrace a path that doesn't embrace the control of strong central authority.  
 
Until people are able to let go of the asinine notion that the government is capable of regulating the market, and that they would/could do so to everyones benefit, then all we can do play DC-tug-of-war.  What I mean by "DC tug of war" is that all we really do currently, with elections, is decide which small group of people will be babysitting us.  You guys keep trying to find the cool babysitter, who let you stay up late and play video games, I'll keep trying to convince the parents (those immovable bureaucrats that actually run) that not only don't I need a babysitter but that......wait a sec, I was going to say "it's time for me to move out of the house altogether" but the government lives in my/our house, it's not the other way around.  Those b*st*rds stole our house!  And now they have everyone thinking that it's perfectly fine they make the rules we live by and charge us rent.
 
I'm tired and I'm rambling, nap time


To be fair, unless you guys just don't believe me. I've moderated. My ideas go back to High School and  I was a literal socialist. It was actually through the government diploma factory that I've moderated.
Hows that for whack?
And I know I like to play devil's advocate and debate just because....but just so there's no confusion I'm not gung ho regulate everything. Especially when you say "regulate the market" Ive never really spoke against free markets and all that, except at first when I was pissed off LOL

And you got kind of general there. The government/system all that is screwy man. I dont know how many times I can say it but I dont love the government, cant even say I like it. OK Im rambling LOL


I believe you. You're far more willing to listen and think critically than most people who I've discussed my views with, and I appreciate that. I don't expect anyone to be converted overnight. It takes years of personal reflection to decide what you really believe, so I don't begrudge you your opinions in the least. Thanks for listening!
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 18:43
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I would like to ask Libertarians for a book recommendation. As free thinkers as people might be, there were books that sent you on this track. I have read books written from something closer to my perspective than to yours. Give me a few names. I want to read on the subject and see what other people in your side think besides 4 guys here in PA. What would be good but remember, something that wouldn't make me doze off which could happen if you give a book forthe initiated (like givig a Michael Moore movie to a right-winger).i don't want a book that preaches to the converted but to the ones who want to know that perspective. Please.


I have never read a book that sent me into this mindset.  I have read three Ayn Rand books, but when I read her two longest ones, I was opposed to her ideas (but that was mainly because I failed to understand them).

My political ideas have come from reading the news, paying attention to politics, and having conversations with people from various walks of life.  By paying attention to politics, I mean both keeping up with current politics and reading essays and history articles...I hope that makes sense.

Undoubtedly, Pat, Logan, and Anton will be able to help you out more than I can for literature.  Don't read Ayn Rand though.  Brilliant mind, but a wooden writer.


Edited by Epignosis - August 03 2010 at 18:46
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 18:46
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I would like to ask Libertarians for a book recommendation. As free thinkers as people might be, there were books that sent you on this track. I have read books written from something closer to my perspective than to yours. Give me a few names. I want to read on the subject and see what other people in your side think besides 4 guys here in PA. What would be good but remember, something that wouldn't make me doze off which could happen if you give a book forthe initiated (like givig a Michael Moore movie to a right-winger).i don't want a book that preaches to the converted but to the ones who want to know that perspective. Please.


I have never read a book that sent me into this mindset.  I have read three Ayn Rand books, but when I read her two longest ones, I was opposed to her ideas (but that was mainly because I failed to understand them).

My political ideas have come from reading the news, paying attention to politics, and having conversations with people from various walks of life.

Undoubtedly, Pat, Logan, and Anton will be able to help you out more than I can for literature.  Don't read Ayn Rand though.  Brilliant mind, but a wooden writer.


Yeah, my beliefs really came more from conversations I had with my professor and other students in a "philosophy of ethics" class than from any books, but the books helped crystalize my views and gave me arguments to support my gut feelings.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 18:48
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I would like to ask Libertarians for a book recommendation. As free thinkers as people might be, there were books that sent you on this track. I have read books written from something closer to my perspective than to yours. Give me a few names. I want to read on the subject and see what other people in your side think besides 4 guys here in PA. What would be good but remember, something that wouldn't make me doze off which could happen if you give a book forthe initiated (like givig a Michael Moore movie to a right-winger).i don't want a book that preaches to the converted but to the ones who want to know that perspective. Please.

For awhile I was a libertarian, but afraid to admit it to myself because of a number of reasons (institutionalized respect for authority, fear of pressure from peers, I could go on). 

Ayn Rand's Capitalism: An Unknown Ideal was a great influence on me and important to getting me to admit my positions. As llama mentioned her prose tends to be a little animated, but I think it makes for an interesting read. As flawed as I find her on many ethical issues, she was a great defender of capitalism and individual rights. 

That's my addition to llama's recommendations. I would recommend browsing Mises.org.

They have loads of free resources. There are some especially great, relatively short and self-contained articles there which were particularly influential. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 18:50
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I would like to ask Libertarians for a book recommendation. As free thinkers as people might be, there were books that sent you on this track. I have read books written from something closer to my perspective than to yours. Give me a few names. I want to read on the subject and see what other people in your side think besides 4 guys here in PA. What would be good but remember, something that wouldn't make me doze off which could happen if you give a book forthe initiated (like givig a Michael Moore movie to a right-winger).i don't want a book that preaches to the converted but to the ones who want to know that perspective. Please.


I have never read a book that sent me into this mindset.  I have read three Ayn Rand books, but when I read her two longest ones, I was opposed to her ideas (but that was mainly because I failed to understand them).

My political ideas have come from reading the news, paying attention to politics, and having conversations with people from various walks of life.

Undoubtedly, Pat, Logan, and Anton will be able to help you out more than I can for literature.  Don't read Ayn Rand though.  Brilliant mind, but a wooden writer.


Yeah, my beliefs really came more from conversations I had with my professor and other students in a "philosophy of ethics" class than from any books, but the books helped crystalize my views and gave me arguments to support my gut feelings.

Yeah my philosophy came from debating with my close friends and a general search for consistency I was seeking in political matters, but books certainly help you when there are arguments you support intuitively, but have some trouble articulating fully. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 18:55
I did quite a bit of reading several years ago the Ayn Rand Institute's website.

http://www.aynrand.org

Under "Commentary" and then "By Issue" you will find some interesting reads divided by subject.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 18:57
Books also require intelligence Cry
When I was a freshman in college I was interested in a book called "A Theory of Justice" by John Rawls. My poli sci prof was telling us about it and how it was the justification for redistribution and how it it even made him shed a tear (and he was a conservative guy, raised in Utah and turned down money from the government for his military service!)
So I thought damn, this book must be good. I could barely get into it and stopped LOL No idea how he got beauty out of that man's Harvard speak....and besides I know the jist anyway.
Same reason I didn't read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Knew enough to write a BS paper.
Ah college......


Edited by JJLehto - August 03 2010 at 18:58
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 19:24
Thanks. As hard as it could be for you to believe it, I'll check at least one of them out. I'm in need of some political reading lately anyway. Too much literature.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 19:28
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Thanks. As hard as it could be for you to believe it, I'll check at least one of them out. I'm in need of some political reading lately anyway. Too much literature.


If you are honestly interested in learning, I wouldn't find it hard to believe.
I like to know as much as I can about all sides (in anything).
Scary to deal with opposing beliefs but I like to keep an open mind.

Knowledge is good!
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 19:30
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Thanks. As hard as it could be for you to believe it, I'll check at least one of them out. I'm in need of some political reading lately anyway. Too much literature.

Anything you would recommend? 

I'm already well read on your side from my past experience, but I am interested in what particularly has influenced you. 

I would like to pinpoint exactly what kind of totalitarian you are. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 19:33
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Thanks. As hard as it could be for you to believe it, I'll check at least one of them out. I'm in need of some political reading lately anyway. Too much literature.

Anything you would recommend? 

I'm already well read on your side from my past experience, but I am interested in what particularly has influenced you. 

I would like to pinpoint exactly what kind of totalitarian you are. 


Well, my favorite book of all time ever was Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes.
Wink
Absolute Monarchy for the win!


Edited by JJLehto - August 03 2010 at 19:53
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 19:54
Thanks. As hard as it could be for you to believe it, I'll check at least one of them out. I'm in need of some political reading lately anyway. Too much literature.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 19:55
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Thanks. As hard as it could be for you to believe it, I'll check at least one of them out. I'm in need of some political reading lately anyway. Too much literature.


If you are honestly interested in learning, I wouldn't find it hard to believe.
I like to know as much as I can about all sides (in anything).
Scary to deal with opposing beliefs but I like to keep an open mind.

Knowledge is good!
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 20:10
Yes, I said that Smile
And if you agree, have you ever read "Leviathan" by Hobbes?

I mean its pretty much the opposite of libertarian. Though its quite dated and obsolete, read it more for the sake of it. Also, it was interesting but frankly I found it pretty weak.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 20:11
No, I haven't read that one yet. Maybe I will someday.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 20:13
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Yes, I said that Smile
And if you agree, have you ever read "Leviathan" by Hobbes?

I mean its pretty much the opposite of libertarian. Though its quite dated and obsolete, read it more for the sake of it. Also, it was interesting but frankly I found it pretty weak.

I ventured one time to, but the prose was so obtuse I didn't bother. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 20:19
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Yes, I said that Smile
And if you agree, have you ever read "Leviathan" by Hobbes?

I mean its pretty much the opposite of libertarian. Though its quite dated and obsolete, read it more for the sake of it. Also, it was interesting but frankly I found it pretty weak.

I ventured one time to, but the prose was so obtuse I didn't bother. 


Can't disagree there. Certainly was not very fun.
And you have to take it for the time...I don't think anyone in 2010 views Absolute Monarchy as acceptable.
EDIT: Well, I doubt anyone really liked it, but it was 1651 after all.


Edited by JJLehto - August 03 2010 at 20:26
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